[HAVELOCK] PETAMINE - 1,150 TH/S HASH RATE (1GH/S per Unit) - page 72.

ChevaL

member

Activity: 71

Merit: 10

Quote from: fonsie on June 16, 2014, 02:09:34 PM

I also think we should ask ourselves this.....

If I had:
-Enough storage capacity eg: warehouse
-Good connections with mining equipment makers
-Technical know/how about bitcoin, PC's, networks, etc.
-Access to free electricity to get me started
-A spreadsheet that says: Bitcoin mining is going to give me ROI
-A million dollars

Then why would I need somebody else's money?? And then my coin dropped. I wouldn't, I would just do it on my own, expanding and expanding... becoming rich all by myself, not wasting my time on a forum setting up IPO's, nope, I would just go on holiday, come back every 10 days and install more miners, go back on holiday and so on....endless cycle of money, but I WOULD NOT share this money making machine.

But what if you had all that.. EXCEPT for the money? Also, why not go for 2 millions instead of 1 ?

Puppet

legendary

Activity: 980

Merit: 1040

Quote from: fonsie on June 16, 2014, 02:09:34 PM

Then why would I need somebody else's money??

Bingo. Apply that logic consistently and you'll avoid at least 90% of the ponzi's, scams and other investment traps out there.
And even in cases where external capital makes sense, ask yourself why not get a bank loan, angel investment or VC capital if the business plan is sound.

fonsie

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

I also think we should ask ourselves this.....

If I had:
-Enough storage capacity eg: warehouse
-Good connections with mining equipment makers
-Technical know/how about bitcoin, PC's, networks, etc.
-Access to free electricity to get me started
-A spreadsheet that says: Bitcoin mining is going to give me ROI
-A million dollars

Then why would I need somebody else's money?? And then my coin dropped. I wouldn't, I would just do it on my own, expanding and expanding... becoming rich all by myself, not wasting my time on a forum setting up IPO's, nope, I would just go on holiday, come back every 10 days and install more miners, go back on holiday and so on....endless cycle of money, but I WOULD NOT share this money making machine.

fonsie

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

I don't care anymore who picked them up, Puppet or anyone else...

Simple fact is, if it would run profitable, there wouldn't have been a need for a second IPO, what's coming next? Another IPO and another, again and again.... this will save the first wave of investors, but the last one won't be saved, because at some point nobody is going to be stupid enough too fall for it again.

Also, in the prospectus is written that the share holders are the owners of the hardware, yet we only get to choose between selling and letting them run unprofitably. I would perhaps like to receive those units at my doorstep, in the event that when the whole mining bussiness collapses, I can just flip a switch, mine bitcoins, secure the network and save my other bitcoins.... just a mindspin

But I don't care anymore whatever the outcome, have been having a knott in my stomach all day, and after selling I was relieved I only lost 1.65BTC, go figure Grin

The upside, I have gotten an education costing me 677EUR.

runam0k

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1001

Touchdown

Quote from: Benny1985 on June 16, 2014, 12:41:50 PM

No. What we're preparing to offer is a hybrid mining/reseller entity that has access to 4c/KWh electricity and volume purchasing power to get our own machines fabricated and significantly lower prices than what PETA quoted to its buyers. It will also have GAAP prepared statements for transparency of purchases, along with a shareholder-created board of directors to steer the operation.

I am somewhat surprised how ScryptX is performing. It should be way easier to deal with than what has been shown. Getting 3GH of mining up and running is not a major feat. If I had the kind of money they raised, I would have double that by now.

Probably not wise to criticise when you don't actually have anything in play. Undecided

Quote from: fonsie on June 16, 2014, 12:32:54 PM

We are already at 0.66, one big dump and it's blood in the streets.

There's no blood anywhere. Peta is performing well and .66 is already within the "buy" zone IMO. In fact, we're heading back up to 0.7. Guessing Puppet snapped up your shares.

Edit: Obviously I don't blame you for selling. We each look at these things, take in as much information as possible, consider the opportunity costs and make a call.

Puppet

legendary

Activity: 980

Merit: 1040

Quote from: fonsie on June 16, 2014, 12:32:54 PM

@Puppet
At first I thought you were a troll, my apologies.

