Topic: How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World - page 23. (Read 8965 times)

I don't have to do anything. I proofed you wrong many times and gave you arguments why your assumptions are not correct. If you keep asking the same questions without accepting the answers this will lead to nothing. The problem is that you read something about the USD and are not able to adapt this system to the bitcoin. Because you are not able to adapt it you say that bitcoin is not existent and a scam. Only you don't understand that the problem is on your side and not on the side of bitcoin.

I agree with you that snowshow is a troll/shill and likely disingenuine and spreading misinformation and disinformation... and yeah, maybe one day soon he will be banned.. .. perhaps? perhaps?

And, yeah perhaps he is a ban evader posting .. seems like someone had already pointed out the similar language.. so yeah.. his/her/its days are likely numbered.


Well yeah.. I already said that we are likely getting into repetition.

Someone paying me is a pretty lame accusation.. You must be thinking about the situation of ur lil selfie.


You never really stopped responding.


No you don't.  You have no hope if you actually believe enough of your bullshit to remain a no coiner.. however, I suspect that you receive your posting payments in bitcoin.  Hopefully, you are HODLing them... for your own good... not that you are likable or an empathetic character or anything like that.


My previous responses were attempts to be related to the topic... just to make the issues relateable in terms of value..

You asserted that bitcoin has no value, so I was presenting various scenarios to help to show ways of considering value that would be applicable to people in differing circumstances.. or at least attempting to illustrate some of those kinds of varying situations in which people might find themselves when attempting to consider how bitcoin may or may not be valuable to them or how they might be able to extract value out of it.   


It is not just other investors that give bitcoin value, but also the varying network effects that are continuing to build and bring confidence in the system spreading and being adopted.

Sure in a simple way you are correct that someone else has to perceive value and bring a perception of value in order for me to sell BTC to them in 2022 at $30k-ish when I may well have bought the same coin in 2015 for around $250.  So for sure we use price as a way to measure how everyone is valuing bitcoin... or satoshis or whatever unit we want to use as our way of measuring our transactions once we make it.


I don't see what purpose comes from me having to explain how bitcoin retains its value.  There are potential problems in investing in Tesla if you are talking about buying shares and what kinds of shares that you buy.  There are also problems with fiat in terms of value tending to be inflated away.. causing the currency to become less valuable with the passage of time, so whether or not these two systems that you point out have their own independence from having rely upon new investors as compared to bitcoin seems to be besides the point to a large degree.. even if you want to speculate the new entrants into bitcoin (or the lack thereof) as being some kind of fundamental differentiating point that causes bitcoin to have less value than either the Tesla or the fiat example... Bitcoin has other benefits and values as I have already described, and if I have not sufficiently and adequately described them to your liking, then so what?  It seems that I have described enough for you to get the fuck off of zero if you are still on zero after my previous posts... to the extent that you may have read them.


You are repeating yourself, and what you are saying does not seem to be true.   I already addressed some of the various ways that bitcoin has value.. and you continue to want to ignore matters.. which is not going to be good for you to continue to stay on zero... but hey.. you choose your own allocation or lack thereof.. it's your choice.



You may be partially correct, but it's been working out pretty good so far including that a lot network effects continue to build in bitcoin.. so with the passage of time, there continues to be greater and greater adoption.. which surely there are network effects which have been described by Metcalfe principles.. which seem to be somewhat relevant to bitcoin, even if it might not have been specifically designed to address bitcoin's adoption and expansion.


I don't really know how it works beyond what I have already said... so yeah, you might be correct.  We might all be fucked at some point, but I still think that it is one of the greatest asymmetric bets that normies (regular people) have been able to have in front of them including that it seems to be facilitating the greatest wealth transfer in history.. so hopefully your .001% (or whatever the appropriate probability assignment?) scenario is not correct.

