Topic: I miss the Soviet Union. (Read 15603 times)

Even then, all of this talk of deaths is a very effective distraction away from the main discussion about the good attributes and major accomplishments of the soviet union.  Not one person ever said the soviet union was even mostly good but I let you derail the entire conversation to be about the bad things.  

Imagine a discussion about anything that has ever happened in the USA devolving into how many people have been wrecked by agent orange.

The criticisms of some of the estimates were mostly focused on three aspects: (i) the estimates were based on sparse and incomplete data when significant errors are inevitable;[34][35][16] (ii) some critics said the figures were skewed to higher possible values;[36][w][34] and (iii) some critics argued that victims of Holodomor and other man-made famines created by Communist governments should not be counted.[37][34][38]

That source was for the "communism cannot commit crimes" clarification.  Ideologies don't kill people, people kill people.

First of all, it should be noted that the phrase ‘crimes
of  communism’  can  be  misleading  and  has  been  
replaced   in   this   research   review   with   the   phrase  
‘crimes of communist regimes’. Ideologies are systems
of ideas, which cannot commit crimes independently.
However,  individuals,  collectives  and  states  that  have  
defined  themselves  as  communist  have  committed  
crimes   in   the   name   of   communist   ideology,   or  
without  naming  communism  as  the  direct  source  of  
motivation  for  their  crimes.  Thus,  the  communist  
ideology  is  not  an  actor  that  can  perpetrate  crimes  
against humanity.

According to Klas-Göran Karlsson, discussion of the number of victims of Communist regimes has been "extremely extensive and ideologically biased".[29] Although any attempt to estimate a total number of victims of Communism depends greatly on definitions,[30] several attempts to compile previously published data have been made:

The American historian Timothy D. Snyder summarizes modern data, made after the opening of the Soviet archives in the 1990s, and concludes that Stalin was directly responsible for 6 million deaths along with three million indirect deaths. He notes that the estimate is far lower than the estimates of 20 million or above which were made before access to the archives. He also compares this number to the estimate of 11–12 million non-combatants killed by the Nazi regime, thereby negating claims that Stalin killed more than Hitler.

The 1932–33 famines killed about 4 million people according to archival data provided by Steven G. Wheatcroft, allowing for some margin of error. Furthermore, I would like to point out the research of Mark B. Tauger, professor of agricultural history and russian/soviet history at West Virginia University, who points out that there were significant natural factors that led to the famine. The exact responsibility for the famine is debated between historians is debated as being either predominantly natural factors, or the exacerbation of natural factors by soviet policy. Either way, it can’t be considered an intentional or genocidal act. Secondly, the gulags. According to the landmark 1993 paper Victims of the Soviet Penal System By Getty, Rittersporn and Zemskov, there were a total of 1.053 million deaths in the soviet prison system (gulags, settlements, etc.) during the Stalin era, with approximately half being during the second world war. It is also worth noting that the vast majority of those imprisoned in the soviet union were at any given time non-political inmates, and even the so-called “political” category of inmates was extremely broad. Vandalism and Arson could be considered political offenses, for example. The highest proportion was 33.9% in 1938 at the height of the great purge, and this number declined significantly as thousands of people falsely accused were released after the purge wounded down. It is also worth noting that the gulags were highly unexceptional for their time, and as conditions in the USSR improved as a result of industrialisation and economic, social and cultural development, the gulag mortality fell significantly. In fact, post-war gulag mortality averaged at 0.725%, compared to the 0.56% in modern russian prisons. Now, thats not to deny the gulags or downplay them, but If we used the same logic to mention american prisons, we would consider the US government responsible for the approximately 100,000 deaths in the penal system over the last 25 years. Just a quick side-note here, there are more people, both proportionally and in absolute numbers in the american penal system today then there were in the soviet penal system at its height Finally executions

The same paper we used earlier can be applied to this section quite well, as it documents the soviet judicial system in its entirety. Getty records a total of 799,455 execution sentences during the entire 1921–53 period (including executions of criminals). Now, the distinction between execution sentences and executions seems small, but its of the utmost importance to note, especially considering vast numbers of people were released on amnesty after the purge, during the war and in many other cases. Furthermore, according to Sarah Davies’s 1997 “Popular opinion in Stalins' Russia”, slightly fewer then 300,000 arrests for anti-soviet activities during the 1937-38 period, when according to Getty, 85% of executions took place. I could also go into the specified execution ratios and many, many other data points implying a significantly lower number, but for the sake of argument lets continue and assume the 800,000 figure is correct

