If the dollar/fiat was worthless! - page 2.

DrBeer

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Quote from: Mpamaegbu on April 10, 2023, 10:17:07 AM

Quote from: GeorgeJohn on April 10, 2023, 02:23:18 AM

Dollars rate crash to zero it will definitely affect bitcoin...

First off, there's no way dollar can dip to zero. That's one. Secondly, let's hypothetically say it does crash to zero; it will rather have a positive impact on Bitcoin rather than the reverse. Bitcoin will soar higher. Haven't we seen enough of this work out for years now? Inflation has eaten deeply into the dollar, consequently dollar continues to exchange lower to a Bitcoin. My projection is that price disparity will even get worse in time to come. Bitcoin price continues on an upward movement while dollar and other fiat continue to slip.

Soon, the way Gold is thought to be a safe haven; it will be same with Bitcoin where people will convert their fiat to Bitcoin to protect the value of their fiat against inflation.

You admit one erroneous opinion, and from this you draw erroneous conclusions. The mistake is that you consider gold and bitcoin to be similar assets. But the problem is that it is not. Gold has a real value formed by demand, "traditions", the complexity of mining (utility), and some other indicators. Bitcoin has a speculative price and wild volatility, but nothing like the properties of gold. In addition, in times of crisis, gold is very liquid, and for it you can just buy bread, but what about bitcoin? No way .. You can’t buy bread for it, and even matches ....

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The threat that fiat, including the dollar crash, can certainly occur at any time, especially now that more and more people or countries are leaving the dollar and switching to other currencies, and in my opinion, the power of fiat will decrease because it has proven unable to solve economic problems, especially inflation.

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Quote from: GeorgeJohn on April 10, 2023, 02:23:18 AM

Dollars rate crash to zero it will definitely affect bitcoin...

First off, there's no way dollar can dip to zero. That's one. Secondly, let's hypothetically say it does crash to zero; it will rather have a positive impact on Bitcoin rather than the reverse. Bitcoin will soar higher. Haven't we seen enough of this work out for years now? Inflation has eaten deeply into the dollar, consequently dollar continues to exchange lower to a Bitcoin. My projection is that price disparity will even get worse in time to come. Bitcoin price continues on an upward movement while dollar and other fiat continue to slip.

Soon, the way Gold is thought to be a safe haven; it will be same with Bitcoin where people will convert their fiat to Bitcoin to protect the value of their fiat against inflation.

GeorgeJohn

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Dollars rate crash to zero it will definitely affect bitcoin, I know quite well that bitcoin calculate in dollars, but as a digital currency bitcoin take can maintain a little value or the values remain constant as I may likely see, because I can recall when dollars falls bitcoin maintained it values, the place I think that it will affect someone using bitcoin mostly is when you comes to exchange of bitcoin to dollars, the value will be reduced dramatically.

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Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

That's an interesting thought experiment. For the value of the dollar to go to 0 there would be some very bad situation before, likely could be that the US government prints so much Dollar that they become worthless, or the inflation starts to go into hyper inflation also making the value of 1 USD to drop to 0. Alternatively the US economy could collapse and also making the currency to collapse. The question then would be if consumers start to switch to other means of payments, like bitcoin or gold. Trading in gold is not really feasible as most people only own it in form of jewelry which you can't really break down in small parts. Bitcoin would be a great way to make purchases directly between producers and consumers, but I can't imagine want kind of prices it would be. Given that if USA is in economic crisis the rest of world will likely be too, there would be high demand for bitcoins and prices should rise quickly. Probably already for a few Satoshi we could be buying our daily food supplies.

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Slowly the value of fiat will continue to decline, unstoppable inflation is an indication that fiat is increasingly difficult to compete, moreover the state printing fiat does not consider supply so that the value will continue to decrease, a different matter if the state considers gold and silver to print fiat.

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Quote from: pooya87 on April 08, 2023, 11:44:19 AM

Quote from: kickea on April 07, 2023, 05:00:36 PM

Great answer! What kind of system could we create for a smooth transition were everything would be valued by something other then fiat which would not be affected by inflation?

