Greece Cannot Pay, Greece Will Not Pay - page 4.

n2004al

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 02, 2015, 09:05:25 AM

I have seen some scary statistics on how much of this debt will cripple economies who provided these loans. One of the biggest losers are Germany. So for Greece this has severe consequences, but it is..............?

Bad debt from Greece is the price paid by Germany in exchange for its dominance in the European Union. The European Union is a project by the Germans, to bring the idea of Fourth Reich to life. If Germany wants to dominate the Europe, then they have to pay a price for that. Greece is not going to be the last one. There will be plenty more. Be prepared. Grin

Once upon a time was the hate of the Germans for Jewish. It was horrible and the end of war began from Germans marked even the end of this kind of antisemitism. In our days, when racism is condemned by the civilized people i see another horrible writing that testify the infertility of thoughts and a new racizm. German are leaders in Europe in everything. Their economy is leader because they are workers people. They don't want to dominate but they are leaders by their work. They cannot grace the money for which they had sweaty to have to a lazy people which falsificate their data since the beginning to enter in European Union and then again and again to take credits in order to increase their salaries without working. And the end to be "proud" to vote no to not give their debt to the owners.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I have seen some scary statistics on how much of this debt will cripple economies who provided these loans. One of the biggest losers are Germany. So for Greece this has severe consequences, but it is..............?

Bad debt from Greece is the price paid by Germany in exchange for its dominance in the European Union. The European Union is a project by the Germans, to bring the idea of Fourth Reich to life. If Germany wants to dominate the Europe, then they have to pay a price for that. Greece is not going to be the last one. There will be plenty more. Be prepared. Grin

greBit

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Quote from: chrispap95 on August 01, 2015, 09:59:30 AM

Quote from: HarHarHar9965 on July 31, 2015, 02:24:18 PM

Well then there are a lot of times when big politicians have made huge mistakes but it did not mean that they should be blamed and thrown behind the bars, nobody really wants to be in this situation anyway. Greece has its hands tied and are forced to beg for money from the eurozone while Eurozone does not want Grexit to take place as it can be really dangerous if other countries start getting a little too involved, shit happens. let's deal with it.

I didn't say to throw them behind bars, I just said their policy over the last 7 months is a complete failure. I don't know how many people actually know that Greece has avoided to go bankrupt during the last 3 months by ceasing the government's payments inside the country. And of course know Greece has its hands tied but who is really responsible for this? Are the Europeans to blame for the leaving of 30bn out of the banks during this year or for the new recruitments in the public sector and the incomplete execution of the state budget? Back in December Greece was neither in need of a bank recapitalization nor of a so tight fiscal policy in order to keep its primary surplus in the same levels. The vulnerability of Greek economy to the political goals of the Europeans(Spanish elections etc.) is a result of the lack of realistic strategy by A. Tsipras.

Agreed that the political decision making failure was a big reason why Greece is in a mess right now, along with other factors which brought Greece to how things are now. Politicians are the legal representative chosen by people, and those people put their trust on his decisions so that means that even if the decisions aren't completely correct, everybody has to deal with the consequences. I don't think so he is having any fun when he has to go through 6-7 hour long conference meetings to discuss Greece's policy. And I hope you don't think its a conspiracy.

AtheistAKASaneBrain

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Quote from: g1974ak on July 31, 2015, 01:43:02 AM

Tsipras seems a good guy. He seems that loves his people and want the best for him. Especially for the people in need. But this doesn't matter in econmy. If are debts they must be paid. This is a rule that cannot be avoided. Even it will be some of the debt that will be granted there are to much other that must be paid. So he must prepare the Greece to work hard and to be prepared for hard times.

I also think he just wants the best for the Greek citizens and doesn't have any hidden, evil agenda like some conspiracy theory guys like to think. But let's be realistic, he should have know from the start that he wouldn't be able to get away with it. He should have know that if he wants to avoid the austerity measures, he has to man up and take the huge risk of leaving the Eurozone.

Litejavichu

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It's all a big scam. Friends bankers give money to corrupt politicians and then make laws to collect.

chrispap95

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Quote from: HarHarHar9965 on July 31, 2015, 02:24:18 PM

Well then there are a lot of times when big politicians have made huge mistakes but it did not mean that they should be blamed and thrown behind the bars, nobody really wants to be in this situation anyway. Greece has its hands tied and are forced to beg for money from the eurozone while Eurozone does not want Grexit to take place as it can be really dangerous if other countries start getting a little too involved, shit happens. let's deal with it.

