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Topic: [Havelock] Bitcoin Difficulty Derivative (BDD) - page 61. (Read 290235 times)

member
Activity: 97
Merit: 10

I don't think you understand the game.

1BTC goes in, and exactly (almost) 0.98btc is given as dividends.

If you hold on to b.exch (b.sell+b.mine) you are guaranteed a 2% loss (or whatever the fees are)

To put it simply, B.exch = b.mine daily div x 200. B.sell dividends = excess btc when difficulty increases lowering the amount of btc required to pay 200 days worth of b.mine divs.

BTW as anyone who has been mining for more than a week knows spreadsheets and calculations are just about as accurate as palm readings and fortune cookies.

But if you don't believe me then I'd encourage you to read/fully understand the rules and play the game as there is huge money to be made by anyone who can predict the future.

So my 30-day analysis spreadsheet of B.EXCH is in error then? Is this FINALLY your point?

...and why would anyone buy and hold (for dear life) B.EXCH? (B.MINE+B.SELL) That's stupid. Do it for short terms at a profit. WATCH B.SELL's dividends (esp. lack thereof) like a hawk... it's a HOLD or EXIT signal.

With the buy back (even @ 2% less and especially so), you can't miss.

FYI what you dismiss as "predicting the future" I subsume as statistical analysis.

I just have a problem with Panamanian dictators. Wildcard.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
There is no fixed ROI you will get. BDD is a zero sum game (minus the fees). That fact that you started calculating a ROI means you will have to re-read the OP.

All this reaction from you over my stating what B.EXCH returned over the past 30 days. Must be completely utter news to you as you've never done spreadsheets on anything before. HINT: Openoffice plus high school math skills.

If B.EXCH lost 50% of your btc over a month, would you "play the game?" Course not.
If B.EXCH returned 8% profit over the last month, would you "play the game?" Maybe yes.

Just settle down. Sounds like 20's is your guru or bosom buddy of yours.

So what.

There is no fixed ROI you will get.

But you do get a ROI, else why play? Again, this deluge from you is because I did some work and showed that B.EXCH returned 8% for the last 30 days. What is so wrong with my stating that?

BDD is a zero sum game (minus the fees).

The NYSE is a zero sum game too. Again, what exactly is your point? That no one is really making money off B.EXCH ? I doubt that...

I don't think you understand the game.

1BTC goes in, and exactly (almost) 0.98btc is given as dividends.

If you hold on to b.exch (b.sell+b.mine) you are guaranteed a 2% loss (or whatever the fees are)

To put it simply, B.exch = b.mine daily div x 200. B.sell dividends = excess btc when difficulty increases lowering the amount of btc required to pay 200 days worth of b.mine divs.

BTW as anyone who has been mining for more than a week knows spreadsheets and calculations are just about as accurate as palm readings and fortune cookies.

But if you don't believe me then I'd encourage you to read/fully understand the rules and play the game as there is huge money to be made by anyone who can predict the future.
member
Activity: 97
Merit: 10
Hmmm. Re-reading this exchange (pun intended), I think what set off you know who is the word:

PANAMA


Well, scraped from the havelockinvestments.com webstite, on the About Us page:
 
The Panama Fund
Owner and Operator of HavelockInvestments.com

The Panama Fund is a Private Investment Company, licensed with the S.M.V, Superintendencia del Mercado de Valores (Superintendency of Securities Market). The Panama Fund has been licensed since October, 2008. The Fund is administered by a practicing Legal License Company that specializes in International Business Law in the Republic of Panama.


Truth hurts, huh.

Panama is a banana republic. It's dictator, Manuel Noriega is rotting in a US jail cell captured and placed there by a non-OBAMA i.e. non-apologetic administration namely US President Ronald Reagan and President George Bush the Elder. Google that.
member
Activity: 97
Merit: 10
There is no fixed ROI you will get. BDD is a zero sum game (minus the fees). That fact that you started calculating a ROI means you will have to re-read the OP.