Everyone please STOP feeding the troll and STOP replying to his messages!
Snowshow is just one more liar with lot of free time, and he is doing ban evasion Antithesis = Antikvark = Fxsurfer (banned).
He doesn't know anything about Bitcoin or economy, and he imagines to be some kind of protector from evil myth, while supporting people like Warren Buffett.
If he can say that Bitcoin is a myth, than I can say that Snowshow is also a myth, something like unicorns.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth

Snowshow is a Myth and not Real.

However, that is only your opinion; and there is no evidence to support your claims. Repeating the same statements over and over does not make them true.
There is no need for me to "sell a story" or to scam anyone to get in or out of the system. The Bitcoin system is there, and it has been there for more than 13 years. It is available to everyone, and it works. People are not forced to participate in the system. That is the beauty of decentralized currency, you can do whatever you want and no one can stop you. Those are the facts. Your claims are mere fantasies, and reality denies them. You can either accept reality or stay in your fantasyland. The choice is yours.

One of the great things here is that no one has to prove anything to anybody else.

If we were trying to change some kind of practice or procedure or to decide who is correct about a dispute, then there would be burdens of proof for the person trying to make the change or to convince that a change is necessary or even to show which side is correct within a dispute.

But here we do not have that... there is no need for a resolution.

You seem to be trying to argue why bitcoin is not valuable relative to other systems (such as existing fiat systems that you seem to believe are valuable or even more valuable), and you might be correct or you might not be, and in the end, it does not matter too much because you can make your choices about how you want to go forward in the world - how you want to spend your time and your money and whether or not you want to invest in bitcoin as compared with investing in other assets.

To the extent that you are being genuine, it is difficult to believe that you are, because you are claiming to have some kind of unique and educated perspective, but ONLY you seem to agree with your own points to the extent that you have anything that means anything.

So, sure it is possible that you might be the ONLY one that is correct, but it seems that the overwhelming number of folks who have been studying bitcoin have come to recognize and appreciate value within the bitcoin system that causes some gravitation of further value into bitcoin, and so with the passage of time, it seems that more and more people are going to continue value bitcoin, and they might not even know why they are valuing bitcoin except for the fact that other people are valuing bitcoin.. so in that regard, it seems that Gresham's law principles are going to cause more and more value to gravitate into bitcoin - especially since bitcoin seems to be the soundest of monies that have ever been created - so the various inefficiencies of other monies will likely continue to flow into bitcoin, and the monetization of other goods will likely continue to gravitate into bitcoin.

Even though much of the monetary value is likely to continue to flow into bitcoin and it could take 20, 50, 100 or more years for a lot of the current inefficient monetizations to flow into bitcoin, there are still going to be ways that assets, property, goods and services are going to retain some value that is not monetary value but other ways that they are valued.... such as your earlier apple example.  I cannot eat a bitcoin, so if I want an apple, I am going to need to exchange something for that apple, which may well end up being bitcoin - if I end up having nothing else that I am able to exchange for it and in a world in which all of the monetary systems have flowed into bitcoin.

In the end, you can choose where to hold your value Snowshow, and surely each of our choices have the potential to have quite differing consequences, and I am not even saying that you are going to be wrong if you choose to remain a no coiner.. even if 20 years down the road, you might realize that you could have done better by having had chosen to take a more aggressive approach towards accumulating bitcoin, which I already mentioned is not necessarily an all or nothing proposition.. and anywhere between 1% and 25% allocation would be a good place to start if you are still currently on zero.. the rest of your balancing of individual considerations should also be accounted, and you are not interested in those kinds of matters anyhow, and so why should I repeat things that I already mentioned?




You are correct that there are a variety of ways that people get benefits, and if bitcoin has value (which we seem to have establish that it does and that the value of bitcoin has grown through the years), then bitcoin can be exchanged for those other various goods and services that you mentioned above.  People can choose how much bitcoin to exchange, and if they do not value bitcoin, then another medium of exchange will need to be found, so surely bitcoin is not going to work in every transaction - and especially bitcoin is not going to work if the counter party does not recognize it as valuable...

