If MtGox can ident the Bitcoins, why not fix it? - page 4.

Squeaker

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Quote from: nanonano on February 26, 2014, 01:18:23 PM

I notice you didn't answer whether you thought the demands in the example were reasonable. You just changed the angle... In any case, it's not about "inconveniencing" anyone, it's a basic principle of how _all_ money works.

He just seems to wanna turn bitcoin into fiat controlled by a central authority... he may have a lot of posts under his belt, but he just doesn't grasp the concept of what bitcoin is fundamentally... if he really put as much money as he claimed, into something he had no understanding about in the first place, thinking he'd just put his monies into it and get back more monies, then this should be a valuable lesson for him to learn.

=squeak=

nanonano

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Quote from: soy on February 26, 2014, 11:29:08 AM

Quote from: nanonano on February 26, 2014, 05:03:05 AM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 01:08:52 PM

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills. The ATM has recorded those serial numbers. I immediately get mugged. I identify the mugger to the police. The money is seized. The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM. The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

But this isn't what you are demanding. The real example would be:

You take 5*$20 from the atm. Get mugged. Mugger exchanges the 5*$20 for a $100 bill at a store. Police catches the thief and tells you that after he gets convicted, you'll hopefully get $100 from him. You refuse this proposal and demand that the police go to the store get the five twenties that belong to you. If the store has given those twenties as change in the mean time, police must according to you find the customers and confiscate the twenties from them.

This is essentially what you are asking**. Does this still seem reasonable to you?

**) except you didn't really have 100$, you had an IOU for 100$ and still demand to get some specific twenties back (I'm not sure which twenties exactly)

Humm, mugger steals almost half a billion (US billion) dollars in btc. Not to inconvenience anyone we say Good Luck, don't spend it all in one place, and that's that. Half a billion dollars in btc isn't something the owner can fix with a Hey mom, bail me out.

I notice you didn't answer whether you thought the demands in the example were reasonable. You just changed the angle... In any case, it's not about "inconveniencing" anyone, it's a basic principle of how _all_ money works.

mgburks77

sr. member

Activity: 364

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btc is extremely high risk.

part of the game.

soy

legendary

Activity: 1428

Merit: 1013

Quote from: nanonano on February 26, 2014, 05:03:05 AM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 01:08:52 PM

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills. The ATM has recorded those serial numbers. I immediately get mugged. I identify the mugger to the police. The money is seized. The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM. The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

But this isn't what you are demanding. The real example would be:

You take 5*$20 from the atm. Get mugged. Mugger exchanges the 5*$20 for a $100 bill at a store. Police catches the thief and tells you that after he gets convicted, you'll hopefully get $100 from him. You refuse this proposal and demand that the police go to the store get the five twenties that belong to you. If the store has given those twenties as change in the mean time, police must according to you find the customers and confiscate the twenties from them.

This is essentially what you are asking**. Does this still seem reasonable to you?

**) except you didn't really have 100$, you had an IOU for 100$ and still demand to get some specific twenties back (I'm not sure which twenties exactly)

Humm, mugger steals almost half a billion (US billion) dollars in btc. Not to inconvenience anyone we say Good Luck, don't spend it all in one place, and that's that. Half a billion dollars in btc isn't something the owner can fix with a Hey mom, bail me out.

nanonano

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 01:08:52 PM

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills. The ATM has recorded those serial numbers. I immediately get mugged. I identify the mugger to the police. The money is seized. The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM. The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

But this isn't what you are demanding. The real example would be:

You take 5*$20 from the atm. Get mugged. Mugger exchanges the 5*$20 for a $100 bill at a store. Police catches the thief and tells you that after he gets convicted, you'll hopefully get $100 from him. You refuse this proposal and demand that the police go to the store get the five twenties that belong to you. If the store has given those twenties as change in the mean time, police must according to you find the customers and confiscate the twenties from them.

This is essentially what you are asking**. Does this still seem reasonable to you?

