ICONOMI - Live for today. Invest for tomorrow. - page 167.

btcunbranded

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Quote from: Daparski on June 09, 2017, 01:03:53 PM

Quote from: nor9854 on June 09, 2017, 08:19:16 AM

Instead of investing in many ico one should buy icn but they do not give share in ico tokens.
CoinDash will give you share in ico tokens which they would invest in.

woot? Do you even know:
1. What you even said?
2. What Coindash is about?

Deep understanding of traditional markets is definately a plus in crypto, but i saw
a seasoned analyst on CNBC admit that they havent figured it all out yet!.
TRUTH be told, its mainly speculation, Nobody knows but I have learnt alot from reading here
Thankyou all

Daparski

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Quote from: Mendeleev on June 09, 2017, 10:31:50 AM

Quote from: welshminer on June 09, 2017, 09:42:15 AM

As an amusing side note (regardless of which is right or wrong) if Iconomi's original plan was to buy straight from the market, I bet you would have said "Hey guys! Maybe Iconomi should just place support bids instead! What do you guys think?" Wink

And I'd be right to. I don't mind the assertion that I would always think outside the box Wink

It's not like I disagree with every single move Iconomi makes. But there are people who will blindly follow, without considering alternatives, as well you know!

Anyway, on this particular issue, I'm still undecided. I imagine it has occured to Iconomi already, and they probably reached similar conclusions to what you said above.

Enjorlas likes the idea though! Now I feel bad for telling him he's a useless moonkid with nothing of any value to say Sad

What do you think of his comment?

Quote from: Enjorlas on June 08, 2017, 09:47:02 PM

But one thing is for sure, if Iconomi doesn't start market buying with their profits, they will quickly have $millions worth of assets backed up sitting in buy orders on exchanges. For example, there is only around $1,000,000 worth of ICN for sell on Kraken at any given day, but the ICNP is already sitting on a potential $9 million worth of buybacks if they break even on all sold investments. If they don't use some to market buy and move the price, nobody would ever sell.

there is the rule of max 20% of daily volume ( I think it was 20%) for buybacks. So in theory they could get into a "problem" where they have too much profits to burn.
As we saw until now, the team is not afraid to adjust and move accordingly to the landscape instead of remain stagnant.
As we saw in the last months, some liked the new approaches and some liked less. But we can all agree that they are proactive and have a healthy portion of out the box thinking.

Also, I really don't see Jani or anyone from the team sitting and placing buy orders all day. They probably have build a bot for that

Daparski

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Quote from: nor9854 on June 09, 2017, 08:19:16 AM

Instead of investing in many ico one should buy icn but they do not give share in ico tokens.
CoinDash will give you share in ico tokens which they would invest in.

woot? Do you even know:
1. What you even said?
2. What Coindash is about?

welshminer

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Quote from: ajhodge7 on June 09, 2017, 11:11:01 AM

Ok, $1m trade volume is generous, but a good round number...so $100k in buy back everyday on top of the normal amount, so like you said, a 20% increase in demand. A 20% increase in demand would result in a higher magnitude change in the actual price of the token, not just a 20%. This would result in some serious upward momentum based on economic theory assuming a normal elasticity...ICN's supply is inelastic since quantity is fixed (BUT quantity decreases as buybacks occur). There is multiple factors occurring where these buybacks could get out of hand quickly.

Here is a perfectly inelastic supply line. Note Do moving to D1 and how Po goes to P1:
https://econmicro.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/perfectly-inelastic-supply-in-market-period1.jpg

And here is a "normal" supply (fiat currency):
https://www.ezyeducation.co.uk/images/Lexicon_Images/supply_cuve_shifts.png

NOW decrease the supply and your price change is even greater...

SO, looking at the first graph, move S to the left (call is S'). You'll now be let with a new P- price (call it P2),which will be even higher than P1 since the equilibrium will be where D1 and S' theoretically cross. There are 3 factors causing the magnitude of change to be more than 20% (increase in demand, decrease in supply, and the fact supply is inelastic).

I'm not really offering a solution, just noting the problem.