It seems to me that the longer bitcoin has been around, the more places and people and institutions that seem to recognize bitcoin as having value so may well be agreeable to entering into a direct exchange; however, there may well be some cases in which I want to buy that piece of property, and they only recognize dollars as valuable, so then I have to exchange my bitcoin for dollars before I am going to be able to acquire that piece of property.


Well.. if bitcoin loses its value, then I will need more of it to be able to buy any of the goods and services that I want to purchase with it.  You are proclaiming that some shenanigans are going on that appear to be like a pyramid scheme going on in bitcoin, which you seem to not know what the fuck you are talking about.. but of course, you can believe what you like.  In any event, history seems to show us that the longer that you have been into bitcoin, the more likely that bitcoin is either going to have a similar or a higher relative value than it had earlier... so of course, if you have not been into bitcoin long enough then you might not have been able to realize an appreciation of the value of your bitcoin, and your forum registration is ONLY two months, so it could be possible that you have not been in bitcoin for long enough..

So maybe we have to go back to a longer example, such as myself.  Let's say hypothetically if between 2013 and 2017, I ended up acquiring a total 10 bitcoin, and it cost me around $10k to accumulate those 10 BTC.. so that is a cost of $1k per BTC.

Right now, I am not in any kind of desperate state regarding the BTC price because my profits are quite extensive (in the area of 30x on average if we are considering the current price of $30k per BTC).  so I have options with those 10 BTC in terms of how to spend them, and if some folks do not want to accept my BTC, then I could incur some extra costs in order to be able to get dollars or whatever it is that they would like to exchange with me for me to get what I want to get with those 10 BTC or some fraction of a BTC.. for example, if I want to spend 0.0001 BTC on a cup of coffee.. or an apple.

Another hypothetical person might not have gotten into bitcoin until the 2018 to 2020 time period, and that person might have ended up ONLY being able to acquire around 1 BTC for the similar amount of $10k investment, so that person ends up having a $10k per BTC cost per BTC.. and currently with our BTC prices at $30k, such an investor might not really be in the mood to spend  his/her bitcoin yet because s/he would just like to continue to stack sats and to keep building his/her BTC stash because s/he believes bitcoin will continue to go up in price, and maybe through the next 5 to 10 years s/he might be able to acquire another 0.2 BTC or maybe another 0.5 BTC depending on how much s/he is able to continue to invest into BTC with the passage of time and how much the BTC prices change during that ongoing investment period - whether the BTC prices go up or not (and many of us here seem to presume that on a longer timeframe BTC prices continue to have decently strongly likely chances to continue to go up with the passage of time, even though in the shorter time periods, it might not be so clear about how much BTC prices might go up or down).

Of course, you Snowshow sound as if you have been possibly studying bitcoin for longer than your forum registration date (which is only two months ago), but I can still appreciate how you may well feel confused or even not appreciating bitcoin's price going up with the passage of time if you have gotten into bitcoin in the past 2 years, it is possible that your BTC holdings could be under water at the moment. 

Surely, bitcoin has already had a history of showing that it can take a decent amount of time to appreciate in value, and I have many times mentioned in the forum that I had portions of my bitcoin (the ones purchased at $1.2k) that were under water for nearly 3.5 years from November 2013 to March 2017 before they started to come above water, and surely part of the saving grace could be ongoing buying that ends up bringing down the average price per BTC and maybe even raising the cost per BTC with other mistakes that are made along the way, too.  And, so maybe part of the point is that it can take a while for investment conviction to pay off and even to start to feel either decently large BTC compounding value or just have been able to accumulate enough with the passage of time and to have had enough time pass that the price has actually risen.. again getting back to timeline considerations which is also ONLY just one of the factors to consider regarding both getting into bitcoin and how much and how to allocate into it.