**) except you didn't really have 100$, you had an IOU for 100$ and still demand to get some specific twenties back (I'm not sure which twenties exactly)

soy

legendary

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Quote from: frito on February 25, 2014, 05:17:32 PM

Quote from: grifferz on February 25, 2014, 10:27:22 AM

hes got Some ballz...

Playing chess you'd want your opponent sitting on one of those while yourself on something stable. Ergonomic tho those may be, it would effect your balance and sidetrack neurotransmitters. It effected my MtGox btc balance (availability) I think.

Squeaker

sr. member

Activity: 450

Merit: 250

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 05:04:49 PM

Theft of Bitcoins the result of which I have fewer Bitcoins, deprives me of my capacity to spend those Bitcoins. What kind of fungibility is that?

But this smacks of a pissing contest without benefit.

Alright... look... I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt right now, and just honestly try to help you...

So...

Gimme your list of hashes for the pieces of bitcoin that was in your account that MtGox lost, and I'll see what I can find.

=squeak=

frito

full member

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Quote from: grifferz on February 25, 2014, 10:27:22 AM

hes got Some ballz...

Keyser Soze

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Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 05:04:49 PM

Theft of Bitcoins the result of which I have fewer Bitcoins, deprives me of my capacity to spend those Bitcoins. What kind of fungibility is that?

But this smacks of a pissing contest without benefit.

Those bitcoins that you sent to MtGox can be sent anywhere, no matter who currently owns them. Sounds fungible to me.

I know you are probably upset about losing coins to MtGox, but keep in mind that bitcoin is not at fault. You exchanged your real bitcoins for an IOU from MtGox. MtGox now cannot honor that IOU.

frito

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Quote from: MrTeal on February 25, 2014, 01:51:17 PM

Why do you think each Bitcoin has a serial number, anyway? What has the serial number, each BTC? Each satoshi?

If you send 1.5BTC to 1AAAAA... and I later send 2BTC there, when the owner of that key later sends 3BTC to 1BBBBB... and 0.5BTC is change to 1CCCCC, which Bitcoins are yours and which are mine?

there are NO serial numbers, only transactions(records) in the blockchain.

mgburks77

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Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 05:04:49 PM

Theft of Bitcoins the result of which I have fewer Bitcoins, deprives me of my capacity to spend those Bitcoins. What kind of fungibility is that?

Quote

It refers only to the equivalence of each unit of a commodity with other units of the same commodity. Fungibility does not describe or relate to any exchange of one commodity for some other, different commodity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungibility

mgburks77

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 25, 2014, 02:06:32 PM

Quote from: mgburks77 on February 25, 2014, 01:56:43 PM

Quote

Good faith is the important part.

no, trustlessness and fungibility is the important part

I was speaking more on the law. Bitcoin is trustless and fungible and should remain so. That doesn't mean that someone can't be arrested by law enforcement. Generally speaking accepting currency in good faith for goods or services is not a crime even if the currency is the proceeds of a crime. The accepting party acting in good faith is not liable for the return of the funds. However knowingly accepting stolen funds is generally speaking a crime and rarely are criminals allowed to keep the proceeds of a crime.

Agreed.

soy

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Theft of Bitcoins the result of which I have fewer Bitcoins, deprives me of my capacity to spend those Bitcoins. What kind of fungibility is that?

But this smacks of a pissing contest without benefit.

Keyser Soze

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Activity: 470

Merit: 250

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 02:24:44 PM

Flagging the stolen Bitcoins and fractions thereof in a way that clearly lets the potential buyer or store know the Bitcoin is questionable and may at some future date be redlisted would be a start. The thief should not be allowed to profit from the theft.

How would this actually be accomplished? Who maintains this list? How is the list maintained? Why does the network have to comply with the list? What happens in disputes? Where do the funds come from to pay for this?

People are generally against forms of black listing as it destroys fungibility and causes many other issues.

soy

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Or perhaps the whole idea of Bitcoin cryptocurrency was to facility the movement of money for organized crime right down to the neighborhood crack dealer.

