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Topic: Gun free zone - page 16. (Read 21968 times)

vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 504
December 19, 2012, 07:43:20 AM
Found some stats that might be enlightening...

US Violent Crime Rate: 475 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/Crime.cfm )

UK Violent Crime Rate: 4,100 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf )

Notice that Myrkul did not provided any explanation for the statistics he posted. Myrkul also forged the second statistic. The second reference do not contain the data which he published.

Mykul doctored the evidence.


hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 19, 2012, 04:56:05 AM
US Violent Crime Rate: 475 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/Crime.cfm )

UK Violent Crime Rate: 4,100 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf )

I can't afford to read the almost 20 pages for the UK report right now, but I looked it quickly and it seems to include things ranging from harassment to murder, while the US statistics start on "aggravated assault".
Are you sure the comparison you are making is pertinent? Could you point me to the page of the UK report that shows the statistics concerning only actually violent crimes?

OK, digging a little deeper, the UK stats are weird. It looks like they also count murder convictions instead of victims, and they don't count it until they get a conviction.

It's possible that in order to get a valid comparison, you'd need to go through crime by crime, and verify the stats.

Ahh, here we go. On the top of page 6, there's a table which indicates that 51% of the crimes were "less serious," things like simple assault, that sort of thing. So it's not so bad, I guess. Only about 2,000 per 100,000 people.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
December 19, 2012, 04:30:24 AM
US Violent Crime Rate: 475 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/Crime.cfm )

UK Violent Crime Rate: 4,100 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf )

I can't afford to read the almost 20 pages for the UK report right now, but I looked it quickly and it seems to include things ranging from harassment to murder, while the US statistics start on "aggravated assault".
Are you sure the comparison you are making is pertinent? Could you point me to the page of the UK report that shows the statistics concerning only actually violent crimes?
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1032
RIP Mommy
December 19, 2012, 04:08:15 AM
Found some stats that might be enlightening...

US Violent Crime Rate: 475 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/Crime.cfm )

UK Violent Crime Rate: 4,100 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf )

my rough estimate says the media portrays the opposite

or maybe in the UK they would portray more violent crimes of their homeland of course

Tourism good, emigration bad.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 19, 2012, 04:01:52 AM
Found some stats that might be enlightening...

US Violent Crime Rate: 475 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/Crime.cfm )

UK Violent Crime Rate: 4,100 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf )

my rough estimate says the media portrays the opposite

or maybe in the UK they would portray more violent crimes of their homeland of course

Imagine that. The media distorting the truth.
420
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
December 19, 2012, 03:46:00 AM
Found some stats that might be enlightening...

US Violent Crime Rate: 475 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/Crime.cfm )

UK Violent Crime Rate: 4,100 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf )

my rough estimate says the media portrays the opposite

or maybe in the UK they would portray more violent crimes of their homeland of course
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 19, 2012, 03:35:45 AM
Found some stats that might be enlightening...

US Violent Crime Rate: 475 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/Crime.cfm )

UK Violent Crime Rate: 4,100 per 100,000 citizens
(Year: 2003 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf )
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
December 19, 2012, 02:45:12 AM
They can buy only handguns and hunting rifles (no semi autos), you cannot get a CC unless you're in security.

But anyone can open carry?

No. I believe the concept of Open Carry itself is quite an US thing. I don't know of any other place where there is such distinction (concealed vs open carry).

That said, the Swiss are allowed to transport their gun, without a particular license, AFAIK. Gun transportation must be done in such a way that a surprising attacker could have some time to shoot you before you react. For instance, the gun must be unloaded, perhaps locked somehow etc... I don't know the details as I don't live in Switzerland, but gun carry and gun transportation are not the same thing. The idea of gun transportation is not to have it ready for use, but just to be allowed to move it from your home to the place you'll practice/hunt with it and vice-verse.

They can buy only handguns and hunting rifles (no semi autos), you cannot get a CC unless you're in security.
Are you saying the Swiss only can own revolvers?

In the text you quoted yourself he mentions hunting rifles and handguns (which include revolvers, but it's not limited to). So no, by the text you quoted yourself, he cannot be saying that Swiss can only own revolvers.