You can continue to speculate that bitcoin has no value and you can continue to not buy any bitcoin, or you can get the fuck started with some level of investment.  I would imagine that in 5-10 years, history is not going to look kindly upon folks who knew about bitcoin in these times, and failed/refused to at least not take some kind of initial meaningful stake within their means rather than just ongoingly blinding themselves (and naysaying) to what seems to actually be happening in the world and that bitcoin should at least serve as some kind of hedge to other current systems, even if you may well continue to retain some skepticisms in regards to how bitcoin is retaining its value relative to other possible investments that you could make in these here seemingly ongoing trying times.

You have to prove I am wrong. Basically, you have to prove that debt and borrowers don't exist in the fiat currency system. And that people are able to benefit within the bitcoin system. You see how simple it is? Saying I am wrong doesn't mean I am.

Here we go again. Economic resources in the form of good, services and labor is what benefits people. Bank deposits/banknots that grant access to borrower's goods, services and labor is what benefits people. Capital also benefits people. Real estate benefit people. Nothing of the sort exist in the bitcoin system. That's why people must run out of it. They run out of it by scamming new investors into it. And they do that by spreading disinformation that value/money asset exists in the bitcoin system.

Yes, exactly. If Bitcoin did not benefit people, it would not be where it is today. Get it?

If you think you are smarter than everyone else then I can't help you. These are official definitions and you can fight them as you want, it will still not change that you are wrong.

Medium of exchange is something that benefits people otherwise it wouldn't become such a medium.

Modern money is still something that benefits people. Those who define modern money as intrinsically worthless, are clueless of what money is. Because, it is the evidence of money what is intrinsically worthless. Evidence of money is data about quantity and name. Those are written digitally or on paper as a dozen of alphanumeric symbols - which are indeed intrinsically worthless. Modern money is for e.g. debt. Evidence of that debt are alphanumeric symbols written on bank deposit accounts or banknots. These are intrinsically worthless. But debt itself is valuable because it provides benefit to people when it is paid, as I have shown many times in this topic.

Alphanumeric symbols in the bitcoin system create the illusion of money. They are supposed to trick people into believing that there's something valuable in the system. But of course, that's not the case. That's why not a single human being on this planet is able to benefit within the bitcoin system. This system is simply a means to trick people out of their valuable things. An of course, as such, it is beneficial to scammers. Or to those that were tricked into the system and are now desperate to run out of it.

In the same way as someone can benefit from mutual funds, index funds or exchange-traded funds.

Basically, anything that has some economic value and can be traded is considered an asset. Even Pokemon cards can be considered an asset... Do you see any personal benefit in Pokemon cards? But unlike Pokemon cards, Bitcoin actually has a real-life function (transfer of value without a middle man or a banking system) so there's a lot more going on than just looking pretty.

For sure, even though it seems to me that I have adequately and sufficiently responded to your various points, it could well be that we are just talking past one another.

And it could be the case that you have sufficiently and adequately outlined a deep, profound and meaningful insight regarding a value appreciation flaw in the whole bitcoin system. .. so in that regard, you are smart about the whole matter of getting in and out of bitcoin in ways that I do not sufficiently understand - especially if we might be excluding the participation of aliens who are not able to get their value into the bitcoin system.

I already mentioned that it seems to me that even no coiners may well be able to benefit from the existence of a bitcoin, system, but you seem to want to talk about ways to get value into bitcoin and out of bitcoin, and I hardly even understand what other points I can attempt to flesh out that is going to help you or anyone else in this regard.

Given my own time constraints and limitations on patience, I did my best to outline various considerations that I believe to be relevant to the topic, and you still insist that I am missing something in such a way that you believe that it might be fruitful for us to continue to bat around ideas... but I must bow out, because all I am likely to do is repeat ideas that I already said.. so in that regard, I will just stand behind the points that I have already made.. and if you have any questions or concerns about points that I have made, then feel free to shoot away.. otherwise, I doubt that anything further I am going to say will be helpful in dealing with the level of abstraction (that I apparently do not sufficiently understand) that you would like to pursue in terms of your ongoing bitcoin existentialism explorations.. to the extent that they are even genuine concerns rather than merely abstract ideas that have no real world application.