Accepted and I appreciate the candidness. After all the scams and bad investments I have tried to expose over the years, I dont actually recall being thanked once even after the fact. I do recall often being accused of actually having caused the collapse. Im sure that will be next here too

.

Quote

a 50/50 div/reinvestment, is not going to be enough in the long run, so it will have to get adjusted, thus decreasing the price/share (it should have been 10/90 from the start, not a single company gives 50% dividends).

As I tried explaining for quite some time now, reinvestment ratio doesnt change the outcome.

A 0% reinvestment strategy will give you the maximum possible return for the investment in the shortest time, just like when buying a miner, but that will not be enough to achieve a positive ROI due to the far too high $/GH and $/KwH. My numbers show it would yield at best in the neighborhood of ~40% ROI (ie, a 60% loss).

A 100% reinvestement strategy will not pay out a satoshi in dividends ever but will also not be able to increase the hashrate at the same pace as the network; the mining revenue as % of investment is simply lower than the difficulty growth, so your share of the network and therefore, share value will simply slide over a long time until approaches zero and thus you end up with ~0% ROI. Its like buying a unprofitable miner and using all your revenue to buy more unprofitable miners.

Any reinvestment ratio in between will be a mix of both, but wont change the fact you will lose.

ChevaL

member

Activity: 71

Merit: 10

Quote from: fonsie on June 16, 2014, 12:32:54 PM

@Puppet
At first I thought you were a troll, my apologies.

I am the sucker that bought this saturday for 0.08/share, 125 pieces, I'm also the sucker that just dumped 125 pieces, giving me a loss of 1.65BTC.
I should have done my homework better, the more I read what Puppet has to say, the more he makes sense, a 50/50 div/reinvestment, is not going to be enough in the long run, so it will have to get adjusted, thus decreasing the price/share (it should have been 10/90 from the start, not a single company gives 50% dividends). We are already at 0.66, one big dump and it's blood in the streets.

Last IPO was not a complete success, the next one will also not going to be a success.

After doing too little investigation I was toooo excited about PETA, consider the 1.65 BTC a donation to the bitcoin community Grin

I'll be investing euros to cover my lost 1.65BTC, so I won't be feeling miserable when bitcoin hits >1000$. This will also increase the value of all other bitcoins Grin

Luckily I didn't realise a fiat loss...but it has been a valuable and expensive lesson.

Thanks Puppet, you saved me from loosing another 8.35BTC.

Also the fact that I noticed that Havelock has been down 2 times already on 2 days, doesn't give confidence, even at this low volumes.

Plot Twist: Puppet actually believes in the project and he's eating all these sub .070 shares.

Just kidding.. I appreciate all the feedback/trolling/discussion surrounding this project, i'm learning alot about ''the game'' of securities. Good luck fonsie!

Benny1985

sr. member

Activity: 391

Merit: 250

Quote from: Puppet on June 16, 2014, 11:48:48 AM

Quote from: Benny1985 on June 16, 2014, 11:28:22 AM

Oh no, I agree that what PETA is offering cannot be sustained indefinitely. I am getting ready to list on Havelock with a much more sustainable offering. But I was just chiming in to state that the difficulty, long term, is going to play out differently than what we've dealt with for the past year.

Obviously. Last year we saw nearly a 1000 fold increase in hashrate. That is not going to happen again, but if whatever you intend to offer has an ROI that is dependent on difficulty growth slowing down so it wont increase 10 fold in a year, I wont be buying.

No. What we're preparing to offer is a hybrid mining/reseller entity that has access to 4c/KWh electricity and volume purchasing power to get our own machines fabricated and significantly lower prices than what PETA quoted to its buyers. It will also have GAAP prepared statements for transparency of purchases, along with a shareholder-created board of directors to steer the operation.

I am somewhat surprised how ScryptX is performing. It should be way easier to deal with than what has been shown. Getting 3GH of mining up and running is not a major feat. If I had the kind of money they raised, I would have double that by now.

nwfella

legendary

Activity: 1610

Merit: 1000

Well hello there!

