Topic: Health and Religion - page 45. (Read 211023 times)

So basically you are saying it's ok for god to kill anyone anywhere anytime because we are his property. I can put my dog down if he is sick and dying, on the other hand god and others in the bible killed people not because they were sick but because they wanted to. ''He puts unbelievers to death, He is keeping them from sinning more'' Isn't that taking away their freedom that you keep mentioning? Then why bother creating them at all, it would be better to not create them, that would keep them from sinning at all, wouldn't it?

''Such a loving God that He is even blessing those who hate Him.'' He could also not punish unbelievers at all if he was such a loving god, he could take everyone to heaven if he wanted to, he could also destroy hell, why does he need to torture people anyways? Your logic is absolutely flawed my friend.

Do you mean you aren't allowed to do with your property what you will? Do you mean you can't put your dog down if he is sickly and old? How much more God, Who owns everything? I mean, when He puts unbelievers to death, He is keeping them from sinning more, so that they have more to pay for in their eternity in Hell. Such a loving God that He is even blessing those who hate Him.

Stalin alone killed off more than the Crusades could have thought of killing; and that often in the name of paranoia, not religion. And that is only Stalin. The 4 names I mentioned are only a handful of evil people who murder for greed rather than religion. Greed and selfishness killed way more people ever than religion. And most of the time religion stopped the killing.

You have things a bit backward, as usual.

''what they did because they didn't have religion.'' Are you saying they murdered people because they didn't have a religion? ''The few executions done by people in the name of religion'' Few, lol. Crusades, Inquisition not to mention how many times god himself murders people. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com.es/2008/04/bibles-greatest-massacres.html
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Massacres_in_the_name_of_a_peaceful_faith

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Temujin, and many other murders did what they did because they didn't have religion. The few executions done by people in the name of religion, were done by liars who only said they were doing it for religious purposes. When religious peoples protect themselves by killing others who are harming them, or when they do it to protect other people who are being harmed, there is righteousness in that kind of killing.

Stoning people to death is far from perfect.

Islam as a perfect and complete religion. Has established principles in guarding the balance of the human body. Among the ways Islam maintains health by maintaining hygiene and implementing syariat wudlu and bathing routinely for every Muslim

Deep topics here Astargath and I may not be the best one to address them. I will share some very general thoughts, however, in the hopes that they will be useful.

1) God and the flood. Let's operate for a moment from the premise that the destruction outlined in the bible is true either in a literal or a metaphorical sense. What could justify causing such suffering? One possibility is that such things are necessary to maintain freedom via preventing or delaying the emergence of successful totalitarianism. Bruce Charlton discussed this in one of his recent blog posts.  

Successful totalitarianism would be the end of the world - literally
http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/

2) The "arbitrary rules" are freely chosen or rejected. Accepting the rules may appear to limit personal freedom but I would challenge this view and push you to look deeply into how you are defining freedom. If you are talking about overall freedom for everybody then a strong argument can be made that the "arbitrary rules" actually maximize freedom and rejecting them makes everyone less free. I made that argument in the linked post below.

See: Freedom and God

3) Regarding slavery I shared my thoughts immediately up thread. I believe the arguments were sound and do not have much more to add. To understand the relationship of religion and slavery I recommend not focusing on individual sentences of a religious text possibly taken out of context but instead look at the broader picture and attempt to answer the following in a non superficial and honest manner.

In a world where slavery was a perfectly acceptable practice for all of human history what was the fundamental agent of change that allowed us to largely abolish it?

1. Ehm didn't god already kill everyone with the flood? Not to mention all the plagues and other methods he used to kill people. How come that was totally ok but when it comes to stopping slavery it isn't?

2. Doesn't god remove your freedom when he makes arbitrary rules? ''Do not work on the sabbath'' Isn't that taking my freedom away?

3. Teaching people to beat their slaves with no punishment isn't exactly teaching people to behave better.

I have previously described the currently well-advanced totalitarian/ transhumanist agenda - in particular that it has a spiritual goal: the goal that as many people as possible will choose self-damnation because they will have come to embrace an inversion of values (the reversal of virtue and sin, beauty and ugliness, truth and lies etc).

If this is ever achieved - if The System gets to a point where it can engineer damnation by rendering free agency ineffectual: then that will be the end of the world.

I mean, that would be a point at which God would bring to an end the 'experiment' of human life on earth. That is what our loving Heavenly Father would surely do - because to have his children born into the certainty of damnation would be an evil that could be avoided by ending the world.

I don't know whether it is, in fact, possible to engineer damnation - perhaps it is not. Perhaps it is just a foolish dream of the forces of evil, and they are wasting their time in trying to achieve it. (I incline to this interpretation myself.)

But if it is possible, then it will not be allowed.

Which implies that at present, since the world continues, it is not possible to engineer damnation - and that we are wholly responsible for our choices.

And that, as a society, we have firmly and decisively chosen evil over Good: specifically, have chosen to assume the incoherent nihilism of materialism over the reality of the divine.

You are virtue signaling here Astargath. BadDecker in no way defended slavery. He simply pointed out the reality of human evil. Slavery is an evil we inflict on ourselves. How do you eliminate an evil that is voluntarily and freely chosen. There are only three ways.

1) You exterminatiate the evil which in this case would involve extermination of the human species.

2) You remove the freedom of the evil parties essentially making them slaves to your will which is morally problematic when the goal is to eliminate slavery.

3) You teach people to behave better. If the students are especially slow the process of change may take a very long time.

On Slavery
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/305549/jewish/Torah-Slavery-and-the-Jews.htm

The fact that God can do anything doesn't have anything to do with the way He decides to do it, or what He decides to do.


How can I imply this in the face of the fact that God IS stopping slavery?


God is doing it.


God is love for all people. The way He is stopping slavery allows people to live in freedom, which allows them to become slaves if they want as some people do want, and allows the slave-owners to show love for their slaves, and allows all people to show love for God. But if you don't even understand that God exists, how can you expect to understand the why's and how's of anything that He does?


Actually, slavery is NOT almost gone in Spain. After all, if Spain wanted freedom for the people, they would allow Catalonia to secede. As it is, the Spanish Government would lose the tax money that the Catalonia people pay. It's slavery, even though it might be limited slavery.


But how do you remove slavery from a world full of people, who entirely agree with owning slaves, and with the right to become a slave (indentured servant) if they want, without taking their freedom away from them? Everyone agreed with slavery, especially with the fact that some forms of slavery benefited many people. It was inbred among the people back when God's slavery words were penned.

Today, Morocco, Western Sahara, and Mozambique have laws against slavery that they don't enforce. Some slaves and masters in those regions understand slavery as a way of life. You can talk freedom to those people until you are blue in the face, and they just don't understand. THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF FREEDOM.

God's idea is to work with people for salvation for the soul. If He has to work with slavery to get the slavers to treat the slaves better, and to do it with salvation in mind, and to do it with as much freedom in mind as possible, how in the world else is there to go about it? You simply aren't looking at the practicality of it.

Furthermore, do you think that the USA is free? Everybody talks about freedom in the USA. But few people want real freedom. If they did, they would own a whole lot more guns, and they would force the US Government to uphold the 2nd Amendment completely. Watch this freedom video and listen to the words real good. This is what the whole free world is about. You simply don't know the concepts that you are talking about.

Freedom Speech Easy Rider

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc11mJGre10



Actually, it is your religion of limited freedom, and the religions of people like you that is deluded. Wake up and see that you haven't really understood what is going on in the world and life, and that true freedom has to do with working with the way things are, rather than against them.