IF you want to educate yourself before making claims about currency I advise you to read here: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/currency.asp


Meaning there is no benefit in a currency before you exchange it meaning you get new people in the system.

It is the same for Bitcoin, Dollar, Euro etc.

Meaning the value of bitcoin is quite high even if you do not believe it. The value is derived from the amount of people that want to enter the system.

You are presuming a fact that does not exist.

If no one wants to invest into bitcoin or inject capital into bitcoin, then the presumption is that bitcoin goes to zero, and I would be stuck with whatever amount of value that I had invested.

I will agree with you Snowshow, that anything is possible, including the scenario that you present.

However, I will also state the case that any kind of investment that we make into anything, whether bitcoin or any other asset/currency, we should try our best to invest based on the various probabilities that we assign to various scenarios, and so maybe the scenario that you outline has about a .001% chance of happening at best, so my investment should account for that.

Now if you are making the mistake of assigning 1% to 10% probabilities to the scenario that you outline, then I would suggest that you are way overassigning such a probability to such an event that is way less probable than you are making it out to be.  

If we take you at your word Snowshow, and you are actually genuinely worried about the non-existence of bitcoin (and therefore its non-value) then you seem to be engaging in even a worse fallacy than the one that I have outlined above because you seem to be placing some higher level of likelihood that bitcoin is either non-existent or worth zero... you seem to be assigning way higher odds than 10% .. maybe greater than 50%.. or even you are talking as if you are 100% sure.. which surely causes you to appear like a looney when you are likely presenting a scenario to be 100% true when in the real world that seems to be outside of your grasp your scenario is more likely to only have about a .001% chance at best of being true.  

Of course, you can proclaim that I am the one who is delusional with my assignment of .001% odds at best, and surely we should be able to agree to disagree, and I might even concede that I got my odds right, and I gave .001% odds to a scenario that had really had 5% odds, but I am not going to go higher than that, and for sure, I am just giving the benefit of the doubt to even say that the odds could be as high as 5%... for sure I am not going into your looney land assignment of odds that seem to be approaching somewhere in the ballpark of certainty that you claim to know more than other people based on your profound brain abilities... or something like that.

You are really going to get fucked if you are really investing in that kind  of a way because bitcoin continues to be one of the best upside asymmetrical bets that have ever been available to normies (presuming that you may well be a normie).  In other words, you do not even need to invest much in bitcoin in order to have the potential to financially profit stupendously and yeah, we can poo-poo profits all that we like, but the essence of the matter is that if you have profits, then you have options and you can choose however you like to use those profits or not to use them.  If you do not have profits then you presumptively have fewer options.

I can even provide a brief overview of my own investment into bitcoin that started in late 2013.  Initially, I did not really know what bitcoin was and I thought that it might be a good hedge against the dollar, so my initial allocation into bitcoin was intended to be invested over the next 6 months while I looked into the matter.  After my first 6 months investing into bitcoin, I pretty much decided to provide myself with another 6 months that had a similar allocation as the first 6 months, and so by the time I got to the end of my first year investing into bitcoin, I had been studying and considering the matter and towards the end of the second 6 months, I decided that I would aim for an allocation that would be about 10% of what I considered to be the value of the quasi-liquid portions of my total investment portfolio.  

Towards the end of 2014, I had pretty much reached my 10% allocation, so at that point, I had considered myself to have had been sufficiently allocated into bitcoin and there was really no need to allocate more than that... however, many of us realize that the end of 2014 and the whole of 2015 saw BTC prices that had bottomed out and had stayed pretty much in the mid-$200s for most of that time.