I could go into much, much more detail about various ways these estimates could be reduced significantly, but just for the sake of argument, lets take the absolute highest estimates for every issue and assume the soviets bear full responsibility for every catastrophe, and the absolute highest reasonable estimates are correct, we get approximately the following 800,000 executions

1.053 million penal deaths

4 million famine deaths (this one in particular should NOT be included for the reasons discussed above)

and we get a total of 5.85 million, much less then 20, 60 or 100 million

Using other estimates and assigning proper responsibility, we can assume approximately 250,000 people, if we exclude prison deaths as unavoidable, along with the famine, and use more reasonable estimates for the number of executions. Now, thats not to discard the former estimates, but it is worth pointing out that lower estimates exist

In regards to totalitarianism, I would highly suggest reading “Life and Terror in Stalin’s Russia” by Robert Thurston, a professor at Miami University which sheds more light on the topic

Nothing i'm saying here is controversial, this all comes from highly-respected historians and researchers, but just as a matter of historical record, please be honest with your numbers! Bibliography:

Wheatcroft:

http://www.melgrosh.unimelb.edu/....

Tauger:

http://carlbeckpapers.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/cbp/article/view/89/90

Getty:

http://www.cercec.fr/materiaux/doc_membres/Gabor%20RITTERSPORN/Victims%20of%20the%20Gulag.pdf

Prison Mortality In the USSR (the source is in russian)

http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2007/0313/tema06.php

Prison Mortality in Modern Russia

https://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2013/02/28/russian-prisons-getting-more-lethal/

Prison Mortality in the USA

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/msp0114st.pdf

Any other sources are internally cited

This is absolute horseshit numbers on top of lying about genocide.  Around 3 million at holdomor suddenly turned to "hundreds of millions". Of course there is distraction from people dying in a thread tittled "i miss the soviet union".  Clearly, you should be able to understand that no one misses the deaths.  You are the only one who is obsessed with these awful events to the point where its the entirety of your history knowledge being used. 

When the USA is long gone and someone says "i miss the usa", iits safe to assume they won't be talking about the genocide, slavery, or use of weapons of mass destruction against civilians.

go fuck yourself with your Communist horse shit.

This is absolute horseshit numbers on top of lying about genocide.  Around 3 million at holdomor suddenly turned to "hundreds of millions". Of course there is distraction from people dying in a thread tittled "i miss the soviet union".  Clearly, you should be able to understand that no one misses the deaths.  You are the only one who is obsessed with these awful events to the point where its the entirety of your history knowledge being used. 

When the USA is long gone and someone says "i miss the usa", iits safe to assume they won't be talking about the genocide, slavery, or use of weapons of mass destruction against civilians.

What in the fuck are you rambling about now? Is this yet another extended distraction from the genocide of hundreds of millions Communism is responsible for? Of course it is!

Strange how obtaining some jewish scientists was all it took for a dirt poor country to become the most technologically advanced in the world. Its almost as if some sort of system and organization was in place that allowed them to take advantage of that expertise and mobilze production in order to quickly advance.  

Yes yes, it is always something other than what you just said you meant. Right and wrong are completely subjective, just perpetually keep moving those goal posts until everything is complete nonsense and you know one is going to bother to try to keep up. Then you follow up with more whataboutisms and non sequiturs.

The whole world had similar rises in quality of life and life expectancy, reduction in infant mortality as a direct result of the industrial revolution, which was a direct result of capitalist policies. This is yet another example in an endless stream of examples of Socialists and Communists attempting to constantly claim credit for everything positive capitalism does, and blame it for everything negative Socialism and Communism causes from being implemented. You don't care about reality. You care about selling your wares of collectivized narcissism. Russia went to space as a result of capturing Nazi scientists, as did the US, but this is just YET ANOTHER red herring to distract from your shifting goal posts when I call you on your horse shit.

I'm talking about other famines.  When have you mentioned a famine that you didn't think was connected to Marxism?  I'll apologize if you show me I was wrong in that accusation.  You never referenced other famines such as the Bengal famine caused by the British because that wouldn't allow you to pretend economic ideology creates famine.  Again, my point was that every other empire has done awful things.  ALL empires are evil but not all of the accomplishments that come out of them are.  That is what I mean by asking you to process nuance.  In a nutshell, awful people can do great things and great people can do awful things.

