Topic: If MtGox can ident the Bitcoins, why not fix it? - page 6. (Read 11612 times)

So, those who saw that they were paid twice or more for a withdrawal exploited that.  Boy if someone had gotten one of those double transactions for a single withdrawal request he'd argue loudly it can't be fixed, give up trying to fix it.

Please define how you are attempting to use the term "trade" in this context?We are arguing no such thing...

We are arguing that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and we are trying to drop some knowledge on you that you are ignoring.

=squeak=

I can see how those deluded with the anonymity of Bitcoin could be worried that their trades on Silk Road or Silk Road 2 could be traced back to them but they'd have to be idiots not to realize that the blockchain is a record of every trade.

Organized crime ran into the problem of computers tracking money in US banks a long time ago.  They moved to hanging valuable artwork on their walls and the like.  What to do with the money was/is a real problem for organized crime.

You'll argue that I should explain exactly how the stolen/missing Bitcoins can be tracked or identified.  I can't.  But I've never argued I could.  Perhaps somebody on the board of the Bitcoin Foundation can.

Every piece of bitcoin _that_is_transacted_on_the_blockchain_ has a history... all of the coin within MtGox, do  not have a history on the blockchain.

The blockchain shows coin going into MtGox, and coin coming out to MtGox... not which accounts within MtGox, holds what.

As far as the blockchain is concerned, all that coin, belongs to addresses held by MtGox.

When you deposit coin to MtGox, once your MtGox account is credited, the coin that arrived at your deposit address is moved to MtGox's wallet. (the deposit address is only used so MtGox knows who gets credited for what). Once in MtGox's operating wallet, that coin may be used for a withdrawal, or may be moved to cold storage if the operating wallet contains too much. When those moves happen, that coin is not recognizeable as yours anymore, and even the amounts of the pieces have changed.

What you think of as "yours", is no longer "yours"... and no longer exists.

=squeak=

edit: also, you are getting your terminology wrong... a double-spend, is different than MtGox having sent coin, twice... a double-spend involves two transactions trying to reference the same piece of coin as inputs to the transaction. MtGox's problem, had more to do with losing track of what it was sending, and sending more, without knowing what it sent earlier, did go through, so MtGox sent more than one valid transaction, where a double-spend, only one transaction would have succeeded.

If the people running MtGox had paid closer attention to their balance sheets, this could have been possible and have caught it within weeks of it happening... but they didn't... and so now we're looking at months and months (perhaps even years) of over-withdrawals that have happened. How would you even be able to determine which were intended and which weren't at this point? You might be able to figure out a small fraction with a 2:3 level of accuracy, but it has gone on too long, and grown too big, for this kind of damage to be absorbed... all because they were apathetic to their balance sheets.

=squeak=

Every Bitcoin has a history.  If MtGox did not assign specific Bitcoins to my MtGox Bitcoin holdings, it at least has a history of what Bitcoins were double spent or stolen.  Identifying those that were stolen and freezing those so no more transactions can be conducted with those is what's necessary.  And yes, if a 3rd party bought those stolen coins the third party would lose not the rightful owner, MtGox and by extension myself.

You keep (intentionally) ignoring this question.  Who would do this?  On what authority?  How would they do it?

In related news the top 500 bitcoin addresses are mine and were just stolen please freeze them.

non-sequitur

But why not stop those bitcoins from being traded ASAP.  If somewhere down the road a decision is made that the stolen/missing Bitcoins belong to the rightful owners and those transactions with stolen/missing Bitcoins are not valid then freezing them now would limit the damage and to argue otherwise aside from arguing as the devil's advocate is suspect.  A pain in the ass for the blockchain yes but better sooner than later.

How would you identify those specific bitcoin as _yours_?

There aren't specific, numbered, bitcoins. Bitcoin is just a ledger system.

Bitcoin that I deposit at an exchange, would most likely, be used on someone else's subsequent withdrawal from that exchange within the hour. The exchange keeps track of what I deposited, internally.