I didn't say to throw them behind bars, I just said their policy over the last 7 months is a complete failure. I don't know how many people actually know that Greece has avoided to go bankrupt during the last 3 months by ceasing the government's payments inside the country. And of course know Greece has its hands tied but who is really responsible for this? Are the Europeans to blame for the leaving of 30bn out of the banks during this year or for the new recruitments in the public sector and the incomplete execution of the state budget? Back in December Greece was neither in need of a bank recapitalization nor of a so tight fiscal policy in order to keep its primary surplus in the same levels. The vulnerability of Greek economy to the political goals of the Europeans(Spanish elections etc.) is a result of the lack of realistic strategy by A. Tsipras.

Pab

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Quote from: OROBTC on July 30, 2015, 11:06:03 PM

Quote from: Pab on July 30, 2015, 09:18:46 PM

Quote from: OROBTC on July 30, 2015, 08:59:37 PM

...

Pab

Hey, if France leaves, it's all over. Presumably Spain and/or Italy and/or Portugal would fail before France, so that would be PIGS and Cyprus even before France.

If France falls Germany falls.

Then you all have 48 hours, max, to get your final preps done before the tsunami hits the USA. Smart people will want to closely monitor not only Europe, but China as well. Chinese (Shanghai) stocks are down about 0.5% as I write.

France doesnt want leave,all that EU bailouts are in fact french and german bailouts,that iswhy thay are still puting bln in Greece,problem will be when Euro will fail,what may happen if any of three pigs and greece will leave Euro

One more thing
Deutche Bank is owning derivatives wort 5x of all Eu nation GDP
it isvirtual ponzi what need more andmore fresh blood to survive

And there will be more and more about Catalunia wiill separate from Spain,Catalunia is richest Spain area,thay doesnt need EU

China collapse will be problem for China,catastrophe for westerness world

At least China will shutdown stock markets

You raise some good points Pab.

Deutsche Bank ("Douche Bank" to some of us Americans) does indeed have HUGE exposure to derivatives that could create BIG PROBLEMS if allowed to default. I just do not know much about the conditions of big European banks, I hear that in general they are at least as weak as the big American ones (which are pretty weak). Nor do I know anything, really, about derivatives exposure in Europe.

Catalunia is an interesting case, thanks for bringing that up. A "Devolving Europe" probably would mean even more trouble.

China is a Big Black Hole. No one really knows what would/will happen when China implodes.......

EU big banksand USA big banks is one big loving family,in 2008 USA banksasked for 800bln$ otherwise we will fail and without us economy will crash,EU banks came to EBC and told buy from us Pigs cpuntry debts,thay have trouble to pay,if we fail economy will crash,EBC gave them money together with estimated future profit.From that time all that austerity,bailout begin,In fact commercial banks were buying debt for profit on his own risk,so why Eurozone citzens were paying them.In both cases nobody have been asked for citzens agreements

Deutche Bank is EU leader in EU together with Royal Bank of Scotland.Libor scandal,money laundering etc

Catalunia,there is local election in Spain combined with referndumto stay or leave,Madid is saying it is iligal but catalunian dont care anymore what frauded Madrid is saying

HarHarHar9965

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Quote from: chrispap95 on July 31, 2015, 10:43:37 AM

Quote from: greBit on July 31, 2015, 02:01:29 AM

I understand that all his decisions weren't really the best ones, everybody makes mistakes. Its not his mistake exclusively, so for us to put all the blame at him. And instead of pointing fingers at people, I think more concentration should be provided on how to make the debts go away by hard work. There is no substitute to that, and I think that Tsipras is taking it like a man and handling it well, I think he's a nice guy.

Politicians are judged by the results of their decisions, not by their intention. The January they received a partially stabilized economy, with primary surplus and small GDP growth, and now their policy over the last 7 months has created a primary deficit, closed banks for about 2 weeks and even more recession of about 4-5% GDP. Moreover, they have caused a great political instability because their MPs did not support the new bailout which is going to be the government policy for the next years but they do support the goverment! That's complete madnesss!

Well then there are a lot of times when big politicians have made huge mistakes but it did not mean that they should be blamed and thrown behind the bars, nobody really wants to be in this situation anyway. Greece has its hands tied and are forced to beg for money from the eurozone while Eurozone does not want Grexit to take place as it can be really dangerous if other countries start getting a little too involved, shit happens. let's deal with it.

chrispap95

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Quote from: greBit on July 31, 2015, 02:01:29 AM

I understand that all his decisions weren't really the best ones, everybody makes mistakes. Its not his mistake exclusively, so for us to put all the blame at him. And instead of pointing fingers at people, I think more concentration should be provided on how to make the debts go away by hard work. There is no substitute to that, and I think that Tsipras is taking it like a man and handling it well, I think he's a nice guy.

Politicians are judged by the results of their decisions, not by their intention. The January they received a partially stabilized economy, with primary surplus and small GDP growth, and now their policy over the last 7 months has created a primary deficit, closed banks for about 2 weeks and even more recession of about 4-5% GDP. Moreover, they have caused a great political instability because their MPs did not support the new bailout which is going to be the government policy for the next years but they do support the goverment! That's complete madnesss!

