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Topic: Greece Cannot Pay, Greece Will Not Pay (Read 8161 times)

full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
September 24, 2015, 01:30:34 AM
...

"What cannot be repaid, will not be repaid."
- traditional

Despite the five year drama on Greece and their attempts to stay in the EU and with the euro, it is clear that Greece will NOT repay their external debts.  Despite this latest "deal", the math cannot be ignored: Greece cannot pay their debts, so they will not.  Some kind of default is inevitable.

In general there are three ways extreme debtors use to extinguish debts (other than paying up):

1)  Inflate them away.  This (as well as number three below) is what most governments around the world are doing.  Printing the money.  An increased inflation rate lowers the real value of the debt, borrow money, and repay in devalued money in the future.  This is easy to do.

2)  Default (don't pay).  This happens from time-to-time.  Argentina has defaulted twice in recent years.  Greece has defaulted many times in its +/- 100 year modern history as a nation.  A large scale default tends to be deflationary, there are perils to a population and government in a country that defaults.

3)  Increase the debts!  Debtor countries, including the USA, can often get away with this as long as lenders perceive that they will get their money back (at least recently-loaned money).  This is the easiest of them all in the short-term  But, increasing debts almost always leads to ever increasing problems trying to pay (or later restructure).  Because at some point, no one will loan them any more money...

*   *   *

Of course, any country just getting into trouble would find that total long-term harm is less by biting the bullet and paying their debts quickly.  The problem is that politicians, and their electorates, only want EASY solutions.  Paying debt is never the "easiest" solution.

Greece is in an advanced state of huge debts (their debt: GDP ratio is around 177%).  They cannot pay them off, at least in uninflated terms.

Greece will default.  The mathematics is irrefutable.  The only question is how and when.  Which of the above options they will use.

Beware.  Prepare.  European debts (US debt too) are a big problem, with big consequences,  that will likely spread here.


They will pay or ww3 is not very hard to follow, anyway they will pay just need some time.
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1000
September 23, 2015, 07:54:15 AM
greece will pay. it just needs to take its time. Cheesy

Not possible. Don't have the necessaries resources. They can do everything that they be able but don't have the resources. It has been told even by IMF. The debt of Greece is unsustainable. I think that after radical reforms made from the Greeks this debt will be restructured even Germany or other some satellite country now are against this. It is not possible other solution if the EU will want that Greece come out from its disastrous situation.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
September 15, 2015, 11:12:49 PM
Well, if the EU still tries to loan to Greece, they will never be able to repay anything, as the interest gets you more dept. And if Greece is in danger, then the Euro will be too. Euro has fallen badly last two years.
One of the solutions is actually kick Greece out of the EU or GIVE them money to rebuild their country. If Greece can rebuild, then the worth of Euro would be stable again.

The loaning with Greece is dragged to a hugely long term plan of repayment. Through this and extremely low interest rates the economy is supposed to be given a chance to breathe and that's what optimists in Greece are counting on now. All around I'm seeing people believing that it can't really get much worse and that the economy will slowly rebound. I'd really hope that'd be the case but I'm hesitant too. Greece has insignificant production when compared to it's EU counterparts and on top of that, unemployment rates that are extremely high as well as a faulty educational system.

To hope that Greece will suddenly start doing better, Greece needs some time to breathe. And that time won't come with more loans. The terms of near-term repayment need to be loosened, exceeding austerity has only proven to damage the economy. It's sad that the institutions try to push for more. It only leads to Greece needing more loans.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1007
Professional Native Greek Translator (2000+ done)
September 15, 2015, 01:26:44 AM
greece will pay. it just needs to take its time. Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1000
September 14, 2015, 11:53:19 AM
Well Greece can only pay if the interest rates on the loan are lowered and the debt is totally restructured and shaved off enough in order for the GDP of Greece to rise and produce more surplus in order for it to be paid off, Otherwise at present the debt cannot be sustained in it's present force with one million servants being a burden on the national budget and one out of tow youngsters being unemployed and the rich keep evading their taxes and not investing in their country.

I agree, the only way to save Greece is to shave the debt but IMF won't let that happen.

Wrong. IMF it is the only of the three factors (European Union and European Central Bank) which agree this option. The other two don't. But I think that soon or later and after some radical reforms the debt of Greece will be restructured.

This is like trying to restructure the debt of someone who owes 1 Billion, earns $50,000 they will NEVER be able to pay even the interest.
legendary
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1183
September 14, 2015, 10:56:13 AM
Well, if the EU still tries to loan to Greece, they will never be able to repay anything, as the interest gets you more dept. And if Greece is in danger, then the Euro will be too. Euro has fallen badly last two years.
One of the solutions is actually kick Greece out of the EU or GIVE them money to rebuild their country. If Greece can rebuild, then the worth of Euro would be stable again.