The punchline is largely that I had decided to largely just continue dollar cost average investing into bitcoin through 2014 and 2015 and by the time the end of 2015 came, I had ended up overallocating into bitcoin because my amount had reached about 13.5%... so in that sense, it seemed to me that overallocated had given me options to be able to have flexibility with that extra 3.5% that I had into bitcoin... - nonetheless, BTC's price performance between late 2015 and 2017 had largely been UP, so in that sense I had reconsidered the way that I would manage my BTC holdings in such a way to just allow my winners (meaning BTC) to ride rather than reallocating.. and so largely that has meant for me that my BTC holdings had gone up to nearly 90% of my overall holdings and then corrected back down to 45% and then returned back to somewhere in the 80% and 90% arena..

Sure, I engaged in some other portfolio managing practices along the way, but in the end, the BTC holdings end up giving more options because it's no real skin off of my back because all along I pretty much already authorized myself to allocate up to 10% and then I just allowed my extra 3.5% allocation just to continue to ride.. and sure it seems that I have had various times of shaving off various profits at various places along the way.. and it seems to me that any of the profits that i had been shaving off had mostly been in connection with the 3.5% extra allocation. and not even really meaningfully depleting that amount because it is already allocated and it is drawn from from time to time when needed.. or just when wanted or just  giving more options.

Another thing would be for me to consider if there might be some need to reallocate some of the BTC.. and to maybe give greater weight to the various going to zero scenarios, and sure some of the shavings off of profits might end up  going into various other kinds of investments like property and some other quality of life matters (that might end up falling into the category of consumption rather than investment), so yeah, maybe perspectives evolve with time and how many additional options might have come from the degree to which profits are present and how those profits have been managed including accounting for various other aspects of life that include making sure that cashflow, expenses and even emergency funds are available too.  .. even during periods in which BTC's price performance (and direction) seems to be going down rather than up.

As I already mentioned the number is mostly irrelevant because the units are divisible.. and so surely the number 21 million ends up working from 50 coins mined every 10 minutes and then a difficulty adjustment every 2016 blocks (about every two weeks) and a halvening every 210k blocks (which would thereby take about 4 years).. so by the time the first halvening takes place - half of the bitcoins are already mined which adds up to 10.5million coins.. and by the time we get a halvening every 4 years and we add up all of the halvenings by the time we get down to the smallest unit, we have 21 million coins by that time.  

Surely other numbers could have worked out too.. but it really did not matter too much.. but once it was set, then it was set.. and the only real way to perhaps increase the supply would be to increase the number of digits.. which is not really increasing the supply but instead making the existing units more divisible.

It seems that I also already addressed the anonymity matter too, which seems to be a good thing in terms of establishing decentralization.. and getting the ball rolling in a pretty fair way.

Such guy has no control over bitcoin anymore ---at least not that we know of because we do not know if he might still be involved in bitcoin because like you said, he's anonymous.. amazing right?  hahahahaha.. no one to attack and blame, except in the abstract like you are doing Snowshow.. to try to make the whole thing seem more scary than it is.. which is far from convincing... no matter how much you scream it out and/or repeat it..



Ok... sure.. fair enough, even though the amount of electricity or the amount of resources put into bitcoin is not really enormous based on the value provided... and also the decisions about whether to buy electricity and invest resources are at the individual level (referring to miners and node operators)


Individuals make their own calculations about whether they believe that they can benefit or not by participating in bitcoin at whatever level they want to.. whether they want to mine, run a node, develop, accumulate bitcoin, trade bitcoin, build other resources around bitcoin, spend bitcoin or develop retail services to accept bitcoin, develop financial instruments around bitcoin, or even government recognition and adoption.  No one is forcing anyone to get involved in bitcoin, but bitcoin has built in incentives to inspire people to choose to invest time and resources into bitcoin.  Surely, some people have already profited from bitcoin and some people have lost money too... but what else is new.. some people are better at investing their time and resources than others.