All this reaction from you over my stating what B.EXCH returned over the past 30 days. Must be completely utter news to you as you've never done spreadsheets on anything before. HINT: Openoffice plus high school math skills.

If B.EXCH lost 50% of your btc over a month, would you "play the game?" Course not.
If B.EXCH returned 8% profit over the last month as I've calculated, would you "play the game?" Maybe yes.

Just settle down. Sounds like 20's is your guru or bosom buddy of yours.

So what.

There is no fixed ROI you will get.

But you do get a ROI, else why play? Again, this deluge from you is because I did some work and showed that B.EXCH returned 8% for the last 30 days. What is so wrong with my stating that?

BDD is a zero sum game (minus the fees).

The NYSE is a zero sum game too. Again, what exactly is your point? That no one is really making money off B.EXCH ? I doubt that...

full member
Activity: 149
Merit: 100
I did a spreadsheet for B.EXCH buying 30 days ago and selling today:

You will get a Monthly ROI of 8.155% (nearly 100% APY.) This includes the dividends and the less 2% buy back fee. I don't know what the risks are i.e. Havelock up and disappearing, the Manager getting hit by a bus or otherwise incapacitated, etc.
There is no fixed ROI you will get. BDD is a zero sum game (minus the fees). That fact that you started calculating a ROI means you will have to re-read the OP.
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Not knowing 20's real name is not a big issue for me. Who knows the name/team of the specialist or market makers in the stock market? Probably all just some computer clacking incessantly in the corner of an office somewhere...

But really, Panama?
Did you read OP?

yes I did. And what is your point exactly?

A. No mention of Panama?
B. Is the daily % return too high for you? Too low for you? Don't give a rip?
C. Did 20's give out his name there? Didn't see it...?

Spreadsheets should be done to get a clearer picture of what exactly you are getting into. Of course, garbage in, garbage out...

Havelock is listed in Canade afaik. I don't know where 2070 is located, not it mattered. If you don't trust Havelock - don't invest in this!
2070 stated that he has no access to the funds, only Havelock. Still, since 2070 controls the dividends and issues B.EXCH there are several ways for him to cheat shareholders (a.k.a. "do the Deprived") so if you don't trust him - don't invest.
If you see no way how 2070 doing his thing right will make more money than running - don't invest.

TL;DR: Don't invest Wink
member
Activity: 97
Merit: 10
I did a spreadsheet for B.EXCH buying 30 days ago and selling today:

You will get a Monthly ROI of 8.155% (nearly 100% APY.) This includes the dividends and the less 2% buy back fee. I don't know what the risks are i.e. Havelock up and disappearing, the Manager getting hit by a bus or otherwise incapacitated, etc.

Not knowing 20's real name is not a big issue for me. Who knows the name/team of the specialist or market makers in the stock market? Probably all just some computer clacking incessantly in the corner of an office somewhere...

But really, Panama?
Did you read OP?

yes I did. And what is your point exactly?

A. No mention of Panama?
B. Is the daily % return too high for you? Too low for you? Don't give a rip?
C. Did 20's give out his name there? Didn't see it...

Spreadsheets should be done to get a clearer picture of what exactly you are getting into. But garbage in, garbage out. And these percentage returns will fluctuate every month substantially.

What did your spreadsheet tell you about the returns for the last 30 days?
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Dear JasherEnoch,

If you want to play the game "Bitcoin Difficulty Derivative (BDD)" discussed here, you MUST read and understand all explained in the first message in this thread:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/havelock-bitcoin-difficulty-derivative-bdd-430137
If you don't understand all that without other explanations, it's better for you to stop immediately playng, sell all and find another game Smiley

Alex is correct here, the minimum needed to understand this Derivative is reading the OP/Contract. The fact that you referenced mining, which is not done here at all, tells me that you either breezed through it or did not read it at all.