Well if what i've researched is correct, there is a treaty that basically says no country outside of the EU can kick a country that's inside the EU, so they can't kick Greece outside of the EU, it's just not a possibility that they can get away with.
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1000
September 14, 2015, 01:24:59 AM
Well, if the EU still tries to loan to Greece, they will never be able to repay anything, as the interest gets you more dept. And if Greece is in danger, then the Euro will be too. Euro has fallen badly last two years.
One of the solutions is actually kick Greece out of the EU or GIVE them money to rebuild their country. If Greece can rebuild, then the worth of Euro would be stable again.

This is the intention. To give them money to rebuild the country. But only if that money go really in that direction. Because all the war made from Tsipras these last months was for giving the money for the thing that Tsipras wanted to do. Without restructuring the structure of economy in Greece no one money will solve nothing.
hero member
Activity: 896
Merit: 508
September 13, 2015, 07:37:29 PM
Well, if the EU still tries to loan to Greece, they will never be able to repay anything, as the interest gets you more dept. And if Greece is in danger, then the Euro will be too. Euro has fallen badly last two years.
One of the solutions is actually kick Greece out of the EU or GIVE them money to rebuild their country. If Greece can rebuild, then the worth of Euro would be stable again.
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1000
September 13, 2015, 02:23:55 PM
Well Greece can only pay if the interest rates on the loan are lowered and the debt is totally restructured and shaved off enough in order for the GDP of Greece to rise and produce more surplus in order for it to be paid off, Otherwise at present the debt cannot be sustained in it's present force with one million servants being a burden on the national budget and one out of tow youngsters being unemployed and the rich keep evading their taxes and not investing in their country.

I agree, the only way to save Greece is to shave the debt but IMF won't let that happen.

Wrong. IMF it is the only of the three factors (European Union and European Central Bank) which agree this option. The other two don't. But I think that soon or later and after some radical reforms the debt of Greece will be restructured.
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 250
September 13, 2015, 02:17:36 PM
Well Greece can only pay if the interest rates on the loan are lowered and the debt is totally restructured and shaved off enough in order for the GDP of Greece to rise and produce more surplus in order for it to be paid off, Otherwise at present the debt cannot be sustained in it's present force with one million servants being a burden on the national budget and one out of tow youngsters being unemployed and the rich keep evading their taxes and not investing in their country.

I agree, the only way to save Greece is to shave the debt but IMF won't let that happen.
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1000
September 13, 2015, 01:44:38 PM
Whatever coalition will be in Greece will be the same. The road of Greece is traced and cannot be changed. So every government of every coalition will made the same things. Those that will tell EU+IMF+CBE. There are not other movements that can be done.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 1217
September 13, 2015, 01:13:53 PM
According to the latest opinion polls, SYRIZA is going to become the largest party in the elections next weeks, but they will be some 25 to 30 seats short of the majority mark. Even a coalition with ANEL and Potami is unlikely to give them the majority. So what next? A SYRIZA - New Democracy coalition government? That will be a disaster for Greece.
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1000
September 12, 2015, 12:57:12 PM
You don't care about creditors but you are no one for those. We are talking about Greece. And Greece are made everything to have their money. Then I don't see nothing to do with Catalunia and with the independence of Catalunia in a thread which talk about the debt and the problem of Greece. Greece has told clear that don't want the independence from the European Union with the referendum. To not speak about the other things you wrote. So I don't see similarity in your words with the topic which are discussed there.

Can you explain better please why barter with digital currency will help Greece economy?
Pab
legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 1012
September 12, 2015, 12:33:24 PM
 I dont care of creditors,Barter has great future together with digital currency use,crowdfunding peer to peer lending
Barter with digital currency will help Greece economy,
you can look at news from Spaign
over 1.5 mln people on the street for Catalunia independence

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/11/catalonia-pro-independence-rally-barcelona-spain

USA is death in Europe there is change
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1000
September 11, 2015, 02:26:55 AM

 That Volvo and Saab are still done in Sweden,at least these produced on Eurpean market
But back to Greece,look like Greeks are doing,itcould be good example to all of us

Barter Economy with local currency


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-14/greeks-flock-grassroots-alternative-currencies-affront-euro-debt-slavery

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-29/complete-collapse-greece-reverts-barter-economy-first-time-nazi-occupation

and below not only about Greece but about Barter

http://time.com/money/3962944/bartering-guide/


I can tell you that Barter was very popular in red regime time.both iin soviet union satelaite countrys and USSR
it was very spontenous barter

I think Barter will have great future now

The barter is a old system which have no future. The fact that now is used only in the poor country or country without importance for non importance things demonstrate this. If Greece will adopt this system will not resolve nothing. Creditors want money and barter don't give money but good or services.
Pab
legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 1012
September 10, 2015, 05:46:06 PM

 That Volvo and Saab are still done in Sweden,at least these produced on Eurpean market
But back to Greece,look like Greeks are doing,itcould be good example to all of us

Barter Economy with local currency


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-14/greeks-flock-grassroots-alternative-currencies-affront-euro-debt-slavery

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-29/complete-collapse-greece-reverts-barter-economy-first-time-nazi-occupation

and below not only about Greece but about Barter

http://time.com/money/3962944/bartering-guide/


I can tell you that Barter was very popular in red regime time.both iin soviet union satelaite countrys and USSR
it was very spontenous barter

I think Barter will have great future now
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
September 10, 2015, 11:47:36 AM
...