Doesn't look like confidence is running very high in cryptx right now. Share price definitely suffering as a result. No new hardware added in quite sometime. No decent in house custom-board update(s). All taking it's toll on share price and will likely continue to do so. Too bad, I was really hoping to see this project take off. Perhaps 50/50 isn't a high enough reinvestment percentage but at this point I'm not entirely convinced that even had the 90/10 been voted through that we would be doing much better Sad

My prediction for this week's dividend: 0.00171124

fonsie

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

@Puppet
At first I thought you were a troll, my apologies.

I am the sucker that bought this saturday for 0.08/share, 125 pieces, I'm also the sucker that just dumped 125 pieces, giving me a loss of 1.65BTC.
I should have done my homework better, the more I read what Puppet has to say, the more he makes sense, a 50/50 div/reinvestment, is not going to be enough in the long run, so it will have to get adjusted, thus decreasing the price/share (it should have been 10/90 from the start, not a single company gives 50% dividends). We are already at 0.66, one big dump and it's blood in the streets.

Last IPO was not a complete success, the next one will also not going to be a success.

After doing too little investigation I was toooo excited about PETA, consider the 1.65 BTC a donation to the bitcoin community Grin

I'll be investing euros to cover my lost 1.65BTC, so I won't be feeling miserable when bitcoin hits >1000$. This will also increase the value of all other bitcoins Grin

Luckily I didn't realise a fiat loss...but it has been a valuable and expensive lesson.

Thanks Puppet, you saved me from loosing another 8.35BTC.

Also the fact that I noticed that Havelock has been down 2 times already on 2 days, doesn't give confidence, even at this low volumes.

Puppet

legendary

Activity: 980

Merit: 1040

Quote from: Benny1985 on June 16, 2014, 11:28:22 AM

Oh no, I agree that what PETA is offering cannot be sustained indefinitely. I am getting ready to list on Havelock with a much more sustainable offering. But I was just chiming in to state that the difficulty, long term, is going to play out differently than what we've dealt with for the past year.

Obviously. Last year we saw nearly a 1000 fold increase in hashrate. That is not going to happen again, but if whatever you intend to offer has an ROI that is dependent on difficulty growth slowing down so it wont increase 10 fold in a year, I wont be buying.

Benny1985

sr. member

Activity: 391

Merit: 250

Quote from: Puppet on June 16, 2014, 11:16:11 AM

Quote from: Benny1985 on June 16, 2014, 11:00:42 AM

Wrong chart to look at. This is the chart that matters:

Fair enough. So what do you see ? I see 1-1.5% daily growth. Unlike anyone else in this thread, I actually ran the numbers and published the results, based on an assumption of less than 1% daily growth and 3%/week growth deceleration, which is much faster than historically, and very unlikely given whats about to hit the market (hint: Neptune, AM gen 2, BFL and some others). In case you missed it, even in that scenario, the outcome wasnt exactly very good.

So why doesnt anyone show me a simulation that does yield a positive ROI and is remotely plausible?

Quote

The key question is how fast the network is slated to grow to prove ROI. Since it peaked in September, we've been on a very steady decline. Obviously, difficulty isn't going to go into the negative, but the market has been saturated heavily enough to where network increases are likely to follow BTC prices more than innovations in chip development, since everyone is using 28-40nm technology now.

And that almost sounds reasonable, but its not. What you miss here, is that if PETA mining could be profitable with its off the shelve, 4.7 BTC/TH purchase costs and skyhigh electricity costs, then all the new hardware being offered today, and if nothing else, those private KnC/Bitfury/BFL/AM mines will be many times more profitable So the market is not saturated, not by a long shot, and difficulty will keep going up as fast as these companies can produce hardware until even they are no longer clearly profitable at marginal production costs. We are at least an order of magnitude away from that.

Oh no, I agree that what PETA is offering cannot be sustained indefinitely. I am getting ready to list on Havelock with a much more sustainable offering. But I was just chiming in to state that the difficulty, long term, is going to play out differently than what we've dealt with for the past year.

