Topic: Health and Religion - page 44. (Read 211023 times)

You always live in faith. Why? Because you don't know with absolute certainty what is going to happen in the next second. So, you live in faith that you will be able to go on successfully.

An example of living in faith is someone who gets on a plane. Then the plane crashes, and he finds that his faith was in something that wasn't actual and real.

Or consider the person who gets into his car and has faith that he will reach his desired destination. Then he dies in a car crash.

Or consider a person who buys a lottery ticket. He never won a thing in his life before. The reason he buys the ticket is that he has a tiny bit of hope, but no faith. The he wins a $million.

Most of these people don't realize they are living in faith, but just like you, they are.

If you want to know what you did wrong, compare what the Bible says with your life. Yes, it may take a bit of study to get most of it.

Ultimately we all choose what we believe.

If you drill down to our core fundamental beliefs you will find a host of "truths" some incoherent some sound. Not everyone is capable of doing this and fewer still actually choose to do it. Ultimately, however, at the foundation of our beliefs is a set of metaphysical Truths.

For the simplest among us this truth may be as basic and as incomplete as what gives me pleasure is good and and what causes me pain is bad. For others the situation is more complex.

If we ground ourselves in an incoherent or incomplete "truth" the idea when expounded upon is self refuting. Maintaining such a falsehood requires that we ourselves become incoherent and fractured either by avoiding deep thought or lying to ourselves. The simpleton in the example above would have great difficulties with the concept that excessive pleasure can be bad and that suffering for a purpose can have great meaning.

Grounding ourselves in Truth that can never be falsified, that is something else entirely. This kind of truth is a foundation. It is something we can build upon.

God cannot be falsified but his existence is not something that you will be able to prove or disprove to your satisfaction it is an apriori Truth. What I find so elegant about this ambiguity is that it is a basic necessity to maintain freedom.

Without such an ambiguity we would not have true choice when it comes to our beliefs. Our situation would be  akin to that of complex robots follow our creators explicit instructions and fulfill our purpose or acknowledge we are defective and rebel against the obvious purpose of our creation.  

Our current situation allows us to freely choose God or reject God. This is far superior as it ultimately leads to a people who have willingly and freely chosen God. It leads to a people who contemplate God not because God demanded it, but because we have freely chosen it.

If you have not had a chance to read it I recommend this essay by Charlton as he articulates these issues with more eloquence then I. See: Metaphysical Attitudes.

Then I would argue that the act of believing in something is not something I can choose to do. For instance I can't force myself to believe in ghosts and the more videos of ghosts I try to watch the less I believe in them because I see how ridiculous it is. Faith is not a good pathway to the truth, all the other religious people claim to have faith in their own gods and yet they would still get punished if it turns out that the real god is the one described in the bible, what did they do wrong?

Then I would argue that the act of believing in something is not something I can choose to do. For instance I can't force myself to believe in ghosts and the more videos of ghosts I try to watch the less I believe in them because I see how ridiculous it is. Faith is not a good pathway to the truth, all the other religious people claim to have faith in their own gods and yet they would still get punished if it turns out that the real god is the one described in the bible, what did they do wrong?

I question the idea that there are any "good people". We grade ourselves on a curve, but the existence of others who are worse then us does not make us good.  

If we honestly compare ourselves to a true and perfect good each and every one of us would fall horribly short in comparison.

The belief in God gives us an ideal to strive towards. With God at least we can define good and from that definition comes a reason to improve ourselves and a goal to strive towards. It gives us an ideal that can never be achieved only approximated.

Humans clearly do not deserve an afterlife of any kind. We have not earned one, nor are we in any way fit to inhabit one in our current state. If an afterlife is on offer it could only be through an act of extreme generosity the ultimate charity case.

There are certainly atheist's who behave well by relative human standards and there certainly are religious fanatics and hypocrites who behave very badly. Take away the curve and apply an objective standard of good and evil and I am not at all confident where humanity falls on the scale.

You argue "If a true benevolent God exists then you wouldn't need to believe in him in order to be saved"

This line of thought fails to consider the possibility that the very act of believing in God is transformative. It is possible that it is the act of belief that allows one to be saved not so much via external intervention but from the changes in our essence our souls if you will that become possible once we define our first principles and ground our existence in them.

