As I have negative initial margin it doesn't allow me to send orders which would close my position.
If that is correct, that's new-ish.
Topic: ICBIT Derivatives Market (USD/BTC futures trading) - LIVE - page 18. (Read 97654 times)
If that is correct, that's new-ish.
and was assured that the "margin call" mechanism should prevent my account from going negative by closing the positions.
It doesn't. I currently have -0.05 BTC on account, and it was negative for a week or so.
So to close it I'll have to deposit some money.
All they need to do is add "at 8pm" to the contract wording,
To me it was implied that settlement would occur at the end of the trading day (which ends at 20:00 UTC) at the VWAP at the time of settlement. But I suppose that could be ambiguous so your point is valid. It doesn't mention what duration of VWAP is used (24 hour) nor at what time it is taken (end of trading day) so including both of those would reduce any confusion.
Suppose I have negative amount of money on account on ICBIT.se...
Should I feel morally obligated to settle this debt, or can I just walk away from it?
What are possible consequences?
Can exchange operators go after people who owe to ICBIT.se and label them as scammers on forum, for example?
What's more worrying is that my position is still open while I have negative amount... So I'm getting more and more debt as Bitcoin goes up. But I can also get back into profit if exchange rate plummets =)
Should I feel morally obligated to settle this debt, or can I just walk away from it?
What are possible consequences?
Can exchange operators go after people who owe to ICBIT.se and label them as scammers on forum, for example?
What's more worrying is that my position is still open while I have negative amount... So I'm getting more and more debt as Bitcoin goes up. But I can also get back into profit if exchange rate plummets =)
This was essentially what I asked about a week ago or so. I am worried about getting in the same situation if the market crashes, and was assured that the "margin call" mechanism should prevent my account from going negative by closing the positions. I really hope this is true, because on one hand I do not want to run from my debt, on the other hand I have already placed the amount I am willing to risk on the site.
By the way, I guess that calling it a "margin call" is not really correct, it is more like a forced closure. A margin call would imply contacting the customer and asking for more money to be deposited before the account goes negative.
Suppose I have negative amount of money on account on ICBIT.se...
Should I feel morally obligated to settle this debt, or can I just walk away from it?
You can walk away but that does not mean you're forgiven ;-)Should I feel morally obligated to settle this debt, or can I just walk away from it?
Suppose I have negative amount of money on account on ICBIT.se...
Should I feel morally obligated to settle this debt, or can I just walk away from it?
What are possible consequences?
Can exchange operators go after people who owe to ICBIT.se and label them as scammers on forum, for example?
What's more worrying is that my position is still open while I have negative amount... So I'm getting more and more debt as Bitcoin goes up. But I can also get back into profit if exchange rate plummets =)
Should I feel morally obligated to settle this debt, or can I just walk away from it?
What are possible consequences?
Can exchange operators go after people who owe to ICBIT.se and label them as scammers on forum, for example?
What's more worrying is that my position is still open while I have negative amount... So I'm getting more and more debt as Bitcoin goes up. But I can also get back into profit if exchange rate plummets =)
The contract was settled at 20:01 UTC, just like the contract says.
Link?I didn't have any BUH3 myself so I don't have a log entry. At a minimum it settled before 20:29 UTC when the Tweet was sent. And before 20:39 UTC which is the timestamp when Fireball's forum was posted here.
I did personally see open buys and sells for it right up before 20:00.
Please stop referring to clearing times, there is no relationship at all as there needn't be any.
e.g. LIFFE Libor futures clear in the late afternoon / evening, but settlement fixing determination happens at 11am. Clearing doesn't happen at 11am. There is no link between clearing and settlement price determination.
Hence there is no reason, given the existing contract wording, that settlement price should be determined at 8pm and not midnight, given the prevalence of UTC on the website and the fact it refers to the weighted average price on the settlement day.
All they need to do is add "at 8pm" to the contract wording, and calculate the price themselves with evidence, for me (and anyone of reasonable mind) to be happy.
The contract was settled at 20:01 UTC, just like the contract says.