We know people died in the famine but you seem to not understand the definition of genocide.  Genocide requires intent to kill a specific group of people.  There is no evidence of intent in this case so its unknown whether or not genocide took place.  Its a very strong term.  You can't just say a bunch of people dying is genocide.  

There is not gymnastics.  People dying in a famine is awful and clearly not among the list of positive accomplishments I'm referring to.  I made it clear I don't think they were saints.  No every nation did not achieve the same.  No other nation came close because Soviet competitors were already hyperdeveloped by the 20s.  I'm talking about tangible accomplishments too.   For example, No other nation put the first man in space.  This was evidence of their complete superiority in science and technology.   Imagine if Yemen became the leading global superpower by 2060.  That would be impressive regardless of how they got there.  Thats the type of development we are talking about.

No other nation had nearly the amount of technological or medical advances in the same time period and the nations that had similar progress, did so through huge government projects and not through privately owned capitalist ventures.
And thats where we connect back to OP.  The Soviets had so many great innovations that influenced the US and other nations  to improve worker conditions and expand government programs in order to keep up.  The US actually "won" in many ways because Russia putting a man in space inspired everyone to want to collectively invest in technology.  The NASA budget was increased by 500% that year in order to catch up with the Soviets.  It would have taken capitalism several more decades to find investors to finance such massive endeavors privately.  Many of the technological advancements we enjoy today are only here because of subsequent, publicly funded NASA research.

I'm talking about other famines.  When have you mentioned a famine that you didn't think was connected to Marxism?  I'll apologize if you show me I was wrong in that accusation.  You never referenced other famines such as the Bengal famine caused by the British because that wouldn't allow you to pretend economic ideology creates famine.  Again, my point was that every other empire has done awful things.  ALL empires are evil but not all of the accomplishments that come out of them are.  That is what I mean by asking you to process nuance.  In a nutshell, awful people can do great things and great people can do awful things.

We know people died in the famine but you seem to not understand the definition of genocide.  Genocide requires intent to kill a specific group of people.  There is no evidence of intent in this case so its unknown whether or not genocide took place.  Its a very strong term.  You can't just say a bunch of people dying is genocide.  

There is not gymnastics.  People dying in a famine is awful and clearly not among the list of positive accomplishments I'm referring to.  I made it clear I don't think they were saints.  No every nation did not achieve the same.  No other nation came close because Soviet competitors were already hyperdeveloped by the 20s.  I'm talking about tangible accomplishments too.   For example, No other nation put the first man in space.  This was evidence of their complete superiority in science and technology.   Imagine if Yemen became the leading global superpower by 2060.  That would be impressive regardless of how they got there.  Thats the type of development we are talking about.

No other nation had nearly the amount of technological or medical advances in the same time period and the nations that had similar progress, did so through huge government projects and not through privately owned capitalist ventures.
And thats where we connect back to OP.  The Soviets had so many great innovations that influenced the US and other nations  to improve worker conditions and expand government programs in order to keep up.  The US actually "won" in many ways because Russia putting a man in space inspired everyone to want to collectively invest in technology.  The NASA budget was increased by 500% that year in order to catch up with the Soviets.  It would have taken capitalism several more decades to find investors to finance such massive endeavors privately.  Many of the technological advancements we enjoy today are only here because of subsequent, publicly funded NASA research.

I know of that claim but do not know the truth.  Thats why I said may OR may not.  Only you could claim to know the intent of someone who lived nearly a century ago. 

but even if I concede that point, my other point is that I won't just ignore so many achievements in human history because they could somehow be indirectly connected to a brutal regime.  My main argument is one on behalf of nuance and perspective.  The soviets did bad things but nothing out of the ordinary for every empire.  On the contrary, the soviets had many great accomplishments in the same time.  Great work or accomplishments doesn't mean someone is a great person nor does it excuse subsequent evil acts. Why is that so hard to grasp?

I love the idea that the world is connected and advanced even though I hate a lot of the things that also happened while it was becoming that way. 

