If MtGox can ident the Bitcoins, why not fix it? - page 5.

soy

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 25, 2014, 03:06:32 PM

Quote from: mgburks77 on February 25, 2014, 02:56:43 PM

Quote

Good faith is the important part.

no, trustlessness and fungibility is the important part

I was speaking more on the law. Bitcoin is trustless and fungible and should remain so. That doesn't mean that someone can't be arrested by law enforcement. Generally speaking accepting currency in good faith for goods or services is not a crime even if the currency is the proceeds of a crime. The accepting party acting in good faith is not liable for the return of the funds. However knowingly accepting stolen funds is generally speaking a crime and rarely are criminals allowed to keep the proceeds of a crime.

Flagging the stolen Bitcoins and fractions thereof in a way that clearly lets the potential buyer or store know the Bitcoin is questionable and may at some future date be redlisted would be a start. The thief should not be allowed to profit from the theft.

Squeaker

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Quote from: mgburks77 on February 25, 2014, 02:31:02 PM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 02:08:52 PM

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills. The ATM has recorded those serial numbers. I immediately get mugged. I identify the mugger to the police. The money is seized. The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM. The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

What if you got your cash from the grocery store in change instead of a bank? Do you have the serial numbers then?

I mean if you think using a bank is preferable, be my guest...

...and to take that further, say once you got home, you decided to go out to McDonald's... while you're there, a police officer has spotted your car (with its identification number/license plate), has been looking for you as you had received stolen money with the change you got at the grocery store... they meet up with you inside McDonald's, and confiscate the $ from you as stolen property, and if you're a jerk about it (and judging from this thread, I'm pretty sure you would be), you find yourself in cuffs in the back of a police car, maybe with a bruise or two, charged with receiving stolen currency and resisting arrest (since you might end up fighting the arrest, as you don't feel you did anything wrong collecting your change, and you in fact didn't do anything wrong)... so on top of that, then you're still owed monies from the store, for the change that you ended up not being able to keep... but hey, you were in possession of stolen monies, so you're a thief, and who's gonna believe a known thief when he claims to have not received his proper change, anyways?

=squeak=

Squeaker

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Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 02:05:08 PM

The exploitation of MtGox to the point it fails is in itself an abuse that should not be allowed to succeed.

Why, exactly, are you even involved with bitcoin in the first place if you think like that?

Perhaps you should go back to dealing with fiat, and stay there.

=squeak=

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: mgburks77 on February 25, 2014, 02:56:43 PM

Quote

Good faith is the important part.

no, trustlessness and fungibility is the important part

I was speaking more on the law. Bitcoin is trustless and fungible and should remain so. That doesn't mean that someone can't be arrested by law enforcement. Generally speaking accepting currency in good faith for goods or services is not a crime even if the currency is the proceeds of a crime. The accepting party acting in good faith is not liable for the return of the funds. However knowingly accepting stolen funds is generally speaking a crime and rarely are criminals allowed to keep the proceeds of a crime.

mgburks77

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Quote

Good faith is the important part.

no, trustlessness and fungibility is the important part

mgburks77

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Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 12:05:17 PM

Quote from: nanonano on February 25, 2014, 11:59:36 AM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 11:46:33 AM

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question. Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks. Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

You're not a newbie based on the post count... you should know by now that what you suggest is impossible. Even if it was possible, it would not be fair: The "illegal" bitcoins may have been part of hundreds of transactions after leaving Gox. Those transactions may be totally normal trades between people who had no idea that you would later declare their money illegal. Who are you to say those trades are now void?

Who am I? the rightful owner of those Bitcoins.

No, bitcoins are fungible. That means one coin is exactly the same as another.

If you had title for ownership for particular coins it would no longer be fungible currency as each bitcoin would have a different title for ownership. Bitcoins no longer interchangeable unless transaction is just like buying a house with transfer of title. .

leopard2

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 25, 2014, 02:42:44 PM

Quote from: leopard2 on February 25, 2014, 02:25:25 PM

Not sure about US law (maybe D&T can comment?), but German law is crystal clear on that. If someone accepts money in good faith (as part of a legal transaction) then he owns that money. It is not possible to legally acquire stolen goods, but money is an exception (§935 BGB).

That is my understanding. Good faith is the important part. Obviously it doesn't protect someone who knows (or should have a reasonable suspicion) that the money is the proceeds of a crime. Doing otherwise would undermine the confidence in the currency, much like the OP proposal would fatally undermine the confidence in bitcoin. If a merchant, user, or exchange can accept Bitcoins in good faith and then have those coins rendered worthless through no fault of their own .... why would they want to accept a bitcoin? Even if they are interested in crypto-currency they would just support a coin without that risk.

Exactly.