Link?I didn't have any BUH3 myself so I don't have a log entry. At a minimum it settled before 20:29 UTC when the Tweet was sent. And before 20:39 UTC which is the timestamp when Fireball's forum was posted here.
I did personally see open buys and sells for it right up before 20:00.
So I don't know how externally one could verify the exact millisecond the settlement numbers were reported. The settlement price though is as-of exactly 20:00 UTC. There is evidence that this settlement price was obtained between 20:00 UTC (when trading for it was no longer possible) and 20:29 UTC (the time of the tweet), and other traders have reported this timestamp in their logs:
I did and here's the log entry:
2013-03-15 20:00:01 332 Variation margin, last = 47.0764
2013-03-15 20:00:01 332 Variation margin, last = 47.0764
as well as mutliple traders confirming that at the time of settlement (or minutes after) the 24 hour VWAP price from Mt. Gox was at that 47.0764 level, including:
I can also confirm that I looked at MtGox at the time of settlement, and the price was correct at least to four digits (two decimals after the point).
[Edit: OK, maybe I'm overlooking something basic and am missing your point entirely. Are you instead asking for the link that shows when settlement happens?
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Trading sessions
Clearing happens at 20:00 GMT, clearing duration is flexible.
- https://icbit.se/futures ] Clearing happens at 20:00 GMT, clearing duration is flexible.
The contract was settled at 20:01 UTC, just like the contract says.
Link? Clearly you can't determine the settlement price when there are 4 hours left in the settlement day.
A (24 hour) volume weighted adjusted price is just that -- the VWAP for the trailing (24-hour) period. It can be any 24 hour period of time. The contract doesn't say 00:00 to 23:59 UTC of settlement day, it says the "volume weighted average price", and the settlement occurs at 20:00 UTC. So the 24 hour WAP goes from 20:00 on the day prior settlement day through 19:59 of settlement day. [Update: Since the contract doesn't actually say "24 hour", it could be ambiguous as to which VWAP was intended ... 24 hour, monthly, or what? Previous BTC/USD contracts were using the 24 hour VWAP.]
Now I suppose a script can be run to check the numbers, but settlement happens in real-time. There's no ability to go pull the raw trade data to come up with the WAP in real-time. If that computation is done later and comes up with a different number, then it needs to be analyzed why that is.
I can see the potential for a problem though. If Mt. Gox exchange were to misreport the weighted average, possibly from a staff member trying to manipulate the ICBIT settlement price, then it would be hard to prove what value was showing. I can see the need to have a separate computation performed later against the raw trade data for verification purposes.
I find the use of 8pm surprising as the contract says it's the average for the settlement day.
The contract was settled at 20:01 UTC, just like the contract says.
PM means after 12:00. 08:00 hours + 12:00 hours = 20:00 hours.
The forum post time is 08:39 pm UTC, which is the same as 20:39 pm UTC. He posted the forum post 39 minutes after settlement occurred.
That the contract settled at 8pm UTC was far from clear.
That's because it didn't settle at 8pm UTC.
I care far less about when the effects of the determined settlement price affect the balance of an account, as long as it's a reasonably short delay, if that's what you're referring to.
I find the use of 8pm surprising as the contract says it's the average for the settlement day. Clearly you can't determine the settlement price when there are 4 hours left in the settlement day.
I'm not disputing the price is or isn't correct given the intent was 8pm, I'm saying the contract needs to be formalized properly, and the raw data provided rather than some dude looking at a screen, otherwise there WILL be disputes in the future.
I would hope this would be clear and not controversial. I don't understand why people are attempting to justify the current situation.
I can also confirm that I looked at MtGox at the time of settlement, and the price was correct at least to four digits (two decimals after the point).
I didn't have any BUH3 at settlement so I don't have a print in the log showing the timestamp for when it settled, but at a minimum at 20:29 UTC this was posted on Twitter:
I don't remember the exact 24 hour weighted average number at Mt. Gox after I saw the tweet but when I did look it was some low 47.?? number and I hadn't given it another thought.