ChevaL

member

Activity: 71

Merit: 10

Quote from: Puppet on June 16, 2014, 11:16:11 AM

Quote from: Benny1985 on June 16, 2014, 11:00:42 AM

Wrong chart to look at. This is the chart that matters:

Fair enough. So what do you see ? I see 1-1.5% daily growth. Unlike anyone else in this thread, I actually ran the numbers and published the results, based on an assumption of less than 1% daily growth and 3%/week growth deceleration, which is much faster than historically, and very unlikely given whats about to hit the market (hint: Neptune, AM gen 2, BFL and some others). In case you missed it, even in that scenario, the outcome wasnt exactly very good.

So why doesnt anyone show me a simulation that does yield a positive ROI and is remotely plausible?

Quote

The key question is how fast the network is slated to grow to prove ROI. Since it peaked in September, we've been on a very steady decline. Obviously, difficulty isn't going to go into the negative, but the market has been saturated heavily enough to where network increases are likely to follow BTC prices more than innovations in chip development, since everyone is using 28-40nm technology now.

And that almost sounds reasonable, but its not. What you miss here, is that if PETA mining could be profitable with its off the shelve, 4.7 BTC/TH purchase costs and skyhigh electricity costs, then all the new hardware being offered today, and if nothing else, those private KnC/Bitfury/BFL/AM mines will be many times more profitable So the market is not saturated, not by a long shot, and difficulty will keep going up as fast as these companies can produce hardware until even they are no longer clearly profitable at marginal production costs. We are at least an order of magnitude away from that.

What if.. one of these big ''miner builders'' decide to sell their miners to CryptX at a stupid cheap price while buying loads of PETA shares (initiating a huge pump) ? wouldn't that be profitable/possible?

Puppet

legendary

Activity: 980

Merit: 1040

Quote from: Benny1985 on June 16, 2014, 11:00:42 AM

Wrong chart to look at. This is the chart that matters:

Fair enough. So what do you see ? I see 1-1.5% daily growth. Unlike anyone else in this thread, I actually ran the numbers and published the results, based on an assumption of less than 1% daily growth and 3%/week growth deceleration, which is much faster than historically, and very unlikely given whats about to hit the market (hint: Neptune, AM gen 2, BFL and some others). In case you missed it, even in that scenario, the outcome wasnt exactly very good.

So why doesnt anyone show me a simulation that does yield a positive ROI and is remotely plausible?

Quote

The key question is how fast the network is slated to grow to prove ROI. Since it peaked in September, we've been on a very steady decline. Obviously, difficulty isn't going to go into the negative, but the market has been saturated heavily enough to where network increases are likely to follow BTC prices more than innovations in chip development, since everyone is using 28-40nm technology now.

And that almost sounds reasonable, but its not. What you miss here, is that if PETA mining could be profitable with its off the shelve, 4.7 BTC/TH purchase costs and skyhigh electricity costs, then all the new hardware being offered today, and if nothing else, those private KnC/Bitfury/BFL/AM mines will be many times more profitable So the market is not saturated, not by a long shot, and difficulty will keep going up as fast as these companies can produce hardware until even they are no longer clearly profitable at marginal production costs. We are at least an order of magnitude away from that.

Benny1985

sr. member

Activity: 391

Merit: 250

Quote from: Puppet on June 16, 2014, 10:41:21 AM

Quote from: ChevaL on June 16, 2014, 10:02:45 AM

BUT I would put a couple coins in just because it might just work out, I might just win the lottery and a make a couple coins.

If you gamble some coins on satoshidice, or any of the betting sites, or by playing online poker for bitcoin, you might make a couple of coins and actually get some excitement.
Betting mid/long term on mining derivatives, not a chance. ITs like looking at this graph:

And then betting next month difficulty will be lower. I sure hope that excites you a lot, because it wont make you any coins.

Wrong chart to look at. This is the chart that matters:

The key question is how fast the network is slated to grow to prove ROI. Since it peaked in September, we've been on a very steady decline. Obviously, difficulty isn't going to go into the negative, but the market has been saturated heavily enough to where network increases are likely to follow BTC prices more than innovations in chip development, since everyone is using 28-40nm technology now.

Puppet

legendary

Activity: 980

Merit: 1040

Quote from: ChevaL on June 16, 2014, 10:02:45 AM

BUT I would put a couple coins in just because it might just work out, I might just win the lottery and a make a couple coins.