And I believe they might be allowed to legally buy automatic rifles, but it might be more strict. Honestly, I don't know much, I just happen to have a friend which has some family members in Switzerland so he tells me some stuff once in a while. You'll find more reliable info on the net if you want to.



That nails it quite well. It's disturbing.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
December 18, 2012, 09:54:05 PM
I believe you're talking particularly about their military guns. If I'm not mistaken they can buy other guns, with different (less strict) restrictions.

But... how is this post of yours a reply to the one of mine you quoted?

Because statistics are useless. I hear a lot that swiss have machine guns and that's why its such a low crime over there....

They can buy only handguns and hunting rifles (no semi autos), you cannot get a CC unless you're in security.


Are you saying the Swiss only can own revolvers?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 18, 2012, 07:23:36 PM

Damn, that school should have had those signs.
420
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December 18, 2012, 07:12:39 PM
hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 18, 2012, 11:19:25 AM
I'm just going to leave this here...
hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 18, 2012, 11:09:43 AM
They can buy only handguns and hunting rifles (no semi autos), you cannot get a CC unless you're in security.

But anyone can open carry?
donator
Activity: 131
Merit: 100
Axios Foundation
December 18, 2012, 08:45:41 AM
I believe you're talking particularly about their military guns. If I'm not mistaken they can buy other guns, with different (less strict) restrictions.

But... how is this post of yours a reply to the one of mine you quoted?

Because statistics are useless. I hear a lot that swiss have machine guns and that's why its such a low crime over there....

They can buy only handguns and hunting rifles (no semi autos), you cannot get a CC unless you're in security.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
December 18, 2012, 08:39:39 AM
These numbers don't tell much. It would be more interesting to see a ranking of "gun owners per capita" instead of "guns per capita", although even still I don't believe any strong correlation would be found.

While Swiss may rank high, the freaking machine guns that they got:

Have disabled full auto
Have only 50 bullets sealed in a can
Have an annual inspection of the guns and bullets
Impossible to buy more bullets legally

I believe you're talking particularly about their military guns. If I'm not mistaken they can buy other guns, with different (less strict) restrictions.

But... how is this post of yours a reply to the one of mine you quoted?
donator
Activity: 131
Merit: 100
Axios Foundation
December 18, 2012, 08:34:09 AM
These numbers don't tell much. It would be more interesting to see a ranking of "gun owners per capita" instead of "guns per capita", although even still I don't believe any strong correlation would be found.

While Swiss may rank high, the freaking machine guns that they got:

Have disabled full auto
Have only 50 bullets sealed in a can
Have an annual inspection of the guns and bullets
Impossible to buy more bullets legally

legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
December 18, 2012, 04:49:00 AM
Now, since this is a gun thread, we need those numbers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

These numbers don't tell much. It would be more interesting to see a ranking of "gun owners per capita" instead of "guns per capita", although even still I don't believe any strong correlation would be found.
Guns per capita doesn't tell much. You take France, for instance, it's quite high on that ranking, showing more than 0.3 guns per capita. But I'm pretty sure that much less than 30% of French people own guns. What happens is that hunters own many guns each.
Considering the deterring effect on violence, I'd say a homeowner with a pistol and a homeowner with multiple automatic rifles are almost equivalent. But still, you can't put all guns in the same bag either.

It's way too difficult to try to come out with numbers for such things. The approach from John Lott in his book is probably the most reasonable I'm aware of, but even that is far from "scientific".
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
December 18, 2012, 03:28:11 AM


The Osaka School Massacre took place on June 8, 2001, at Ikeda Elementary School, an elite primary school affiliated with Osaka Kyoiku University in Osaka Prefecture, Japan.

At 10:15 that morning, 37-year-old former janitor Mamoru Takuma entered the school armed with a kitchen knife and began stabbing numerous school children and teachers. He killed eight children, mostly between the ages of seven and eight, and seriously wounded thirteen other children and two teachers

This week there was also a school attack in China too. A knife-wielding maniac slashed 22 children at a kindergarten. Not a single child died. Do you really think that upgrading the tools available to killers is a good idea?