Which means that the ideal of Bitcoin being better than fiat because there's less inflation with a fixed number of Bitcoins compared to a government fiat controlled by the banking system was crap to attract money of those fed up with the upward migration of wealth.

soy

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This wasn't the first ripoff and it won't be the last. Last year MtGox got ripped off and they came back by paying out of their own if I recall recall correctly.

There needs to be a mechanism for making ripoffs unprofitable and correctable.

Businesses would prefer accountability SR and SR2 criminals notwithstanding.

If Bitcoin does not address the concerns of the honest and allows crime to go on without an appropriate response, it will bring down law enforcement by major governments with the consent of the populous, Bitcoin owners or not. Then they'll tax it unmercifully. I note someone said that earlier on this thread and better.

Squeaker

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Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 02:27:21 PM

Quote from: Squeaker on February 25, 2014, 02:10:24 PM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 01:05:08 PM

The exploitation of MtGox to the point it fails is in itself an abuse that should not be allowed to succeed.

Why, exactly, are you even involved with bitcoin in the first place if you think like that?

Perhaps you should go back to dealing with fiat, and stay there.

=squeak=

Do you even consider what you say?

Wow... that's so funny coming from you...

Quote

The idea your reply addresses?

What is that even supposed to mean?

Quote

You are on my ignore list now.

So... you give up in utter defeat then and aren't big enough to acknowledge it then?
Just throw a tantrum, pick up your marbles, and go home?
Right... .. . Go back to fiat, where you can be protected from yourself.

=squeak=

Squeaker

sr. member

Activity: 450

Merit: 250

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 02:24:44 PM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 25, 2014, 02:06:32 PM

Quote from: mgburks77 on February 25, 2014, 01:56:43 PM

Quote

Good faith is the important part.

no, trustlessness and fungibility is the important part

I was speaking more on the law. Bitcoin is trustless and fungible and should remain so. That doesn't mean that someone can't be arrested by law enforcement. Generally speaking accepting currency in good faith for goods or services is not a crime even if the currency is the proceeds of a crime. The accepting party acting in good faith is not liable for the return of the funds. However knowingly accepting stolen funds is generally speaking a crime and rarely are criminals allowed to keep the proceeds of a crime.

Flagging the stolen Bitcoins and fractions thereof in a way that clearly lets the potential buyer or store know the Bitcoin is questionable and may at some future date be redlisted would be a start. The thief should not be allowed to profit from the theft.

The bitcoin isn't questionable, however... some bitcoin is just as valid as other bitcoin.

You're willfully ignoring (since it has been pointed out several times to you so far and you don't acknowledge it) that it isn't "your" bitcoin. "Your" bitcoin became MtGox's bitcoin when you deposited it with MtGox... and MtGox's bitcoin became whoever's bitcoin when whoever withdrew from MtGox...

and btw... if you had sent in fiat and bought bitcoin at MtGox, and left it there? Then you NEVER had any bitcoin to begin with. You just had a balance with MtGox that you never cashed out for bitcoin.

What you think of as yours in a physical object sense, just doesn't exist.

=squeak=

cloverme

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SpacePirate.io

Quote from: grifferz on February 25, 2014, 10:22:58 AM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 10:17:35 AM

I can understand that they may be fiat broke but how can they have fewer Bitcoins than their legal transactions indicate?

You send me 10BTC.

I lose those BTC by some means.

You ask for your BTC back.

I say I have halted withdrawals of your BTC because $PROBLEMS

You say, "it's OK, grifferz must have my BTC because trades have indicated it"

I sit on a big blue ball.

You forgot that you have to order a fancy coffee too, THEN sit on the blue ball.

soy

legendary

Activity: 1428

Merit: 1013

Quote from: Squeaker on February 25, 2014, 02:10:24 PM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 01:05:08 PM

The exploitation of MtGox to the point it fails is in itself an abuse that should not be allowed to succeed.

Why, exactly, are you even involved with bitcoin in the first place if you think like that?

Perhaps you should go back to dealing with fiat, and stay there.

=squeak=

Do you even consider what you say? The idea your reply addresses? You are on my ignore list now.

Topic: If MtGox can ident the Bitcoins, why not fix it? - page 4. (Read 11621 times)