We are talking about different things - I was trying to say that limit orders during buybacks will be filled and there is no need to buy at market price. You say 20% increase in demand will cause disproportionate increase in price. Sure, I agree.

However, markets are slightly more complicated than what your drawings show.

In the short run supply curve heavily depends on subjective beliefs and can wobble frequently.
Overall the supply curve of ICN looks something like this and shifts back with every burn.

ajhodge7

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Quote from: welshminer on June 09, 2017, 10:56:31 AM

Quote from: Mendeleev on June 09, 2017, 10:31:50 AM

What do you think of his comment?

Quote from: Enjorlas on June 08, 2017, 09:47:02 PM

But one thing is for sure, if Iconomi doesn't start market buying with their profits, they will quickly have $millions worth of assets backed up sitting in buy orders on exchanges. For example, there is only around $1,000,000 worth of ICN for sell on Kraken at any given day, but the ICNP is already sitting on a potential $9 million worth of buybacks if they break even on all sold investments. If they don't use some to market buy and move the price, nobody would ever sell.

Seems pretty valid at first, but I still think market orders are only good in short-term and will eventually do more harm than good.

Let's try to analyse this:

For the sake of simplicity assume $1m daily trading volume split half and half between "buys" and "sells"
Also assume Iconomi makes $9m in profits to distribute each quarter (90 days)
So about $100k worth of buybacks every day. That meets about 20% of all "sells".
Shouldn't be a problem really.
Also, Kraken isn't the only place to trade and I think more big exchanges will list ICN eventually.

What could be an issue (although not necessary) - a development of clever algorithm that would be constantly adjusting to ever-changing crypto-market conditions and placing right bids at the right time.

Ok, $1m trade volume is generous, but a good round number...so $100k in buy back everyday on top of the normal amount, so like you said, a 20% increase in demand. A 20% increase in demand would result in a higher magnitude change in the actual price of the token, not just a 20%. This would result in some serious upward momentum based on economic theory assuming a normal elasticity...ICN's supply is inelastic since quantity is fixed (BUT quantity decreases as buybacks occur). There is multiple factors occurring where these buybacks could get out of hand quickly.

Here is a perfectly inelastic supply line. Note Do moving to D1 and how Po goes to P1:
https://econmicro.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/perfectly-inelastic-supply-in-market-period1.jpg

And here is a "normal" supply (fiat currency):
https://www.ezyeducation.co.uk/images/Lexicon_Images/supply_cuve_shifts.png

NOW decrease the supply and your price change is even greater...

SO, looking at the first graph, move S to the left (call is S'). You'll now be let with a new P- price (call it P2),which will be even higher than P1 since the equilibrium will be where D1 and S' theoretically cross. There are 3 factors causing the magnitude of change to be more than 20% (increase in demand, decrease in supply, and the fact supply is inelastic).

I'm not really offering a solution, just noting the problem.

welshminer

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Quote from: Mendeleev on June 09, 2017, 10:31:50 AM

What do you think of his comment?

Quote from: Enjorlas on June 08, 2017, 09:47:02 PM

But one thing is for sure, if Iconomi doesn't start market buying with their profits, they will quickly have $millions worth of assets backed up sitting in buy orders on exchanges. For example, there is only around $1,000,000 worth of ICN for sell on Kraken at any given day, but the ICNP is already sitting on a potential $9 million worth of buybacks if they break even on all sold investments. If they don't use some to market buy and move the price, nobody would ever sell.

Seems pretty valid at first, but I still think market orders are only good in short-term and will eventually do more harm than good.

Let's try to analyse this:

For the sake of simplicity assume $1m daily trading volume split half and half between "buys" and "sells"
Also assume Iconomi makes $9m in profits to distribute each quarter (90 days)
So about $100k worth of buybacks every day. That meets about 20% of all "sells".
Shouldn't be a problem really.
Also, Kraken isn't the only place to trade and I think more big exchanges will list ICN eventually.

What could be an issue (although not necessary) - a development of clever algorithm that would be constantly adjusting to ever-changing crypto-market conditions and placing right bids at the right time.