If you gamble some coins on satoshidice, or any of the betting sites, or by playing online poker for bitcoin, you might make a couple of coins and actually get some excitement.
Betting mid/long term on mining derivatives, not a chance. ITs like looking at this graph:

And then betting next month difficulty will be lower. I sure hope that excites you a lot, because it wont make you any coins.

NotLambchop

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 254

@ChevaL: It would be fine if everyone had your outlook. There's no harm in buying an occasional scratch ticket or pretending to be an investor. As long as everyone understands that it's just make-believe.

Unfortunately many here forget, and start thinking that what they are doing here is a viable approach to generating income. When said income fails to materialize, they become agitated, appealing to the same government regulators they wished to be free of by investing in unregulated securities.

This, of course, brings unwanted attention from TLAs, to say nothing of being an embarrassment to Bitcoin.

ChevaL

member

Activity: 71

Merit: 10

Quote from: Puppet on June 16, 2014, 09:20:09 AM

Quote from: BiteMyShinyMetalAss on June 16, 2014, 07:16:10 AM

Thank you for your honesty. If you wish to protect people's money, so what do you think is a good alternative to PETA to invest in?

Ive been following bitcoin since 2011 or so. I must have seen nearly 1000 BTC denominated investment instruments come and go, and I remember all of 2 that made their investors a positive ROI; ActiveMiner, which was high risk but did pan out, and SatoshiDice, even though that profit was extremely limited for investors, and mostly went to Eriks own wallet. So if you ask me now which is the third one, I dont see it yet, unless you can find ways to short sell all those junk bonds and shares.

In the meanwhile, cold wallets have grown in value ~10000% in just a few short years. I dont get why people insist on looking for maybe a few % on top of that, at a (usually) enormous risk or even near certainty of loss. I also dont get how people think BTC is even a good investment instrument. How many people try to invest their gold? A growing economy creates more fiat money, it doesnt create more gold, nor more bitcoins.

You are right but I think that for most of us it's just exciting to take that risk. I wouldn't put all my coins on an investment like this BUT I would put a couple coins in just because it might just work out, I might just win the lottery and a make a couple coins. Everything is not about Min/Maxing you know? People like the risk, people like the excitement of being part of a ''project'' but yes, if we're talking about eliminating risk/ and maxing returns, Buying Peta shares is not the best idea.

For me, just holding and waiting for a miracle got boring.. fast and i'm now throwing coins left and right on different ''projects'' and hopefully it will work out and if not.. too bad.

Puppet

legendary

Activity: 980

Merit: 1040

Quote from: BiteMyShinyMetalAss on June 16, 2014, 07:16:10 AM

Thank you for your honesty. If you wish to protect people's money, so what do you think is a good alternative to PETA to invest in?

Ive been following bitcoin since 2011 or so. I must have seen nearly 1000 BTC denominated investment instruments come and go, and I remember all of 2 that made their investors a positive ROI; ActiveMiner, which was high risk but did pan out, and SatoshiDice, even though that profit was extremely limited for investors, and mostly went to Eriks own wallet. So if you ask me now which is the third one, I dont see it yet, unless you can find ways to short sell all those junk bonds and shares.

In the meanwhile, cold wallets have grown in value ~10000% in just a few short years. I dont get why people insist on looking for maybe a few % on top of that, at a (usually) enormous risk or even near certainty of loss. I also dont get how people think BTC is even a good investment instrument. How many people try to invest their gold? A growing economy creates more fiat money, it doesnt create more gold, nor more bitcoins.

NotLambchop

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 254

Quote from: BiteMyShinyMetalAss on June 16, 2014, 07:16:10 AM

Thank you for your honesty. If you wish to protect people's money, so what do you think is a good alternative to PETA to invest in?

When told not to "invest" in a streetcorner shell game, a reasonable person responds with "thank you."
You, on the other hand, retort with "so which shell game should I invest in, if you're so darn smart?"
The answer is "none of them" BiteMyShinyMetalAss. None of them.

Topic: [HAVELOCK] PETAMINE - 1,150 TH/S HASH RATE (1GH/S per Unit) - page 72. (Read 565833 times)