Stalin may or may not have been genocidal huh? No, really, its not a debate anyone taken seriously is having. Holodomor was mostly the direct result of directed famine, it is telling that you did not know this, then proceed to claim it is telling I do not bring up famine. Also, it was very clearly well documented the famine was caused purposefully.

You know, it is amazing the level of projection you are capable of. I mean at this point either you have to be literally one of the most brainwashed and naive, and or mentally ill individuals I have ever encountered, or you are here doing a job. You are the one glossing over a genocidal maniac saying what he did was great, not me. If a subconscious desire to justify the mass murders exists in anyone here, it is you. I have made it quite clear I don't think it is justified, you however keep defending those actions, ideologies and the people responsible for them.

So which is it? Are you mentally ill and dumb or are you on the job here? Can you give a good list of things to prove you aren't a retard?

Historians continue to debate whether or not the 1932–33 Ukrainian famine—known in Ukraine as the Holodomor—should be called a genocide.[893] Twenty-six countries officially recognize it under the legal definition of genocide. In 2006, the Ukrainian Parliament declared it to be such,[894] and in 2010 a Ukrainian court posthumously convicted Stalin, Lazar Kaganovich, Stanislav Kosior, and other Soviet leaders of genocide.[895][896] Popular among some Ukrainian nationalists is the idea that Stalin consciously organised the famine to suppress national desires among the Ukrainian people. This interpretation has been rejected by more recent historical studies.[897] These have articulated the view that—while Stalin's policies contributed significantly to the high mortality rate—there is no evidence that Stalin or the Soviet government consciously engineered the famine.[898][899] The idea that this was a targeted attack on the Ukrainians is complicated by the widespread suffering that also affected other Soviet peoples in the famine, including the Russians, and the fact that more died in Kazakhstan than Ukraine itself.[900] Within Ukraine, ethnic Poles and Bulgarians died in similar proportions to ethnic Ukrainians.[901] Despite any lack of clear intent on Stalin's part, the historian Norman Naimark noted that although there may not be sufficient "evidence to convict him in an international court of justice as a genocidaire[...] that does not mean that the event itself cannot be judged as genocide".[902]

Michael Ellman argues that mass deaths from famines are not a "uniquely Stalinist evil", and compares the behavior of the Stalinist regime vis-à-vis the Holodomor to that of the British empire (towards Ireland and India) and even the G8 in contemporary times, saying that he is sympathetic to the idea that the latter "are guilty of mass manslaughter or mass deaths from criminal negligence because of their not taking obvious measures to reduce mass deaths." He argues that a possible defense of Stalin and his associates is that "their behaviour was no worse than that of many rulers in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries."

So what you are saying is that the threat of communism was what made capitalism great? I can see that.
What the US has right now looks nothing like a free market economy. No matter what its branded as.

You should learn about all of the major atrocities in history instead of just microfocusing on famine or gulag.  Far more was done than Stalin's policies which may or may not have been genocidal (its literally debated amongst historians).   Its telling that you never talk about anything but communist famines which may or may not have been targeted.  Its believable that you never learned about anything else besides that and the holocaust but its also believable that you have a subconscious excuse that dismisses most mass murder as part of the "good fight". 

Not my words- Via wikipedia
Wow its almost as if there are multiple perspectives to consider and a complex historical analysis is necessary.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/india-35-million-deaths-britain-shashi-tharoor-british-empire-a7627041.html
https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-has-killed-more-than-20-million-people-in-37-victim-nations-since-world-war-ii/5492051
Imagine if these events were mentioned everytime anyone said anything about the US or UK.


I can acknowledge great accomplishments of empires even though I clearly despise them.  I love the fact that so much of the world speaks English and can acknowledge that without condoning the Bengal famine.  I can talk about great things the US has accomplished without brining up all of its atrocities.  I acknowledge that despite not having the best quality of life or ethics, no nation has accomplished more than the US in the latter part of the 20th century.  That doesn't automatically make me culpable for the very things I spend so much time ridiculing.

Everything is so simple to you.  You have only projected that you deal in absolutes and have no ability to perceive nuance.  You claim to know so much history but learning history without multiple perspectives and contexts is pointless.  Can you give a list of good things about the Soviet Union to prove you aren't a complete bot?  Its a captcha. 

They are actual facts not slogans.   Those generalized facts literally apply to the average cuban.   Why don't you go live in the next hurricane Maria or Katrina?  I wonder what life is like living in America as a dead baby.