So if one would want to support a centralized thing like Ripple, he would be very interested in events like the Gox crash. A wonderful way of undermining Bitcoin, and much room for conspiracy theories Grin

MrTeal

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Why do you think each Bitcoin has a serial number, anyway? What has the serial number, each BTC? Each satoshi?

If you send 1.5BTC to 1AAAAA... and I later send 2BTC there, when the owner of that key later sends 3BTC to 1BBBBB... and 0.5BTC is change to 1CCCCC, which Bitcoins are yours and which are mine?

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: leopard2 on February 25, 2014, 02:42:09 PM

btw. the solution is not asking for more fascism but good old fiduciary trust; using segregated storage such as proposed by Coinkite. Malled transactions would fail in such a case, due to the fact that people could steal only from themselves.

Agreed. BitSimple takes it a step further in that we never hold any user bitcoins. The transferring a coin to BitSimple IS the sale, and the transferring of a coin to the user IS the purchase. The only coins in our wallet our company coins. Users are free to retain control of their private keys, secure their wallet however they best see fit and still have instant liquidity. There is no need for confirmations so any user can sell their securely held coins at any time by simply making a bitcoin transactions.

Bitcoiners need to start expecting more from their exchanges and not grasping for implausible centralized authority solutions for a decentralized network.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: leopard2 on February 25, 2014, 02:25:25 PM

Not sure about US law (maybe D&T can comment?), but German law is crystal clear on that. If someone accepts money in good faith (as part of a legal transaction) then he owns that money. It is not possible to legally acquire stolen goods, but money is an exception (§935 BGB).

That is my understanding. Good faith is the important part. Obviously it doesn't protect someone who knows (or should have a reasonable suspicion) that the money is the proceeds of a crime. Doing otherwise would undermine the confidence in the currency, much like the OP proposal would fatally undermine the confidence in bitcoin. If a merchant, user, or exchange can accept Bitcoins in good faith and then have those coins rendered worthless through no fault of their own .... why would they want to accept a bitcoin? Even if they are interested in crypto-currency they would just support a coin without that risk.

leopard2

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btw. the solution is not asking for more fascism but good old fiduciary trust; using segregated storage such as proposed by Coinkite. Malled transactions would fail in such a case, due to the fact that people could steal only from themselves

segregated = good, public = bad, this is why taxpayer money gets goxxed all the time,

like the Spanish proverb, paying with someone else's money is easy.

soy

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Quote from: leopard2 on February 25, 2014, 02:25:25 PM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 02:08:52 PM

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills. The ATM has recorded those serial numbers. I immediately get mugged. I identify the mugger to the police. The money is seized. The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM. The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

You are apparently not sober.

If you had any common sense you would recognize that this example is unrealistic. In the real world, the mugger will not be caught immediately, but spend those bills before he gets caught. Roll Eyes

Not sure about US law (maybe D&T can comment?), but German law is crystal clear on that. If someone accepts money in good faith (as part of a legal transaction) then he owns that money. It is not possible to legally acquire stolen goods, but money is an exception (§935 BGB).

Without such a provision, trade would not be possible. Any grocer would have to fear that, at some point, the police seizes some of his money because the mugger said he bought some groceries at that store, using the stolen money.

BTC has to be the same way, or it is not electronic cash. No one, absolutely fucking no one would accept BTC anymore, since he could never be sure whether some of that BTC is tainted and gets seized or redlisted later on.

But I have a feeling you know this already, who is paying you for promoting redlisting? Angry

No one. I put half my IRA into Bitcoin a year ago. I kept one third at MtGox. I have never bought anything illegal with a Bitcoin or fraction thereof. I registered my MtGox acount with fincen. I have nothing to fear from scrutiny. Criminals do.

Tho I can understand not wanting exposure about one's life or finances. A member of the family sat on a federal grand jury that indicted a very powerful political boss many years ago. One learns there is nothing that can be hidden from their minions. All politics are local was said by a former speaker of the house.

mgburks77

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Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 02:08:52 PM

Quote from: mgburks77 on February 25, 2014, 01:49:48 PM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 25, 2014, 11:50:49 AM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 11:46:33 AM

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question. Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks. Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

Because Bitcoin is decentralized. You say "stop" those "bad" Bitcoins. Who stops them and who decided which ones are bad?

The central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes? What is the level of proof? What if someone lied and just said coins were stolen? Is there an appeal process? How does this agency pay for itself (you don't think thousands of people investigating millions of disputes a year is going to be done for freee)? Maybe we should put a 2% tax into the network on each transactions to fund the central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes? What happens when a government puts guns to the heads of people in the agency and says "forcibly confiscate the coins of these political disidents"?

Bitcoin is decentralized. There is no appeal to a central authority.
Bitcoin is like cash. If you leave your wallet on the subway and someone steals it you aren't getting the money back.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash. Start treating it like cash.