Sure, there could end up being a rug pull at any time in bitcoin, but the momentum (and various network effects) seems to be continuing to build on an ongoing basis... You can bet against bitcoin and say nothing is there, but the empirical facts (and even logic) seem to be going against you and your claims Snowshow ..


Your test seems to be pie in the sky made up bullshit.. with made up parameters.

Do you know what that is called?  A strawman argument.  

Bitcoin already shows itself to be valuable in all kinds of ways, there is no need to jump through your made up hoops in order to concede that value could only come through your way of measuring value.

In other words, the longer that bitcoin is around, the more and more it interacts with other systems and embeds into other systems - and value comes from that too... even if at some point, bitcoin ends up completely going to zero and showing itself as some kind of a vacuous system that never ever ended up having any value (as you continue to proclaim).


You can be right all that you want, and you will have fun staying poor the whole time, too.

   

By the way, you can choose to get into bitcoin now, or you can choose to get into bitcoin later.

For sure, many of us longer term bitcoiners recommend that nocoiners get the fuck off of zero.. so in that regard, if you are a BIG ASS bitcoin skeptic, then maybe you would just invest 1% of your investment portfolio into it.. Sure, that might not be a lot of value, but at least you end up having some stake in the game.

Historically, I had recommended that new entrants into bitcoin start out with somewhere between 1% and 10% of their investment portfolio into bitcoin, and then of course, they can tailorize their investment level once they learn more about bitcoin.  In the past year and a half or more. I have been gravitating towards suggesting that the starting out investment range could safely be in the 1% to 25% level  because bitcoin's investment thesis seems to have had gotten stronger .. especially after some of the events around March 2020 and even some of the various monetary reactions to both the March 2020 liquidity issues and various matters related to the pandemic and also some of the new stuff around wide-spread freezing accounts... whether at the individual/institutional level such as the Canadian trucker situation.. but also around the recent freezing of Russian accounts (government level, associated banks and even targeting of institutions and individuals too).


You seem to be blind.



I am still waiting for when this supposed rug pull is going to come.  I have ONLY been in bitcoin for about 8.5 years, so I will admit that my first few years had some of my value in the negative.. but I largely continued to invest during my first few years to continue to accumulate bitcoin, so surely some profits have already been taken out - and there are people with all kinds of variations in their having had already profited by being involved in bitcoin.

It seems that the longer that you have been in, the more likely that the value invested has decent chances of compounding.. even though for sure there are no guarantees, and surely, as already mentioned, there are all kinds of ways that people can choose to invest their time and value into bitcoin.... or choose to refrain which you proclaim your lil selfie to be doing and to recommend for others.. which hopefully there are not too many people dumb enough to follow your likely to be ongoing loser recommendation in this regard.

I guess part of the point that I was intending to make earlier is that you can come into bitcoin at any time, and still likely be able to profit from getting involved in bitcoin, and sure it is quite likely that some of the monetary gains (on a percentage basis) are likely to NOT have as large of an exponential curve in the future, but the fact that bitcoin remains quite early in its development and adoption phases, there still seems to remain quite a bit of upside potential in terms of steepness of the price performance curve.. so surely, it remains your choice about whether to get in or when to get in or how much to get in, and there surely seems to be some value in getting started getting in sooner rather than waiting or spending a lot of time complaining about how bitcoin supposedly has no value.. that kind of seemingly chosen blindness (to the extent that anyone could actually believe that kind of nonsense rather than just be making it up because they are so scared) is not helping you or anyone else for that matter.

In other words, you seem to be fighting a kind of inevitable uppity of bitcoin, even if there is likely to continue to be ups and downs on the ongoing likely UPpity bitcoin path in terms of various adoption (network effect) and including the reflection of ongoing UPpity movement in BTC prices.. even if it might take a while to play out.



Yep.


Both logic and facts seem to support ongoing existing value and also ongoing increasing value too.


Well if value equals price, then sure...