Pab

I will certainly be interested to hear how Chinese cars are accepted into European markets.  I do understand that if *might* be easier for China to grab some low-end car sales in Greece (cheap cars), but I still would be interested to hear from ANYONE re acceptance of Chinese cars in their markets.

Chinese cars started showing up in Peru maybe some four years ago.  Cheap but low quality.  Counting buses and trucks, there are some 80 brands in Peru alone...  Chinese car manufacturers bloodbath soon?

*   *   *

HarHarHar

My understanding is that Singapore has a huge oil refining industry and is one of the top two or three transshipment ports in the world.  They also have carved out something of a niche in secret banking, although with capital controls all over the world, I do not know how that effort is going.

Hi my favourite thread on btctalk,there is nice to talk with you here

Some time ago Chinise have bought Volvo,Swedish car maker,Great mark,wondeful cars ,very strong and very safe

It was some shock for Swedish people,but thay said ,wewill never sell Saab,Saab is even better,famous becouse of Rally,same great mark and cars

Than Chinise bought Saab also,thay have investedsome money in both mark and voila ,You have made in sweden chinise cars,best possible,germans cant block sales of both mark,no against chinise

But now i know Chinise will produce in Europe some hi scars.Not big problem,Korean Kia and Hyundai are in Europe from years


Singapore i dont know so much,it is specific area,with many smart business people,mostly Chinse orgin.Singapore is some how window bridge to China,also thay are related to Australia

People you are going out of everything with these posts. Here must be talk about Greece and not about China, Singapore, Korea, Sweden or Moon and Sun. It is in vain write about those nations in a thread open about the crisis in Greece. So attention and mind in what you write.


n2004al

I think it is fair to write about other countries and how they may relate to Greece or its financial conditions.  Many lessons can be learned by looking at other's experiences.

Greece may be looking at a Venezuela-style catastrophe (I don't KNOW that, but it might be).  There are other countries that share some of Greece's problems, and we can look at their actions and results.

So, yes, this thread is about Greece.  But, relatively little has happened there in the past few days that we can really analyze.  So, IMO, it is OK to look at other situations that have some similarities with Greece as well as items like Chinese cars that *might* be coming to Greece.  And then to Europe.

Greece is also a lesson and a warning to the rest of Europe.  Greece may be leading the way re Europe, the immigration crisis there is affecting Greece a lot (along with Hungary, etc.).

Greece and the context of how Greece fits into the larger financial system is fair game IMO on this thread.

You are right. the other experiences count but at the posts I am referring there is nothing that can help of can be as a experience for Greece. I will post you here some of the thoughts that are totally out of the needed experience for Greece:

1. I will certainly be interested to hear how Chinese cars are accepted into European markets.  I do understand that if *might* be easier for China to grab some low-end car sales in Greece (cheap cars), but I still would be interested to hear from ANYONE re acceptance of Chinese cars in their markets.

How can help Greece this thought to leave the crisis. There are no money for eating there and we are talking about buying Chinese cars.

2. Some time ago Chinise have bought Volvo,Swedish car maker,Great mark,wondeful cars ,very strong and very safe.

You think that Greece have money to buy Volvo or some else trademark of cars? And you think that this is the solution for the crisis of Greece?

3. But now i know Chinise will produce in Europe some hi scars.Not big problem,Korean Kia and Hyundai are in Europe from years.

I'm struggling my mind to find the connection between this thought with the crisis in Greece, Can you? And can you find how this will help the Greeks to solve their crisis?

I can find to many thoughts like those. And those are the reason of my post.


Wow China bought Volvo? that's sad to see, Volvo cars were so robust and trusted. I guess it will turn into a pile of shit just like all China manufactured stuff. And even if its not manufactured stuff I assume they will find ways to make cost of production cheaper, ruining the brand.
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1000
September 10, 2015, 02:02:58 AM
Greece is only doing this for more money. They will never be able to pay it back. They will probably be kicked out from Euro Zone too.

I agree with this your post. Even me think that Greece will not be able to pay its debt if it is not be restructured. But I think that after some reforms this debt will be restructured and Greece will be able to work and to try to pay his debt.
newbie
Activity: 1
Merit: 0
September 10, 2015, 01:57:25 AM
Greece is only doing this for more money. They will never be able to pay it back. They will probably be kicked out from Euro Zone too.
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1000
September 10, 2015, 01:49:44 AM

And if I were a rich Greek, I would not want to pay outrageous taxes to support a worthless government soaking me for my money, doing nothing positive with it (other than, of course, enriching government employees, cronies and favored contractors).


And this is the big wrong thought you have. The payment of the taxes serve to give you all the services your states give to you. The police, the army, the order, all the public services without those you can do nothing in your country are paid with the taxes. If all will think like you the country and the Greece for the first will go further in chaos. Those thoughts (partially) led Greece in the situation in which is.
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