Pab

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Below you can read IMF statment

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/30/imf-will-refuse-join-greek-bailout-until-debt-relief-demands-met

Will Germany accept Greece debt reduction,like for now no,maybe symbolic,just a little

Behind that is also fight for Germany Chancelor between Merkel and Schauble.Merkel lost a lot of support in her own party becouse of last negotiations with Greece,Schauble has gained a lot,he wants to be new Germany Chancelor.That will be nightmare for Europe and by my opinion will cause many conflicts in Europe

By the way.He is son of soldier of German elite military forces SS .His father has died during fights in War2,on Greece island Kreta

eerygarden

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Is there any question that Germany will accept debt relief? Are we not approaching a stage where minds are taught that the IMF holds the most sway in situations like this? This is one scenario I can consider.

They might disagree as is reported and the IMF supplies no further funds to Greece, leaving Greece in a predicament. It's one hell of a slow show though. Gambling in the sports arena was far more exhilarating than the bitcoin arena.

randy8777

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of course greece will never be able to pay its debts. it's kinda like a drug addict. you give him a huge load of drugs, and you'll not hear anything from him for a short time, but when there is nothing left, he'll keep asking for more.

Searing

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Clueless!

Its common knowledge Greece will never pay its loans. It is imho the EU putting Greece in its place so that other countries like Spain etc make an effort to get their
finances together and not go down Greece's road.

So essentially they will play this farce out as long as possible...so that the Banks etc that we're imho pressured into giving these bad loans to Greece by their respective governments in the first place...get some kind of return on their investment and the Greeks be damned. So the farce goes on. Bad policy decisons by the EU, so the politicians are playing hard ball to cover up their previous mistakes.

Miracal

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Quote from: greBit on July 31, 2015, 02:01:29 AM

I understand that all his decisions weren't really the best ones, everybody makes mistakes. Its not his mistake exclusively, so for us to put all the blame at him. And instead of pointing fingers at people, I think more concentration should be provided on how to make the debts go away by hard work. There is no substitute to that, and I think that Tsipras is taking it like a man and handling it well, I think he's a nice guy.

Tsipras made all his efforts and really tried to defend Greece’s €86 billion bailout deal with the international creditors. He has always made it clear that grexit is not a choice. many people question that but let's be realistic here. It would have forced Athens into devaluation and going back to the IMF for support again and again and the cycle would keep repeating nevertheless.

greBit

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Quote from: n2004al on July 31, 2015, 01:39:27 AM

Quote from: greBit on July 31, 2015, 01:30:06 AM

Quote from: g1974ak on July 24, 2015, 07:33:03 AM

For sure Greece will not be able to pay. Not only this credit that Tsipras will have ultimately but even another more bigger will help. To pay the debt Greece must have an economy that produce for itself and for paid the credits. But the economy of Greece is devastated by the lasts governments because the Greece politicians who governed Greece thought for their momentarily interests and not for the best of their country.

Europe and Athens need to sign a more comprehensive deal than before, because if they fail to do so, Greece won't even get any new loans from IMF.
I think Athens and Brussels started a new round of negotiations on an 86 billion euro bailout after striking a preliminary deal earlier this month. At the other hand, Tsipras is taking shit from Greece’s creditors to do more and include unpopular steps to curb early retirement and tax breaks for farmers. Poor guy Tsipras Sad

Tsipras isn't poor. According to me he made a big mistake since the first day he take the power in Greece. He believed that he would be able to change the mind of the leaders of the Europe, of International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank about the conditions of the credits to give the Greece using his oratory and demagogy. He believed to much in his capacity to persuade the others and thought that the others will be convinced by him. Meantime he neglected the economy of Greece which gone worst and worst during all his time in power. For this all the credits that will be negotiated from here to the future will be worsts than it would be before his coming in power.

I understand that all his decisions weren't really the best ones, everybody makes mistakes. Its not his mistake exclusively, so for us to put all the blame at him. And instead of pointing fingers at people, I think more concentration should be provided on how to make the debts go away by hard work. There is no substitute to that, and I think that Tsipras is taking it like a man and handling it well, I think he's a nice guy.

g1974ak

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Tsipras seems a good guy. He seems that loves his people and want the best for him. Especially for the people in need. But this doesn't matter in econmy. If are debts they must be paid. This is a rule that cannot be avoided. Even it will be some of the debt that will be granted there are to much other that must be paid. So he must prepare the Greece to work hard and to be prepared for hard times.

n2004al

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Quote from: greBit on July 31, 2015, 01:30:06 AM

Quote from: g1974ak on July 24, 2015, 07:33:03 AM

For sure Greece will not be able to pay. Not only this credit that Tsipras will have ultimately but even another more bigger will help. To pay the debt Greece must have an economy that produce for itself and for paid the credits. But the economy of Greece is devastated by the lasts governments because the Greece politicians who governed Greece thought for their momentarily interests and not for the best of their country.