You are again forgetting the difference between value and price. Things are not valued in fiat, they are priced in fiat. Value of all currencies (dollar, euro, yuan, bitcoin, yen, ...) is in their purchasing power.

Lets say bitcoin price is $28000 and you want to buy an iPhone that is $800 so you pay 0.02854BTC. If dollar tanks and loses half of its value today, you can still buy the same iPhone with 0.02854BTC tomorrow even though at that time bitcoin should technically be worth $56,000.
This is the difference between value and price in simple terms. Bitcoin value and the iPhone value remained the same so you paid the same amount of bitcoin for its purchase despite the price of both bitcoin and iPhone going up against dollar.

To answer your question, we don't need any system for transition. Bitcoin is a stand alone currency that does not rely on fiat currency of one country. The market may be affected because it is still a small market and market participants are known for their emotional reactions but that's about it.

I have been carefully following up with the explanation of both value and price rate and I think it's quite clear now with this your further explanation, so let me get this straight, bitcoin value remains the same with other fiat interms if purchasing power but it can change in price against the dollar since its still for now the world currency but the value and price could still be the same with euros and pounds but the only difference is that this three currencies mentioned who only gain in prices against the US dollars. It's seem clear enough but if am still not getting it please clear me further on this.

pooya87

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Quote from: kickea on April 08, 2023, 05:25:46 PM

So what you are basically saying is that if the dollar loses half of its value today, you can buy the Iphone for 0.02854BTC, then you could sell it again for 1600$. And buy 0.05708BTC for that money you earned from the Iphone sale.

Read my comment again! As I said, in that scenario bitcoin price in dollar would also go up and it would be be worth $56,000 meaning if you sell that iPhone for dollar and get $1600 you can still buy the same amount of bitcoin 0.02854BTC not more.

Quote

But if I understand you correctly you are saying that as long as goods and services are priced in bitcoin, there wont be a problem with buying and selling in bitcoin, which is really a given - but how do we get to this point? And more interesting if that iphone is priced in bitcoin and it is also priced in dollar, euro, yuan etc. how will this affect eachother?

I'mt not saying that either. I'm saying that everything has a "value" and because of that value they gain an exchange rate when exchanges for something else. That something can be dollar, bitcoin, gold or groceries! As long as that value remains the same, the exchange rates remain the same too. But if value of one of these (like value of dollar) changes the exchange rate of everything (iPhone, bitcoin, gold, etc.) against dollar would change.

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Quote from: Sarah Azhari on April 08, 2023, 10:10:49 PM

Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless?

If the dollar is worthless, we can compare Bitcoin with gold, oil, gas, rice, burger, cigarette, sake, iPhones, Netflix, and other goods. So, I don't worry about it.

I don't know why people out there always compare Bitcoin with the dollar?, I don't know why it's necessary because our local exchange didn't use dollars but Rupiah. So if the dollar is worthless, I will compare it rupiah to buy goods, or if all fiat is useless, I will go to Elsavador to buy a burger. Simple.

don't worry, we wouldn't die without dollars.

the dollar is only a unit for comparison in the world so that it is easier to benchmark as if it were chosen as a universal currency throughout the world, but indeed the dollar is not doing well, but isn't there still a lot of currency in the world that might be more appropriate as a comparison which is already worldwide, and of course why worry about all this, because there are many ways as an exchange rate

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Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless?

If the dollar is worthless, we can compare Bitcoin with gold, oil, gas, rice, burger, cigarette, sake, iPhones, Netflix, and other goods. So, I don't worry about it.

I don't know why people out there always compare Bitcoin with the dollar?, I don't know why it's necessary because our local exchange didn't use dollars but Rupiah. So if the dollar is worthless, I will compare it rupiah to buy goods, or if all fiat is useless, I will go to Elsavador to buy a burger. Simple.

don't worry, we wouldn't die without dollars.

serjent05

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Quote from: kickea on April 07, 2023, 05:14:25 PM

Perfect! So everyone that could not provide any services or sell any goods would not have the posibilites to buy bitcoin at that time. This would make the transition to the time where fiat is no more very complicated... while there are probably 1000 other things to be worried about at that time.

