ICBIT Derivatives Market (USD/BTC futures trading) - LIVE - page 17.

Fireball

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Quote from: davidoski on March 28, 2013, 06:02:35 PM

So why is trading range established in the first place?

Trading range:
1. Allows some sort of control over market manipulation and forcing traders out by moving the futures market (e.g. spot price stays at the same level, but bulls are increasing contango from 10% to 20% to 30% effectively forcing out those who are in a short position)
2. Allows the exchange to perform risk management and guarantee payment to all traders.

As you all could see, we did not hurry to enhance trading range when the underlying asset does not exhibit sharp moves. When it doesn, an additional clearing was done in a timely manner.

If there are any proposals - please let me know. Just keep in mind, that exchange must be neutral and does not favor "long" or "short" traders. It must provide stable trading conditions for both parties for their benefit.

davidoski

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So why is trading range established in the first place?

Fireball

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Quote from: davidoski on March 28, 2013, 05:59:14 PM

What is the reason for additional clearing? Just to "move back trading ranges"? Looks more like pretext than reason.

Please have a look at the spot market chart (Mt.Gox). The reason was a sharp decline in the trading price during 2 (two) hours in a row.

davidoski

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What is the reason for additional clearing? Just to "move back trading ranges"? Looks more like pretext than reason.

Trading range is supposed to be established to avoid harsh moves - if you make additional clearings to "move back trading ranges" you just saying that there's no trading ranges, because you change it everytime there's big move by doing additional clearing.

Fireball

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Quote from: Stephen Gornick on March 28, 2013, 04:57:47 PM

Incidentally:

Quote

It looks like an extra clearing is needed to move back the trading ranges for futures #bitcoin

- https://twitter.com/icbit_se/status/317392723709673472

That was the fastest time between clearings that I've seen. The 20:00 clearing and then the special one at 21:52.

This is part of a risk management strategy. It's very important to avoid defaults. My condolences to those affected by margin calls. Please don't buy to full leverage, keep enough money for sudden moves.

Remember, if it rises 10% a day, it can fall 10% a day too. Especially if you bought 20% above the spot price, consider even just contango reduction may lead to margin calls.

Stephen Gornick

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Incidentally:

Quote

It looks like an extra clearing is needed to move back the trading ranges for futures #bitcoin

- https://twitter.com/icbit_se/status/317392723709673472

That was the fastest time between clearings that I've seen. The 20:00 clearing and then the special one at 21:52.

xeverse

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Quote from: Fireball on March 28, 2013, 10:26:59 AM

it's not just for exchange, it's for trading (which are two different terms).

But the basic concepts of the dark exch should also be applied to trading/hedging.. Good luck..

Fireball

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Quote from: xeverse on March 28, 2013, 03:45:03 AM

When r u goin' to fix that qiwi funding anyway?
It has been broken for at least a week.. Or is it just me?

Yeah bitcoin brings totally new paradigm, a decentralized one.
What's the point in having an old fashioned centralized exchange then?
Ultimately we need a p2p exchange instead of all this hell..

Qiwi... there are many technical difficulties, sorry. We are looking for ways to properly fix that.

As for dark exchange - yeah, but when it comes to ICBIT, it's not just for exchange, it's for trading (which are two different terms).

xeverse

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When r u goin' to fix that qiwi funding anyway?
It has been broken for at least a week.. Or is it just me?

Yeah bitcoin brings totally new paradigm, a decentralized one.
What's the point in having an old fashioned centralized exchange then?
Ultimately we need a p2p exchange instead of all this hell..

>> The Dark Exchange..

Fireball

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A minor update was just deployed. It improves format of the "user_balance" API message.

Changes:
1. Now the "amount" field and "qty" field got merged together into unified "qty" field used to denote quantity of futures and amount of currency.
2. Name represents the long name of the security (currency or futures) now, instead of representing long name for the currency and short name for the futures.
3. Ticker field is added, which contains the symbol name of the security (e.g. BTC for bitcoins, and BUJ3 for the respective futures contract)

Trading bot owners, please update accordingly!