Mendeleev

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Quote from: welshminer on June 09, 2017, 09:42:15 AM

As an amusing side note (regardless of which is right or wrong) if Iconomi's original plan was to buy straight from the market, I bet you would have said "Hey guys! Maybe Iconomi should just place support bids instead! What do you guys think?" Wink

And I'd be right to. I don't mind the assertion that I would always think outside the box Wink

It's not like I disagree with every single move Iconomi makes. But there are people who will blindly follow, without considering alternatives, as well you know!

Anyway, on this particular issue, I'm still undecided. I imagine it has occured to Iconomi already, and they probably reached similar conclusions to what you said above.

Enjorlas likes the idea though! Now I feel bad for telling him he's a useless moonkid with nothing of any value to say Sad

What do you think of his comment?

Quote from: Enjorlas on June 08, 2017, 09:47:02 PM

But one thing is for sure, if Iconomi doesn't start market buying with their profits, they will quickly have $millions worth of assets backed up sitting in buy orders on exchanges. For example, there is only around $1,000,000 worth of ICN for sell on Kraken at any given day, but the ICNP is already sitting on a potential $9 million worth of buybacks if they break even on all sold investments. If they don't use some to market buy and move the price, nobody would ever sell.

welshminer

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Quote from: Mendeleev on June 08, 2017, 07:19:36 PM

On the liquidity fund... I suppose one advantage would be an extra place to sell, if we're still stuck on Kraken, or whatever, without causing dumps. I just thought it was an interesting addition. I don't necessarily think Iconomi should implement it.

I agree, crypto-community is indeed very irrational.

Extra place to sell is always a good thing, but it must ensure that benefits (such as marketing, reputation, fees, etc.) outweigh the expenditure required to setup and upkeep this system plus any possible price discrepancy.

As an amusing side note (regardless of which is right or wrong) if Iconomi's original plan was to buy straight from the market, I bet you would have said "Hey guys! Maybe Iconomi should just place support bids instead! What do you guys think?" Wink

AdobeWriter

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Quote from: nor9854 on June 08, 2017, 07:05:36 PM

icn is close to $2 have they launched the platform or it is because btc rise?Sorry for not reading previous pages.

ETA on platform launch was given by Jani in the last ICONOMI AMA a few days ago. The platform will be launched in two months tops, which is as good as launched already. The FOMO is real to buy ICN before it skyrockets to god knows what price.

rendravolt

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Only ICN has not touched 100k satoshi.

nor9854

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Instead of investing in many ico one should buy icn but they do not give share in ico tokens.
CoinDash will give you share in ico tokens which they would invest in.

someonesomeone

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I am against market buys because pumping your own price comes across as scammy... Making buy support orders under the last price is a better option in my opinion. If you pump the price then it will dump as well but if you offer buy support then it will just catch some dumps and add to the organic growth of the price.

Quote from: Mendeleev on June 08, 2017, 01:26:02 PM

Quote from: Daparski on June 08, 2017, 12:42:33 PM

Yes. Buybacks means constant buy support in the market.

Wonder what would my uncle say about this

Moi?

Let's put other arguments aside, and focus on a more constructive discussion... The buy back orders are apparently only going to be placed below the last price - which I'm not entirely sure on...

For example, I came across this 'APX ventures', who are using a buyback system too, but their approach is different:

Quote

70% will go towards market buys on exchange

20% will go towards buy support @ 10% below market price.

10% will go towards the APX Liquidity Fund (ALF) which will held as BTC off-exchange, available for anyone to access if they wish to convert their APX for BTC without disrupting the market.

All APX acquired through this process will be verifiably burned.

Source: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByqyVzIU5PtFLXp2UGZPcUFYd1U/view

The liquidity fund idea is interesting, but I'm mainly drawn towards the fact that they will offer market buys, as well as buy support.

I'd be interested in people's thoughts on this approach - is it better or worse? Has this been discussed on the slack at all, or with the team?