I also don't think you want to bring up Japan (Japan has very strict gun control, though not as strict as Singapore). In 2006, there were 2 gun related deaths of any type in Japan, a country of about 130 million. By contrast, in the US, there were 642 fatal firearm accidents in 2006. In addition, there were about 30,000 homicides involving gunshot wounds.


The point is that banning of weapons will not stop these kinds of massacres.  We live in a dangerous world and taking away a person's right to self defense will not make it safer.

I don't see how anyone can tell a victim of a crime that they do not have the right to protect their body's using the most efficient method possible, a firearm.  For example, I don't see how anyone can tell a woman that has been raped that she does not have the right to carry a firearm.

Where do you get your 30,000 homicides from gunshot wounds in 2006?  In 2009 there were only 11,493 firearm homicides according to the CDC.

I like the WSJ's database on homicides in the United States.
http://projects.wsj.com/murderdata

----- Edit ------

You know Singapore is very interesting.  It has a civilian homicide rate 0.3 per 100,000 people of but a state homicide (execution) rate of 1.4 per 100,000.

Sorry, I was including gun-mediated suicide in cases of homicide which is pretty questionable. There are about twice as many firearm-related suicides as there are firearm-related homicides. Suicide is quite different from homicide. Nevertheless, it is worth noting that suicide has a high failure rate and the use of a firearm vastly increases success probability.

The Singaporean execution rate used to be that high during the 1990s. However, it has dropped a lot in recent years. In the last few years, it has been closer to 0.4 per 100,000. Most of that is just our drug laws. 30 grams of cocaine = swinging from a rope if caught in possession.

I was thinking that you included suicides but I was unsure.  One interesting thing is that men are more likely to commit suicide with a firearm than other forms like overdose of medication.  Men also make up about 90% of all gun related homicides.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
December 17, 2012, 10:13:35 PM
The second amendment was because they didn't want armed forces.

Loose enough wording that I must clarify Smiley

The Founding Fathers felt there were many dangers in a standing army, especially those of the type often raised by English kings.  Armies of the English kings were not necessarily comprised of the citizenry, which had often been disarmed... hello 1600s "gun control".

However, America's founders knew the lack of a national army could prove disastrous in a time of war; thus they gave Congress permission to raise one.  This was not supposed to be permanent condition.  i.e. the national army was to be disbanded following a war's conclusion.  Long term, an armed citizenry, a militia that could be raised in emergency situations, was thought to be an effective compromise that would maintain liberty and freedom in the long term, while also providing breathing room, buying time to raise a national army for war.

In addition to this logic regarding standing armies, anti-federalists in particular felt that disarming the citizenry was the most effective way of enslaving a people.  As one example, English kings had in the past raised standing, professional, often mercenary armies while disarming their citizens.  In response to this policy of universal citizen disarmament and resultant oppression, many at the time felt citizens should be universally armed.

Given the march of technology, especially the Cold War arms race, we now have massive weapons systems that render the "disband completely, in times of peace" idea quaint.  No country is willing to be the first country to entirely scrap their carriers, drones and fighter jets, just because, e.g. America is not in an active shooting war with Russia or China.

As originally published in Valparaiso Univ. Law Review, see

     The History of the Second Amendment
     http://www.guncite.com/journals/vandhist.html

Quite long, but very readable (and skim-able).

hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 17, 2012, 06:05:28 PM
Nuclear warheads are not arms, nor in any way covered by the right to self-defense. Genocide, yes.
Maybe not self defense, no. But if you have to use it, you're probably fucked anyway.

Of course, they'd be great for asteroid mining.

Or maybe planetary defense. I almost hope an asteroid were on a collision course with earth that astrophysicists in every nuclear country could agree upon, so that all the nukes on earth can be retrofitted for space and fired out of the atmosphere all at once at it.

Nuking an asteroid on a collision course would be the last thing you want to do. Instead of a bullet that might miss, we'd get a shotgun blast that wouldn't. Better to steer it away, than blow it up.
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