Amen

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills. The ATM has recorded those serial numbers. I immediately get mugged. I identify the mugger to the police. The money is seized. The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM. The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

What if you got your cash from the grocery store in change instead of a bank? Do you have the serial numbers then?

I mean if you think using a bank is preferable, be my guest...

leopard2

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Activity: 1372

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Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 02:08:52 PM

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills. The ATM has recorded those serial numbers. I immediately get mugged. I identify the mugger to the police. The money is seized. The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM. The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

You are apparently not sober.

If you had any common sense you would recognize that this example is unrealistic. In the real world, the mugger will not be caught immediately, but spend those bills before he gets caught. Roll Eyes

Not sure about US law (maybe D&T can comment?), but German law is crystal clear on that. If someone accepts money in good faith (as part of a legal transaction) then he owns that money. It is not possible to legally acquire stolen goods, but money is an exception (§935 BGB).

Without such a provision, trade would not be possible. Any grocer would have to fear that, at some point, the police seizes some of his money because the mugger said he bought some groceries at that store, using the stolen money.

BTC has to be the same way, or it is not electronic cash. No one, absolutely fucking no one would accept BTC anymore, since he could never be sure whether some of that BTC is tainted and gets seized or redlisted later on.

But I have a feeling you know this already, who is paying you for promoting redlisting? Angry

freebit13

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I got Satoshi's avatar!

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 02:08:52 PM

Quote from: mgburks77 on February 25, 2014, 01:49:48 PM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 25, 2014, 11:50:49 AM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 11:46:33 AM

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question. Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks. Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

Because Bitcoin is decentralized. You say "stop" those "bad" Bitcoins. Who stops them and who decided which ones are bad?

The central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes? What is the level of proof? What if someone lied and just said coins were stolen? Is there an appeal process? How does this agency pay for itself (you don't think thousands of people investigating millions of disputes a year is going to be done for freee)? Maybe we should put a 2% tax into the network on each transactions to fund the central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes? What happens when a government puts guns to the heads of people in the agency and says "forcibly confiscate the coins of these political disidents"?

Bitcoin is decentralized. There is no appeal to a central authority.
Bitcoin is like cash. If you leave your wallet on the subway and someone steals it you aren't getting the money back.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash. Start treating it like cash.

Amen

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills. The ATM has recorded those serial numbers. I immediately get mugged. I identify the mugger to the police. The money is seized. The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM. The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

What if by the time the mugger is caught, he no longer holds your cash in his wallet?

soy

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Activity: 1428

Merit: 1013

Quote from: mgburks77 on February 25, 2014, 01:49:48 PM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 25, 2014, 11:50:49 AM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 11:46:33 AM

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question. Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks. Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

Because Bitcoin is decentralized. You say "stop" those "bad" Bitcoins. Who stops them and who decided which ones are bad?

The central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes? What is the level of proof? What if someone lied and just said coins were stolen? Is there an appeal process? How does this agency pay for itself (you don't think thousands of people investigating millions of disputes a year is going to be done for freee)? Maybe we should put a 2% tax into the network on each transactions to fund the central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes? What happens when a government puts guns to the heads of people in the agency and says "forcibly confiscate the coins of these political disidents"?

Bitcoin is decentralized. There is no appeal to a central authority.
Bitcoin is like cash. If you leave your wallet on the subway and someone steals it you aren't getting the money back.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash. Start treating it like cash.

Amen

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills. The ATM has recorded those serial numbers. I immediately get mugged. I identify the mugger to the police. The money is seized. The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM. The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

soy

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Activity: 1428

Merit: 1013

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 25, 2014, 01:49:06 PM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 01:46:35 PM

Quote from: Squeaker on February 25, 2014, 01:38:36 PM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 01:32:44 PM

I can see how those deluded with the anonymity of Bitcoin could be worried that their trades on Silk Road or Silk Road 2 could be traced back to them but they'd have to be idiots not to realize that the blockchain is a record of every trade.

Please define how you are attempting to use the term "trade" in this context?

Quote

Organized crime ran into the problem of computers tracking money in US banks a long time ago. They moved to hanging valuable artwork on their walls and the like. What to do with the money was/is a real problem for organized crime.

You'll argue that I should explain exactly how the stolen/missing Bitcoins can be tracked or identified. I can't. But I've never argued I could. Perhaps somebody on the board of the Bitcoin Foundation can.

We are arguing no such thing...

We are arguing that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and we are trying to drop some knowledge on you that you are ignoring.

=squeak=

After the US government seized Bitcoins, the Bitcoin Foundation considered making those specific Bitcoins worthless. They questioned why allow the seizing government to profit and to gain the leverage of perhaps dumping those Bitcoins to effect Bitcoin value at some critical juncture. They would likely have brainstormed how to do that back then. If MtGox can identify how and when it got ripped off of which Bitcoins perhaps the Bitcoin Foundation can make those worthless for the time being or until it's sorted out.