But lets say we would want the world's economy to be completely decentralized with no fiat, and no inflation politics. How could we create a smooth transition where there won't a complete havock?

In theory, there are certain ways but in reality, it won't happen. There is a government that has authority over things here on earth. Besides, there are different authority that has different views and beliefs that often contradicts themselves. This is another reason why there are different global organization because not every one are in agreement with each other. With this situation in hand, it is impossible to create a transition from centralization to decentralization let alone the government accepting decentralized currency to dictate its financial activities.

kickea

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Quote from: nimogsm on April 08, 2023, 04:13:09 PM

Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?

You missed a very important point,Bitcoin is also convertible into other currencies,so even the theoretical fall of the dollar to 0 will not greatly affect the price. Yes, of course, at first there will be a panic in the market and Bitcoin will lose a lot in price, but it will definitely not cost 0 .This is its main advantage, it is freely convertible both in currency and in goods as well and can be exchanged for a service.

Dollar/fiat

kickea

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Quote from: pooya87 on April 08, 2023, 11:44:19 AM

Quote from: kickea on April 07, 2023, 05:00:36 PM

Great answer! What kind of system could we create for a smooth transition were everything would be valued by something other then fiat which would not be affected by inflation?

You are again forgetting the difference between value and price. Things are not valued in fiat, they are priced in fiat. Value of all currencies (dollar, euro, yuan, bitcoin, yen, ...) is in their purchasing power.

Lets say bitcoin price is $28000 and you want to buy an iPhone that is $800 so you pay 0.02854BTC. If dollar tanks and loses half of its value today, you can still buy the same iPhone with 0.02854BTC tomorrow even though at that time bitcoin should technically be worth $56,000.
This is the difference between value and price in simple terms. Bitcoin value and the iPhone value remained the same so you paid the same amount of bitcoin for its purchase despite the price of both bitcoin and iPhone going up against dollar.

To answer your question, we don't need any system for transition. Bitcoin is a stand alone currency that does not rely on fiat currency of one country. The market may be affected because it is still a small market and market participants are known for their emotional reactions but that's about it.

So what you are basically saying is that if the dollar loses half of its value today, you can buy the Iphone for 0.02854BTC, then you could sell it again for 1600$. And buy 0.05708BTC for that money you earned from the Iphone sale. And keep on doing this until the price of bitcoin catches up. But if I understand you correctly you are saying that as long as goods and services are priced in bitcoin, there wont be a problem with buying and selling in bitcoin, which is really a given - but how do we get to this point? And more interesting if that iphone is priced in bitcoin and it is also priced in dollar, euro, yuan etc. how will this affect eachother?

Like now the norwegian krone is worth much less compared to euro and dollar, which means that it is cheaper for europe and america to buy salmon from norway today then it was a few months ago.

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Its almost a certainty that Dollar goes to zero, purely on precedent. Every FIAT currency has failed, the only question is after how long does it fail. I think Sterling might be an exception possibly a couple others even then if you consider sterling lost 99% of its value its not too far off the Ruble which swapped 1 new Ruble for 10,000 old Ruble or in layman's terms it was wiped out. In effect these paper promises always will fail but can last decades, obviously the bank is larger then any person or entity that opposes it but the tide and natural dynamics that make up the basic studies of economies force all currency to zero value. The reason is the promise relies on people and in politics especially that means its a lie.

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Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?

You missed a very important point,Bitcoin is also convertible into other currencies,so even the theoretical fall of the dollar to 0 will not greatly affect the price. Yes, of course, at first there will be a panic in the market and Bitcoin will lose a lot in price, but it will definitely not cost 0 .This is its main advantage, it is freely convertible both in currency and in goods as well and can be exchanged for a service.