Europe and Athens need to sign a more comprehensive deal than before, because if they fail to do so, Greece won't even get any new loans from IMF.
I think Athens and Brussels started a new round of negotiations on an 86 billion euro bailout after striking a preliminary deal earlier this month. At the other hand, Tsipras is taking shit from Greece’s creditors to do more and include unpopular steps to curb early retirement and tax breaks for farmers. Poor guy Tsipras Sad

Tsipras isn't poor. According to me he made a big mistake since the first day he take the power in Greece. He believed that he would be able to change the mind of the leaders of the Europe, of International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank about the conditions of the credits to give the Greece using his oratory and demagogy. He believed to much in his capacity to persuade the others and thought that the others will be convinced by him. Meantime he neglected the economy of Greece which gone worst and worst during all his time in power. For this all the credits that will be negotiated from here to the future will be worsts than it would be before his coming in power.

greBit

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Quote from: g1974ak on July 24, 2015, 07:33:03 AM

For sure Greece will not be able to pay. Not only this credit that Tsipras will have ultimately but even another more bigger will help. To pay the debt Greece must have an economy that produce for itself and for paid the credits. But the economy of Greece is devastated by the lasts governments because the Greece politicians who governed Greece thought for their momentarily interests and not for the best of their country.

Europe and Athens need to sign a more comprehensive deal than before, because if they fail to do so, Greece won't even get any new loans from IMF.
I think Athens and Brussels started a new round of negotiations on an 86 billion euro bailout after striking a preliminary deal earlier this month. At the other hand, Tsipras is taking shit from Greece’s creditors to do more and include unpopular steps to curb early retirement and tax breaks for farmers. Poor guy Tsipras Sad

OROBTC

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Quote from: Pab on July 30, 2015, 09:18:46 PM

Quote from: OROBTC on July 30, 2015, 08:59:37 PM

...

Pab

Hey, if France leaves, it's all over. Presumably Spain and/or Italy and/or Portugal would fail before France, so that would be PIGS and Cyprus even before France.

If France falls Germany falls.

Then you all have 48 hours, max, to get your final preps done before the tsunami hits the USA. Smart people will want to closely monitor not only Europe, but China as well. Chinese (Shanghai) stocks are down about 0.5% as I write.

France doesnt want leave,all that EU bailouts are in fact french and german bailouts,that iswhy thay are still puting bln in Greece,problem will be when Euro will fail,what may happen if any of three pigs and greece will leave Euro

One more thing
Deutche Bank is owning derivatives wort 5x of all Eu nation GDP
it isvirtual ponzi what need more andmore fresh blood to survive

And there will be more and more about Catalunia wiill separate from Spain,Catalunia is richest Spain area,thay doesnt need EU

China collapse will be problem for China,catastrophe for westerness world

At least China will shutdown stock markets

You raise some good points Pab.

Deutsche Bank ("Douche Bank" to some of us Americans) does indeed have HUGE exposure to derivatives that could create BIG PROBLEMS if allowed to default. I just do not know much about the conditions of big European banks, I hear that in general they are at least as weak as the big American ones (which are pretty weak). Nor do I know anything, really, about derivatives exposure in Europe.

Catalunia is an interesting case, thanks for bringing that up. A "Devolving Europe" probably would mean even more trouble.

China is a Big Black Hole. No one really knows what would/will happen when China implodes.......

Pab

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Quote from: OROBTC on July 30, 2015, 08:59:37 PM

...

Pab

Hey, if France leaves, it's all over. Presumably Spain and/or Italy and/or Portugal would fail before France, so that would be PIGS and Cyprus even before France.

If France falls Germany falls.

Then you all have 48 hours, max, to get your final preps done before the tsunami hits the USA. Smart people will want to closely monitor not only Europe, but China as well. Chinese (Shanghai) stocks are down about 0.5% as I write.

France doesnt want leave,all that EU bailouts are in fact french and german bailouts,that iswhy thay are still puting bln in Greece,problem will be when Euro will fail,what may happen if any of three pigs and greece will leave Euro

One more thing
Deutche Bank is owning derivatives wort 5x of all Eu nation GDP
it isvirtual ponzi what need more andmore fresh blood to survive

And there will be more and more about Catalunia wiill separate from Spain,Catalunia is richest Spain area,thay doesnt need EU

China collapse will be problem for China,catastrophe for westerness world

At least China will shutdown stock markets

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