The Bitcoin Foundation doesn't control my node (or anyone's node). Bitcoin is a consensus system. So you want it so whatever coins the Foundation says are worthless, become worthless. You can't possibly see the problem with having an entity with an off switch to the entire Bitcoin network, an absolute central power in a "decentralized network"?

Can't think of any way that could be possibly be abused? Nobody will agree to a Bitcoin where a single entity can at will freeze coins. Bitcoins works on consensus if people don't agree to that fork, it will never be used.

The exploitation of MtGox to the point it fails is in itself an abuse that should not be allowed to succeed.

mgburks77

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Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 25, 2014, 11:50:49 AM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 11:46:33 AM

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question. Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks. Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

Because Bitcoin is decentralized. You say "stop" those "bad" Bitcoins. Who stops them and who decided which ones are bad?

The central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes? What is the level of proof? What if someone lied and just said coins were stolen? Is there an appeal process? How does this agency pay for itself (you don't think thousands of people investigating millions of disputes a year is going to be done for freee)? Maybe we should put a 2% tax into the network on each transactions to fund the central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes? What happens when a government puts guns to the heads of people in the agency and says "forcibly confiscate the coins of these political disidents"?

Bitcoin is decentralized. There is no appeal to a central authority.
Bitcoin is like cash. If you leave your wallet on the subway and someone steals it you aren't getting the money back.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash. Start treating it like cash.

Amen

DeathAndTaxes

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Activity: 1218

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 01:46:35 PM

Quote from: Squeaker on February 25, 2014, 01:38:36 PM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 01:32:44 PM

I can see how those deluded with the anonymity of Bitcoin could be worried that their trades on Silk Road or Silk Road 2 could be traced back to them but they'd have to be idiots not to realize that the blockchain is a record of every trade.

Please define how you are attempting to use the term "trade" in this context?

Quote

Organized crime ran into the problem of computers tracking money in US banks a long time ago. They moved to hanging valuable artwork on their walls and the like. What to do with the money was/is a real problem for organized crime.

You'll argue that I should explain exactly how the stolen/missing Bitcoins can be tracked or identified. I can't. But I've never argued I could. Perhaps somebody on the board of the Bitcoin Foundation can.

We are arguing no such thing...

We are arguing that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and we are trying to drop some knowledge on you that you are ignoring.

=squeak=

After the US government seized Bitcoins, the Bitcoin Foundation considered making those specific Bitcoins worthless. They questioned why allow the seizing government to profit and to gain the leverage of perhaps dumping those Bitcoins to effect Bitcoin value at some critical juncture. They would likely have brainstormed how to do that back then. If MtGox can identify how and when it got ripped off of which Bitcoins perhaps the Bitcoin Foundation can make those worthless for the time being or until it's sorted out.

The Bitcoin Foundation doesn't control my node (or anyone's node). Bitcoin is a consensus system. So you want it so whatever coins the Foundation says are worthless, become worthless. You can't possibly see the problem with having an entity with an off switch to the entire Bitcoin network, an absolute central power in a "decentralized network"?

Can't think of any way that could be possibly be abused? Nobody will agree to a Bitcoin where a single entity can at will freeze coins. Bitcoins works on consensus if people don't agree to that fork, it will never be used.

soy

legendary

Activity: 1428

Merit: 1013

Quote from: Squeaker on February 25, 2014, 01:38:36 PM

Quote from: soy on February 25, 2014, 01:32:44 PM

I can see how those deluded with the anonymity of Bitcoin could be worried that their trades on Silk Road or Silk Road 2 could be traced back to them but they'd have to be idiots not to realize that the blockchain is a record of every trade.

Please define how you are attempting to use the term "trade" in this context?

Quote

Organized crime ran into the problem of computers tracking money in US banks a long time ago. They moved to hanging valuable artwork on their walls and the like. What to do with the money was/is a real problem for organized crime.

You'll argue that I should explain exactly how the stolen/missing Bitcoins can be tracked or identified. I can't. But I've never argued I could. Perhaps somebody on the board of the Bitcoin Foundation can.

We are arguing no such thing...

We are arguing that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and we are trying to drop some knowledge on you that you are ignoring.

=squeak=

After the US government seized Bitcoins, the Bitcoin Foundation considered making those specific Bitcoins worthless. They questioned why allow the seizing government to profit and to gain the leverage of perhaps dumping those Bitcoins to effect Bitcoin value at some critical juncture. They would likely have brainstormed how to do that back then. If MtGox can identify how and when it got ripped off of which Bitcoins perhaps the Bitcoin Foundation can make those worthless for the time being or until it's sorted out.

Topic: If MtGox can ident the Bitcoins, why not fix it? - page 5. (Read 11612 times)