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First of all I don't think it could be ever happened that dollar goes to zero . I don't think there is any currency in the world that is worth zero. Although the value of the currency depends on the reserve assets of that country Since dollar America is one of the strongest countries in the world currency their currency will not depreciate so easily. Then comes the issue of bitcoin price drop, bitcoin price does not depend on dollar, bitcoin is completely different decentralized currency whose value in future will be 1btc=1btc dollar price drop has nothing to do with bitcoin price drop.

DrBeer

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1. It is difficult to imagine a situation of global depreciation of the dollar. This can only be connected with the disappearance of the US as a state. Therefore, the probability of such an event tends to 0

2. Even if we assume that something happened that led to the real value of the dollar at 0 - the next step is the global stagnation of the world economy.
3. The value will have assets that can be easily exchanged for real money. or assets with real value.
4. Based on paragraph 3, the cryptocurrency, which is today a purely speculative asset, becomes a dubious asset for a long period, and accordingly loses its value. Well, let's not forget - today cryptocurrency is not a real means of payment, which means that its significance is also falling.
5. The distribution of cryptocurrency among the population is one of the most uneven. This means that most people simply will not be able to use it as an alternative to solve everyday problems of buying and selling goods and services.

You can paint the consequences for a long time, but in the end we still come to the conclusion that the value and cost of the cryptocurrency will be greatly reduced.

All of the above is just my personal opinion.

pooya87

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Quote from: kickea on April 07, 2023, 05:00:36 PM

Great answer! What kind of system could we create for a smooth transition were everything would be valued by something other then fiat which would not be affected by inflation?

You are again forgetting the difference between value and price. Things are not valued in fiat, they are priced in fiat. Value of all currencies (dollar, euro, yuan, bitcoin, yen, ...) is in their purchasing power.

Lets say bitcoin price is $28000 and you want to buy an iPhone that is $800 so you pay 0.02854BTC. If dollar tanks and loses half of its value today, you can still buy the same iPhone with 0.02854BTC tomorrow even though at that time bitcoin should technically be worth $56,000.
This is the difference between value and price in simple terms. Bitcoin value and the iPhone value remained the same so you paid the same amount of bitcoin for its purchase despite the price of both bitcoin and iPhone going up against dollar.

To answer your question, we don't need any system for transition. Bitcoin is a stand alone currency that does not rely on fiat currency of one country. The market may be affected because it is still a small market and market participants are known for their emotional reactions but that's about it.

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Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?

I see a lot of good ideas here.

The reason for this thread is to explore if there are some other ways to value bitcoin. Like many of you said, it would probably just hop over to the next largest currency. But do we want the bitcoin to allways be dependant on another currency and its inflatory politics? Many of you also said that the dollar will never go to 0 and there is no reason to worry about this. But every currency in the world is loosing value everyday. Therefore bitcoin is also loosing its value. it may be a stupid question, but would it not be better to have another way to value bitcoin so you could allways buy 1 sack of potatoes for 1 satoshi for exampel?

Price of the bitcoin would be least of your worries if dollar would hit zero. I am positive that internet money would have some value for some people, but just lack of liquidity and all the panic ensued because dollar dropped to zero would most likely wipe all interest and respect for experimental internet money. They were volatile before all the hell broke out so why would they survive absolutely apocalypse scenario? And this chaos wouldn't be inside united states only. Imagine that a world biggest superpower just lost all the power they had. The imbalance itself would cause wars when countries would try to fill it. It would be hell on earth and probably nuclear war. So i really wouldn't bet on bitcoin then.

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I think the OP needs to see the value between fiat/fiat or bitcoin, to me they can both be seen as life tools. As socio-economic changes in positive or negative directions, I gradually realized that what we are talking about is an intangible value built on trust. So don't be too forceful that they will follow a scenario that ties each other, the usage may be common for some cases but they also have its own distinct character.

Topic: If the dollar/fiat was worthless! - page 2. (Read 604 times)