''I agree that rules should follow logic. However, just because we cannot always follow the logic does not mean that the logic is not there. '' It also doesn't mean that there is, why take it for granted? Even if God is real, why follow him if his rules aren't good? If a true benevolent god exists then you wouldn't need to believe in him in order to be saved, in fact atheists that are good people should be valued more than religious people that are good because religious people are good because they know they will go to heaven and they fear hell, however atheists that are good, are good because they want to.

On this point at least af_newbie we agree.

In that spirit I would advise you to read the demographic information provided in the OP.

I agree that rules should follow logic. However, just because we cannot always follow the logic does not mean that the logic is not there.

Take the Sabbath for example. Honoring the Sabbath could be necessary to sustain and propagate religious belief from generation to generation. If a solid ideological/religious substructure necessary to sustain society then the sabbath or a Sabbath equivalent could simply not be optional if one wishes to maintain rather then consume ones society. Fail to honor the Sabbath and the young start to forget and reject their religious foundation. Abandon the religious foundation and the entire society starts to destabilize. Is this happening in the west right now? Time will tell.

You may be correct when you say we are punished for our intelligence. According to Genesis our remotest ancestors exercised their freedom and made a "choice". They obtained/ate/developed sufficient intelligence to have knowledge of good and evil. With this intelligence humans gained the ability to choose evil voluntarily. Every human inherited this "gift" from them.

The "punishment" is the inevitable and logical consequence of the evil humans now freely choose and actively introduce into the world. Why does God allow us to make evil choices? Perhaps he wants us to be free. Freedom necessitates the ability to make choices for better or for worse.

I am that I am. I chose.

My return to God from nihilistic positions, that engulfed the West like a cancer took several years... And it has to some degree purely rational basis. I witnessed time and time again "scientists", who tried to understand desert by counting every single stone in it. It was not problem of the methodology, but of their choices, of their resignation on any non-materialistic argument. Without faith in what you do, all your work loses purpose besides feeding you. Degrading you in process from human being created in His image to something more akin to beast with large cranial capacity.

Faith forms culture, culture forms civilization. Civilization gives a Man purpose. When the faith dies, so does the culture and when culture is replaced civilization ends. Then men start to die. - Patrick Buchanan

Even atheist or rather agnostic greatly benefits from moral compass of religion and faith, as it provides for social stability, hope and drive. Giving entire culture what could be described as "soul". Marxists like Fromm and Freud understood this, as did scientists like Darwin and Newton.

I come from the most agnostic, godless place on planet... And I have witnessed how the place, without faith that formed its culture for the past millenia, slowly turned to Animals farm. Youngest being the hardest hit. Every generation in western Europe is now by full third (!) smaller than the previous one despite peace and welfare and health care. As I saw with my compatriots at foreign owned factories, women sell themselves to highest bidder, while men spend all their income on gambling and paying back high interest loans. Sounds almost like Bitcointalk, right? They dont do it for any purpose, but to feed themselves.

From industrial heart of Europe, into place full of aging, fearful corporate slaves, that wait for highest bidder. Fukuyama was indeed right, his "Last men" cannot be fought on battlefield by "barbarians". However, these "Last men" that I turned my back to also fail to do most most basic of things, that Darwin demands of victors in evolutionary race. Offspring. Because they have only interests, not beliefs. As did Greco-Romans before their demise.

Thats one of the points, why I personally chose to become "born again". I have grown up among secular liberals, saw their fashionable cults masquerading pointless materialism. And saw it for what it is. Nails to the coffin of our culture. I would hate the sight of my children as the "Last men".

If secular liberalism has any future, than why its adherents arent even able to replenish their own numbers? I already mentioned, that sir Darwin was anglican, yes? Well, atheists love to turn to him as a reference aswell. Will you? For a materialistic proof, friend.



Stats, you can look at the following as a list of developed, secular countries. Or as a graveyeard of their respective cultures and tribes. It is your choice. Guess, where is my homeland on the list? The very existence of these facts disprove that you can build anything that survives you on reason alone. It is against human nature. And therefore "science" aswell.