Same way that when you put USD 200 in cash into an ATM to deposit into your savings account, that money isn't collected later in the day, and put into a box in the vault, labelled "soy's monies", waiting for you to withdraw it later from your box.

You depend on the bank, and the exchange, to faithfully keep track of how much belongs to who, and if they are wrong, through no fault of the customer, it is on the bank/exchange, to reimburse you. It would be completely wrong to claw back monies from a 3rd party who had done nothing wrong, depriving them of _their_ monies, so you could have yours.

=squeak=

(edit: changed "nanonano's monies" to "soy's monies" as I lost track of who we were really replying to... sorry, nanonano o/ )

To my knowledge the US government never seized any bitcoins from MtGox.  Still even the US government doesn't have a magical freeze bitcoins override switch.  In the case of the silk road they seized the bitcoins because .... they seized the private keys.

As DPR is learning right now:

If you don't have the private key for "your" bitcoins then you have no bitcoins.

Then back to the missing bitcoins.  When the US government seized some MtGox bitcoins because laws were broken was there a verifiable blockchain trail identifying specific bitcoins with specific lawbreakers?

Haha his twitter is not having any activity https://twitter.com/MagicalTux





That is important to understand that, it is why we need not to have all our wealth in one place and at the mercy of bad management

D&T is right: MtGox was the owner of those bitcoins. The only thing you had was a solemn promise from MtGox that they would give you a same number of bitcoins when you wanted them.

D&T is correct. We want BTC to be like that, like cash. Actually fiat is similar, if you give your cash to a bank you get IOU's in return. Typically a bank only got 1-3% of the cash, the difference is lent out on the basis of fractional banking.

Even Gox should have more than 1-3% left.

What banks do, is that they insure each other, and of course the central banks/govt. bails them out. This is possible only because fiat can be created from thin air.

In the case of BTC, having segregated accounts is the solution, then no one is going to be goxxed anymore.

Sadly you are not.   If you don't have the private key for "your" bitcoins then you have no bitcoins.  What you do have is an IOU from MtGox to repay you x BTC at such time when you choose to withdraw them.  You own debt from MtGox.  MtGox has failed to honor that debt.  That is the problem with debt.  It is often not repaid.  The advantage of Bitcoin is that it has no counterparty risk however if you hand over your Bitcoins in exchange for IOUs then you are giving up that advantage.

If you don't have the private key for "your" bitcoins then you have no bitcoins.

As for saying you are the rightful owner.  Says who?  Based on what evidence?   Who judges that evidence?  How do they have the master control key for the Bitcoin network?

Who am I?  the rightful owner of those Bitcoins.

You're not a newbie based on the post count... you should know by now that what you suggest is impossible. Even if it was possible, it would not be fair: The "illegal" bitcoins may have been part of hundreds of transactions after leaving Gox. Those transactions may be totally normal trades between people who had no idea that you would later declare their money illegal. Who are you to say those trades are now void?

Instead of hari-kari, how about I just stick the knife in the big blue ball.

Who has the motivation to do that work though?

No one at MtGox. So, the government? Isn't it more in their interest to just tell you that bitcoin is not regulated, until they are ready to use the outrage to insist upon regulation?

Because Bitcoin is decentralized.  You say "stop" those "bad" Bitcoins.  Who stops them and who decided which ones are bad?

The central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes?  What is the level of proof?  What if someone lied and just said coins were stolen?  Is there an appeal process?  How does this agency pay for itself (you don't think thousands of people investigating millions of disputes a year is going to be done for freee)?  Maybe we should put a 2% tax into the network on each transactions to fund the central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes?  What happens when a government puts guns to the heads of people in the agency and says "forcibly confiscate the coins of these political disidents"?

Bitcoin is decentralized.  There is no appeal to a central authority.
Bitcoin is like cash.  If you leave your wallet on the subway and someone steals it you aren't getting the money back.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.  Start treating it like cash.