BringTheFiat

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32 Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] ICONOMI - Fund Management Platform on: October 24, 2016, 05:44:09 AM

In traditional markets projected P/E can range with ratios of 10-25. Depending on economic conditions and the industry. The economic conditions in crypto have been favorable recently with total market capitalization in
(Jan. 2013 $1.5B)
(Jan 2015 $3.6B)
(Jan. 2016 $7.0B)
(Currently approaching $13.0B)

Example: Projections for Iconomi in its first year net $10M profit that is .10C per ICN if we base share valuation on traditional markets ICN has the potential to reach $1-$2.50 per share. This is crypto and it tends to be much more volatile. ICN has the potential to trade at much higher than standard P/E ratios although as with any crypto it will probably have many peaks and valleys. Prepare for upward trajectory and several pumps and dumps. Ultimately the value will reside in how much money is accumulated in our funds and then how the entire crypto market preforms over the course of the next year

Enjorlas

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I personally like the idea of market buys, and will use my significant share of ICN to vote in that direction if possible. I don't know about 70% market buys though. Perhaps 20-30% is a calmer number.

But one thing is for sure, if Iconomi doesn't start market buying with their profits, they will quickly have $millions worth of assets backed up sitting in buy orders on exchanges. For example, there is only around $1,000,000 worth of ICN for sell on Kraken at any given day, but the ICNP is already sitting on a potential $9 million worth of buybacks if they break even on all sold investments. If they don't use some to market buy and move the price, nobody would ever sell.

Also, a liquidity fund is unnecessary if Iconomi is going to be setting up buy walls on exchanges. If you need liquidity simply dump into one of their walls.

Drunkducker

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Im glad my 10k iconomi are finally doing something yay. If you dont have telegram you should get it. Also ethbits dev/pr are rock its going to be a good dividends token like this one

Mendeleev

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Quote from: welshminer on June 08, 2017, 03:34:50 PM

Such breakdown won't benefit this fund, IMO.

A company should always aim to buy back its stock at the lowest possible price:

1. more shares are burned for the same amount of cash
2. solid support level below market price reduces volatility
3. it also brings stability and provides confidence
4. buying at market artificially inflates price and when buybacks are done a dump will follow. 20% won't hold that.
5. the fund ends up overpaying for its stock - which is a loss basically

The "liquidity fund" is not a new concept. Again, a company is likely to end up paying more than it could have paid - BTC x-rate is still tied to the market so the price should include some premium to attract sellers. We have a "free market"-style transparent exchanges, why should we use tools from another era?

Correct me if I'm wrong, let's discuss it

I can't say if you're wrong or right. Got to factor in that crypto is full of noobs, markets are irrational, etc. too.

I would suggest that it's no more artificial than placing the orders on the buy side, as support. Or just the idea of reducing the supply in general.

You might be right that it would cause dumps afterwards, though.

On the liquidity fund... I suppose one advantage would be an extra place to sell, if we're still stuck on Kraken, or whatever, without causing dumps. I just thought it was an interesting addition. I don't necessarily think Iconomi should implement it.

As an amusing side note (regardless of which is right or wrong) if Iconomi's original plan was to buy straight from the market, and I popped in saying "Hey guys! Maybe Iconomi should just place support bids instead! What do you guys think?" ... I BET YOU most people would disagree with me Tongue

DomainMagnate

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Quote from: nor9854 on June 08, 2017, 07:05:36 PM

icn is close to $2 have they launched the platform or it is because btc rise?Sorry for not reading previous pages.

Platform not available for general public yet but they have made some good investment.The recent one cofound pushed up the prices it seems

nor9854

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icn is close to $2 have they launched the platform or it is because btc rise?Sorry for not reading previous pages.

ruletheworld

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It feels that at this price, and given the history, other major exchanges should list ICN as well. At least Bittrex of not Poloniex.

Wapinter

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Hire me for Bounty Management

https://coinmarketcap.com/assets/iconomi/ xoinmarketcap now shoeing price in eth too.It is a good move by them

Topic: ICONOMI - Live for today. Invest for tomorrow. - page 167. (Read 583532 times)