In order for SELL to be issued a dividend, the Difficulty must increase faster than daily dividends are being paid out to B.MINE, at least 6.5% per period (more, as evidenced by this Period, if there was no SELL dividend the prior Period).
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
Thanks for trying to answer, but it still only leaves me with more questions. My original question (rephrased): Are we going to have to wait until a new 200 days begins (brand new) then to get paid dividends from B-Sell? I understand from what I read of the difficulty scenario that there needs to be an 11.5% increase....but that does not provide an answer as to what is needed to get there. Yes there needs to be an increase, I think everyone can see that....BUT HOW? What is needed? What can be done? Are you not mining bitcoin 24/7...so why is there no 11.5% increase?  Huh

Dear JasherEnoch,

If you want to play the game "Bitcoin Difficulty Derivative (BDD)" discussed here, you MUST read and understand all explained in the first message in this thread:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/havelock-bitcoin-difficulty-derivative-bdd-430137
If you don't understand all that without other explanations, it's better for you to stop immediately playng, sell all and find another game Smiley
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
Thanks for trying to answer, but it still only leaves me with more questions. My original question (rephrased): Are we going to have to wait until a new 200 days begins (brand new) then to get paid dividends from B-Sell? I understand from what I read of the difficulty scenario that there needs to be an 11.5% increase....but that does not provide an answer as to what is needed to get there. Yes there needs to be an increase, I think everyone can see that....BUT HOW? What is needed? What can be done? Are you not mining bitcoin 24/7...so why is there no 11.5% increase?  Huh

roughly speaking, at the difficulty increase (determined by bitcoin protocol, http://bitcoinclock.com when the minute hand reaches 12), if there are more than 200 days worth of mining payouts at 5Gh/s per mine share, then the extra is paid out to sell.  for the current difficulty, it would take a ~11.5% difficulty increase to cause mining payouts to be small enough for the reserve to exceed 200 days.

no mining is actually being done by the fund, and the fund has no effect on the hashrate of the network.

(unless i'm doing it wrong)
newbie
Activity: 41
Merit: 0
Thanks for trying to answer, but it still only leaves me with more questions. My original question (rephrased): Are we going to have to wait until a new 200 days begins (brand new) then to get paid dividends from B-Sell? I understand from what I read of the difficulty scenario that there needs to be an 11.5% increase....but that does not provide an answer as to what is needed to get there. Yes there needs to be an increase, I think everyone can see that....BUT HOW? What is needed? What can be done? Are you not mining bitcoin 24/7...so why is there no 11.5% increase?  Huh
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
I have a new question concerning as to why we have not received any dividend from B-Sell since June 29, 2014. So I added up the days and if BDD started on January 24, 2014, then we are only 158 days into the 200 day period. Does that mean that we are all going to have to wait until sometime in August to start a whole new 200 day period just to get a dividend payout for B-Sell?

Check my previous post above (#468) - whether or not SELL receives a dividend depends on how much the Difficulty Increases (or stagnates, or decreases)-
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Period 15, Day 7 Report - July 20, 2014

Balance Post Divs: BTC 332.71173719

Total Units: 12352

NAV/U: BTC 0.02693585
newbie
Activity: 41
Merit: 0
I have a new question concerning as to why we have not received any dividend from B-Sell since June 29, 2014. So I added up the days and if BDD started on January 24, 2014, then we are only 158 days into the 200 day period. Does that mean that we are all going to have to wait until sometime in August to start a whole new 200 day period just to get a dividend payout for B-Sell?
full member
Activity: 149
Merit: 100
I did a spreadsheet for B.EXCH buying 30 days ago and selling today:

You will get a Monthly ROI of 8.155% (nearly 100% APY.) This includes the dividends and the less 2% buy back fee. I don't know what the risks are i.e. Havelock up and disappearing, the Manager getting hit by a bus or otherwise incapacitated, etc.

Not knowing 20's real name is not a big issue for me. Who knows the name/team of the specialist or market makers in the stock market? Probably all just some computer clacking incessantly in the corner of an office somewhere...