' No it's more like you threw the man into the water and then you offer him a hand, since god created and put us here first. The arbitrary rules are still arbitrary throughout the whole bible like, ''do not work on the sabbath'' or ''your slave can be free after 7 years'' Why 7 years? Why can't I work on the sabbath? Rules should follow logic, otherwise they are meaningless.
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If the bible was truly inspired by god and god wanted me to believe in him, I wouldn't have these questions, everything would be explained there but it isn't. Why should I get punished for using my intelligence that he gave me?

The possibility of an afterlife is a binary. There either is one or there is not. Let's proceed from the possibility that a heavenly afterlife exists along the general lines outlined in the Bible. What might its characteristics be?

1) It would probably be perfect from a human perspective.

2) It would allow for meaningful action and creativity. If it did not then it would be less a paradise and more a gilded playpen or cage.

3) Due to #1 and #2 above there is not a single human being worthy of or capable of proper existence in such an afterlife. Even the best of us are far from perfect. We are all full of varying amounts of falsehood, incoherence, and evil which if allowed expression via freedom of action would disrupt a perfect heaven.

4) Therefore before any human being could be allowed freedom of action in a perfect afterlife our deficiencies (falsehood, incoherence, and evil) would first need to be expunged. Yet these deficiencies are an intrinsic part of who we are.

5) Rectifying (burning away) of large portions of ourselves even if they are false, incoherent, and evil would likely be a very painful process. It would probably not be an exaggeration to describe such a process as the burning of the spirit in eternal hellfire.

6) Putting one through a torturous process of this sort could be the greatest act of mercy possible because the alternative would be oblivion and cessation. Purification though painful would potentially allow that what could be saved to be saved.

There is a strong minority view in Christianity that feels that the suffering of a soul in hell is not eternal.

The Seventh-day Adventist believe this.
See: Annihilationism

Even the Pope if recent news articles are to be believed is a advocate of Annihilationism though to my knowledge this is a minority view in the Catholic tradition.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/30/vatican-scrambles-to-clarify-popes-denial-that-hell-exists

Finally the Jews also believe something like Annihilationism with their views on purgatory.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1594422/jewish/Do-Jews-Believe-in-Hell.htm


So yes the "arbitrary rules" are freely chosen or rejected. No one is pointing a gun at us. If anything the situation is probably more akin to a drowning man being offered a helping hand. It is up to us to grasp it or push it away.

The "arbitrary rules" are freely chosen or rejected'' Not freely, you go to hell to get tortured forever if you reject them, that's not freedom. If I point a gun at you and tell you to give me your wallet or I shoot you, sure you have 2 options but you wouldn't consider that freedom, would you?

''when He puts unbelievers to death'' You said unbelievers not christians, why are you talking about christians now? ''He punished His Son, Jesus, on the cross.'' '' it is God Who gives unbelievers the punishment that they are asking for'' There is no reason to punish them after they die, no reason at all, only if your god is sadistic and likes to see people suffer.

'' You are making your choice. And it looks like you are choosing Hell. '' Why would anyone chose Hell? Should I just kill you in real life then since killing christians is ok because I send them to heaven?

Astargath, you are so backward that it's almost unbelievable. Are you trying to tell us that if God took your freedom to go to Hell away from you, you would complain to Him in Heaven, through eternity, about how unfair He was to take your freedom away from you? He isn't going to put up with your complaints in Heaven. You are making your choice. And it looks like you are choosing Hell. If you want freedom, choose Jesus salvation so that you can be free in the only place where joyful freedom will be able to be found... Heaven.

I see you are backwards as usual.

Killing Christians sends them to Heaven where there is more joyful freedom than we can imagine in this life.



He punished His Son, Jesus, on the cross. Unbelievers punish themselves by not accepting Jesus salvation. Of course, since people can barely do anything at all - try growing another arm, sometime - it is God Who gives unbelievers the punishment that they are asking for... God the Great Giver... even though He would rather see the unbeliever choose salvation.

You are so backwards, you are simply stupid.