Fireball

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Quote from: davidoski on March 25, 2013, 11:25:27 AM

Why there's no sell orders at present?

That happens when everyone is too optimistic about rate moving upwards

Seriously, it means that traders don't find it economically viable to sell inside the given price range. The solution usually is to make an additional clearing to enhance trading range, which is going to be done soon.

davidoski

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Why there's no sell orders at present?

Fireball

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By popular demand, the real-time chat was added to the web trading. Web caching is too aggressive in caching .css styles, so if the layout appears broken - clear browsers cache.

At least, this way we can also talk live.
However, please note, that I appear only by the username "admin" there. I will add some color distinction, but don't forget that phishing may very well be possible (someone could register admln or something).
Also, the chat is public, so never give up any personal details. Logs are not published, though.

If your username appears as "usrXXXXX" where XXXX is some number, then please click Logout and then login again. This will update your username to the correct one.

Fireball

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Quote from: random_cat on March 19, 2013, 01:33:46 PM

Also since [email protected] appears not to respond to email, I will note here (as Stephen Gornick mentioned in passing in the icbit.se, the bucket shop thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=125376.40) that there is certainly a rounding error issue in variation margin calculation. I have tried to account for it
in a few ways, but none of my techniques match the errors I see. At this point I speculate errors or insufficient precision in floating point operations though it is possible I did not find the icbit algorithm that amplifies a 0.5-1 satoshi error.

Thanks for your email, of course I got it. This issue was queud to be thoroughly examined, but I highly doubt there is an error because I personally thoroughly tested this, calculating everything manually and comparing results.

random_cat

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Also since [email protected] appears not to respond to email, I will note here (as Stephen Gornick mentioned in passing in the icbit.se, the bucket shop thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=125376.40) that there is certainly a rounding error issue in variation margin calculation. I have tried to account for it
in a few ways, but none of my techniques match the errors I see. At this point I speculate errors or insufficient precision in floating point operations though it is possible I did not find the icbit algorithm that amplifies a 0.5-1 satoshi error.

random_cat

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Quote from: Fireball on March 19, 2013, 11:17:20 AM

Trading range enhanced, and some shorts had to be forcefully closed at ~ $53-$54 range (the level above which one person who shorted becomes bankrupt). It'll be shown on the bar chart.

The forcible close may be a problem of your own creation.

The page https://icbit.se/futures clearly states "Clearing happens at 20:00 GMT." By clearing early you may force positions closed while additional deposit of funds to avoid margin call is still being confirmed. Do traders not have a reasonable expectation that the exchange follow the letter of its contracts?

Fireball

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Trading range enhanced, and some shorts had to be forcefully closed at ~ $53-$54 range (the level above which one person who shorted becomes bankrupt). It'll be shown on the bar chart.

killerstorm

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Quote from: Fireball on March 19, 2013, 10:50:26 AM

What's the rejection status stated? It should allow such orders, of course, I tested this scenario numerous of times.

It works now. Perhaps I just forgot about orders I already had...

Fireball

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Quote from: killerstorm on March 19, 2013, 08:22:30 AM

It doesn't. I currently have -0.05 BTC on account, and it was negative for a week or so.

As I have negative initial margin it doesn't allow me to send orders which would close my position.

So to close it I'll have to deposit some money.

What's the rejection status stated? It should allow such orders, of course, I tested this scenario numerous of times.

picobit

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Decor in numeris

Quote from: killerstorm on March 19, 2013, 08:22:30 AM

Quote from: picobit on March 19, 2013, 06:54:20 AM

and was assured that the "margin call" mechanism should prevent my account from going negative by closing the positions.

It doesn't. I currently have -0.05 BTC on account, and it was negative for a week or so.

Ok, negative amounts of fractions of a BTC (or even a few BTC) do not worry me

Quote

As I have negative initial margin it doesn't allow me to send orders which would close my position.

That, on the other hand, is bad. And a bit strange, it could be because you have other open orders "in the same direction", possibly outside the current trading range.

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