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BTCUSD-3.13 (BUH3) was just settled at $47.0764. Total volume for this contract is $754550. Happy trading! #bitcoin
- http://twitter.com/icbit_se/status/312661836484980736I don't remember the exact 24 hour weighted average number at Mt. Gox after I saw the tweet but when I did look it was some low 47.?? number and I hadn't given it another thought.
I did and here's the log entry:
2013-03-15 20:00:01 332 Variation margin, last = 47.0764
I was also watching Mt.Gox's 24-h weighted average, and this number looks absolutely fine to me.
That the contract settled at 8pm UTC was far from clear.
It appears to have settled at the correct time. I think you are seeing 08:31:58 PM UTC which was the time of Fireball's forum post and somehow are thinking that was when the settlement occurred. I didn't have any BUH3 at settlement so I don't have a print in the log showing the timestamp for when it settled, but at a minimum at 20:29 UTC this was posted on Twitter:
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BTCUSD-3.13 (BUH3) was just settled at $47.0764. Total volume for this contract is $754550. Happy trading! #bitcoin
- http://twitter.com/icbit_se/status/312661836484980736I don't remember the exact 24 hour weighted average number at Mt. Gox after I saw the tweet but when I did look it was some low 47.?? number and I hadn't given it another thought.
https://icbit.se/futures - it says about trading session and daily settlement (clearing). Time of daily settlement is 20:00 UTC. Settlement price can be verified by anyone looking at https://mtgox.com website frontpage at the moment of settlement, the weighted 24h avg is taken from there. It should be possible to recalculate that price based on historical data provided by Mt. Gox.
Clearing and contract settlement price determination are entirely different things in general and should not be conflated. That the contract settled at 8pm UTC was far from clear.As you refer to settlement day in the contract, you should have it in the contract that the 24hr average is taken at 8pm. Please do that for new contracts.
I also think you should be veryifying the price yourself from raw data and not relying on what is effectively a Gox screenshot.
Remember you're dealing with (significant quantities of) other peoples money, and charging healthily for the service you provide. An all-round professional approach is vital and expected.
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Tell me please, what would be the purpose of having price limits if one is allowed to place bids above/below those limits?
You serious?
The purpose is to not allow TRADES outside the limits. But since the limits change on a daily basis, and sometimes more than once a day. A trader should be able to put in a order in anticipation of a change in limits.
If there is an order visible in the book, I should be able to join that bid/offer. Either you cancel all orders outside the limits or you allow new orders to join those prices outside the limits.
Of course, you cant allow buy orders above the upper limit or sell orders below the lower limit. But buy orders below the lower limit and sell orders above the upper limit should be allowed!
come on man. exchange 101.
@Fireball: is this a mistake or was this changed recently?
It always used to be 20:00 UTC. Also your BUH settlement happened shortly after 20:00 UTC
No, I'm sorry, I made a mistake when typing the message here. Of course it is 20:00 UTC, as said on the website page too. It always used to be 20:00 UTC. Also your BUH settlement happened shortly after 20:00 UTC
What time zone are you using for the settlement trading day? How can your settlement price be verified?
https://icbit.se/futures - it says about trading session and daily settlement (clearing). Time of daily settlement is 19:00 UTC.
@Fireball: is this a mistake or was this changed recently?
It always used to be 20:00 UTC. Also your BUH settlement happened shortly after 20:00 UTC
Another thing that makes no sense, is the inability to put orders in at prices that already exist in the book. BUM3 has live buy orders from 39-53. Yet the allowable price range for new orders is 52 - 64. So if I try to place a buy at 47, I get rejected! Even though there are already bids at 47. wtf!
Its one thing to have price limits (this can be debated separately). But just because there are price limits, shouldn't stop you from placing bids below those limits. Especially since there are many "Special" settlements that happen which change the limits.
Its one thing to have price limits (this can be debated separately). But just because there are price limits, shouldn't stop you from placing bids below those limits. Especially since there are many "Special" settlements that happen which change the limits.
Tell me please, what would be the purpose of having price limits if one is allowed to place bids above/below those limits?
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