Part of the reason that bitcoin remains ongoingly volatile, and perhaps one of its most inevitable features happens to be volatility is because there continue to be disagreements about whether BTC's price reflects value.. and so differences of opinion (in the market) result in some of the price battles and even the striving to push the BTC price down or up, depending upon how you might be playing.. if you are a big enough player who believes s/he can move the markets.

Sure, retail momentum can also play into BTC's price direction too.  Of course, there are some folks who buy and sell bitcoin blindly without consulting the price, and there are others who might try to time the short or medium movements in the BTC price.  Quite a bit of behavior goes into establishing the price and maybe causing the BTC price to go in one direction or another.  If you believe that BTC is overvalued at half a trillion or whatever it is, then you either won't buy it or you might sell what you have or you might even bet against it.  

You may or may not be correct, but hopefully, when you are trying to figure out whether to take a stake in bitcoin, you are trying to account for a variety of your own personal factors, and view about the direction of the BTC price as compared with other assets remains only one of the factors.  Other factors include your own cashflow, other investments, timeline, risk tolerance, time, skills and abilities to study, learn, plan, strategize and tweak from time to time which may also include reallocations, trading or the use of leverage or financial instruments.


It's crazy because it does not matter.  People exchange value within bitcoins system and also people exchange value with bitcoin to interact with outside systems.  You are making up shit regarding what ifs that do not even play out within the real dynamics that are determining bitcoin's ongoing value and ongoing increasing value with the ongoing building of network effects including tick tock the next block every 10 minutes.. which is fucking valuable, if you think about the fact that no one can stop bitcoin, even if they were to want to .. which in the end, they do not want to invest as many resources into stopping bitcoin as to just let it continue to produce blocks every 10 minutes.  Bitcoin is here and continuing to build.. so you can jump on the train or stay on the sidelines and continue to poo-poo bitcoin as if it does not exist.  That's your choice.. bitcoin is for friends and for enemies, and none of us can stop you from involving yourself with bitcoin (beyond just talking negative about it) in whatever way that you would like.. or just refrain, if that's what you choose to do.


Perhaps there is a way to just play along with you for a while Snowshow.

For argument sake, we could concede that intrinsically bitcoin has nothing of value contained there in.. it is starting from.. nothing, nada, nichts, la shayy, nichego, Méiyǒu, kuchh nahin, rien, nashi, hiç bir şey, không có gì.

So even if bitcoin starts from nothing, people start to put resources into bitcoin such as mining it (electricity as you had conceded) but also manpower and production of dedicated computers, they put time and energy into developing it, they build various kinds of systems around it as ways to trade it and to speculate on its price and to store it.

I would speculate that the various ways to put value into bitcoin whether time or money or resources, ends up creating value, no?  Some of that value could be fleeting but some of that value could be sticky, too, and if there might end up being utility in using such bitcoin systems (such as keeping track of transactions in a way that is superior to prior methods because there are higher levels of objectivity in the ledger), then the present value may well increase and increase and there may well be speculation regarding future value based in part of present value, current developments and speculations regarding future developments, building and utility.

It seems that some kind of a system that has no intrinsic value would be able to develop present and future value based on various kinds of ongoing inputs into the system and also ways in which such systems that are bitcoin or built on or around bitcoin will become increasingly known, including that some folks may well start to speculate that such bitcoin system has superior ways of holding or building value as compared with other systems that they know, which may well cause some momentum that contributes to the value of a previously intrinsically zero product/project to be growing in value.

And I just hope that I saved you from the bitcoin scam.

I just hope that you don't discuss like that in real live, otherwise its very like that at some point somebody knocks you out

The questions are completely irrelevant. There will still be nothing in the bitcoin system regardless of what I answer. And I am simply saying that nothing exists in the bitcoin system, no value, no resources, no asset, nothing digital, nothing tangible. Simply nothing. And I am right. That's why someone has to bring something from the outside of the system to save the holders from the scam they put themselves in.