But really, Panama?
Did you read OP?
member
Activity: 97
Merit: 10
I did a spreadsheet for B.EXCH buying 30 days ago and selling today:

You will get a Monthly ROI of 8.155% (nearly 100% APY.) This includes the dividends and the less 2% buy back fee. I don't know what the risks are i.e. Havelock up and disappearing, the Manager getting hit by a bus or otherwise incapacitated, etc.

Not knowing 20's real name is not a big issue for me. Who knows the name/team of the specialist or market makers in the stock market? Probably all just some computer clacking incessantly in the corner of an office somewhere...

But really, Panama?
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Period 15, Day 6 Report - July 19, 2014

Balance Post Divs: BTC 334.47506316

Total Units: 12351

NAV/U: BTC 0.02708080
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Period 15, Day 5 Report - July 18, 2014

Balance Post Divs: BTC 335.89974673

Total Units: 12338

NAV/U: BTC 0.02722481
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
Period 15, Day 4 Report - July 17, 2014

Balance Post Divs: BTC 338.11462369

Total Units: 12355

NAV/U: BTC 0.02736662


Thanks or the heads-up 2070.

You're welcome - this is the challenging, but oftentimes entertaining, part of the Derivative - trying to anticipate all possible outcomes  Smiley
full member
Activity: 149
Merit: 100
Thanks or the heads-up 2070.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
I wanted to bring up, again, the matter of how/when the SELL Dividend will/won't be paid. At the base level, a SELL dividend is paid when there is excess capital in the fund (over 200 Days of Dividends at current rate).

A while ago, I calculated that the Difficulty needs to increase about 6.5% for a SELL Dividend to be paid - this is because, at any lower Difficulty increase, capital would be paid out faster as MINE dividends than the Difficulty is increasing.

This is still correct - but it assumes that the Reserve in the previous Period is not deficient. Simply, it assumes that the Period started with a sufficient Reserve (at least 200 Days of Dividends on hand).

The Fund began this period deficient - there was only capital enough for ~193 days of MINE dividends, not 200 or more, and that's why there was no SELL dividend. For this reason, the Difficulty needs to increase more than 6.5% this Period for a SELL dividend to be paid due to the fact that the fund was already deficient from the get-go.

It looks to be about 11.5% is the needed Difficulty increase for this period for a SELL dividend to be issued. For any period that begins deficient (with less than 200 Days of capital on hand), this will vary depending on how much of a deficit there is.

I just wanted to clarify this, as I told jjdub7 that the 6.5% was a constant for each period - it still is, but only if the Period doesn't begin with a deficit.

So that I'm totally clear here - I have not changed anything; this is BDD functioning exactly as it should. This is what is considered Difficulty stagnation - the Difficulty is literally increasing, but not enough to outpace the MINE dividends being paid (at the moment).


This a great time to bring up jjdub7's comment from this past week - there is a minimum increase required in the Difficulty for a SELL dividend to be paid. Right now, the Difficulty increase percentage for this period has been hovering around 5% - 6%, below the ~6.5% required for any SELL dividend to be paid.

Difficulty looks like it will change Saturday afternoon, so the report would be issued on Sunday.

For those of you that don't have one yet, my favorite site for tacking the Difficulty is https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty


2070 - if I remember correctly, there was a minimum difficulty bump in order for SELL to be paid.  It was around 6.5% the last time the topic was covered.  Is this a constant minimum percentage inherent to your model or does it change as we move between rounds?  Thanks as always, man.

No problem - yes, this is a constant figure for any Period, not any specific one. It just has to do with the number of daily dividend payments made versus the number of days in the period.

Each day pays out 1 out of 200 Days worth of the dividend Reserve. 1 / 200 = .005 (or .5%).

13 Days of dividends = 13 * .5% = 6.5%. This seems to be the mathematical 'sweet spot' - just shy of 14 days, which is of course the 'Standard' Difficulty period time period (no increase/no decrease).

So, if you're paying out .5% per day, the difficulty needs to increase by at least .5% per day, otherwise the Reserve is decreasing faster than difficulty is increasing. Hope this helps-
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