If the dollar/fiat was worthless! - page 4.

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Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

Therefore bitcoin is also loosing its value.

Currencies of other countries depreciate over time because they print money indiscriminately, when there is a crisis, they only know how to print money and print money, which gradually accumulates into a large tumor and will explode. It's only a matter of time. Meanwhile, the supply of bitcoins is limited, and almost impossible to generate more once mining is complete. With an asset with a finite supply and high demand, everyone will be scrambling, so saying bitcoin will depreciate like fiat is entirely inaccurate. The value of a thing decreases when the demand for it is gone, or they become too much, things that are scarce and in high demand never lose value.

coolcoinz

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The main difference between fiat system as it was established and today's fiat is that it used to be based on the Bretton Woods management. The dollar was not created as a stand alone currency but as a representation of 0.88 g. of gold bullion. The way I and many bitcoin supporters see it, that system was good, but it wasn't flexible. Banks wanted more freedom in management and a system where strict rules don't apply, thus since the 70s the value of dollar to gold is constantly going down and it will continue to go down. It used to be under $200 per ounce in the 70s right after they dropped the gold parity and reached $2000 in 2021. That's how worthless the USD is becoming. With the current rate of exponential dilution it's going to reach 10k USD per ounce before the year 2035.

I think that we'll also have a big rally in all decentralized assets and commodities. In the next 10 years you'll see a spike in oil, rare metals and minerals, gold and silver, bitcoin. There's no way around it because even if they were to bring back gold parity it's too late for that, the peg is too far gone to now make a new dollar worth 0.01 of the dollar from the 70s.

kaseygriffin

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OP, reminds me back in the day when people used coins or shells for transactions and now everyone sees how valuable it is in today's life when we have $, and other fiat... So don't just impose the current context that will last forever, over time it will be replaced with convenient things suitable for life at that time. Don't bring bitcoin into the story like that, I think maybe you will understand if one day we will pay directly for goods via crypto.

Yogee

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Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 06:08:39 PM

[....]
Great answer, but what if all other fiat currency went to shit aswell?

This won't be an issue if the goods and services that are offered in the market are priced in bitcoin or in its smaller units You can go to a grocery store and buy an item that's worth 100 satoshis for example. The main point there is that People can still give it value even if fiats don't exist. It can also become useful even when society goes back to the gold standard.

AicecreaME

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Quote from: serjent05 on April 06, 2023, 06:02:59 PM

Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?

If the dollar goes to 0 then Bitcoin will still be 1B = 1B. Bitcoin valuation in terms of fiat currency will be interpreted in another currency if the valuation of Bitcoin in dollar is somehow impossible (dollar getting 0 valuation). Bitcoin fiat valuation or equivalent can be presented in pounds, yuan, euro or any other fiat currency. After all dollar is just another currency of thousand that is existing in the global market.

I agree.

Not only dollar currency is the one we can use globally, there's a lot of currencies out there but those people who are using dollar mainly on their county will gonna have a big problem, unless every store and services on their place will accept Bitcoin as a payment or any cryptocurrency. Dollar having 0 value however is somehow not possible as of now since it is in the hot trend since 2022 because of FED raising interest rate from 4.5% to 4.75% according to forbes.

Reid

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We are just using the USD as basis to determine the value of Bitcoin. Euro can also be used and so do Rupees.
And I would not think about the future of Bitcoin if USD value suddenly crumbles. That will mean a lot of things is happening in the world, one reason could be war.
You would not want that currency going down because I am sure they will go far in putting it back to the top currencies in the world.
But to just answer the question, no, Bitcoin will not be worthless even if USD goes down.

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Quote from: Kakmakr on April 07, 2023, 04:05:53 AM

Well, if the Fiat currencies (US Dollar) collapse, Bitcoin will just take it's place... so each Satoshi will be worth so much more and you will ask for X amount of Satoshi for whatever goods and services you want to buy or sell.

A Satoshi will also be worth a lot more than what it is worth now, so you should not be too worried about the value and it having to be linked to any Fiat currency. That is most Bitcoiners dream.. for Bitcoin to replace Fiat currencies. Grin

Yeah I think that's what most people in the Bitcoin world wishes, for bitcoin to become a fiat currency.

But it would be difficult if the dollar were to lose its value and bitcoin were to replace it as the dominant currency. A loss of value in the dollar could cause economic instability for every country which could lead to a crisis. This could also lead to widespread job losses, business closures and a decrease in the standard of living for many people. More people may turn to bitcoin as a store of value and medium of exchange and yes, it could increase its value.

I doubt that Bitcoin becoming a fiat currency and replacig dollar would happen anytime soon because most governments and central banks are still wary of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies because of their decentralized nature and lack of regulation. Let's not hope for the dollar to collapse.

Supreemo

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Quote from: Zilon on April 07, 2023, 03:10:19 AM

Bitcoin might not have an intrinsic value but within it self it has an equivalent for all currencies in the world, as such if Dollar drops to zero it will still maintain it's value in other currencies that has value and if those currencies faces inflation it will give more value to Bitcoin and Bitcoin value to Dollar will as well skyrocket

Secondly Dollar is a global reserve currency so if by any means it losses it's value another currency will replace it and Bitcoin will still maintain its fiat equivalent for the new reserve.

as more and more people adapt bitcoin, prices will change and it will always increase, unlike dollar that it can be printed anytime, bitcoin on the other hand has limited supply in which it makes it more valuable. i have to agree with some collectors that people are actually attracted to what we called as "exclusivity", this is when something is of limited amount, people will try their hardest to obtain that exclusive item and would try to brag that nobody else has this kind of exclusive thing. same as bitcoin the more people/demand increases while the supply is only limited, of course it is only to be expected that the value is very high.

in terms of reserve currency, we all know that there are several countries who are trying to appeal to the world and announced their currency to be the next reserve currency, and it is also to be expected that it won't happen anytime soon.

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Quote from: Kakmakr on April 07, 2023, 04:05:53 AM

Well, if the Fiat currencies (US Dollar) collapse, Bitcoin will just take it's place... so each Satoshi will be worth so much more and you will ask for X amount of Satoshi for whatever goods and services you want to buy or sell.

But of course the government would take action before it reaches 0, US wouldn't let their fiat money to be worthless as their currency is carrying the country's name. However, if that ever happen then for sure it will have a good impact to the market of Bitcoin. Still let's not forget the economic status of the country if their currencies turn to 0. It might have big issues that people couldn't care about currencies anymore, more like chaos for survival to their essential needs. It might replaced by Bitcoin its still an decentralized system with volatile situation for it to run in a country.

Kakmakr

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Well, if the Fiat currencies (US Dollar) collapse, Bitcoin will just take it's place... so each Satoshi will be worth so much more and you will ask for X amount of Satoshi for whatever goods and services you want to buy or sell.

A Satoshi will also be worth a lot more than what it is worth now, so you should not be too worried about the value and it having to be linked to any Fiat currency. That is most Bitcoiners dream.. for Bitcoin to replace Fiat currencies. Grin

CageMabok

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Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Very interesting question, especially on the value of Bitcoin which you think is very dependent on the value of the dollar. Basically I don't think that the value of Bitcoin depends on the value of the dollar even though the dollar existed much earlier than Bitcoin. I say that because Bitcoin will never lose its value if everyone can still make transactions on it (Bitcoin), even though there are still very many people who measure the price of Bitcoin using dollars so it's also natural that you have time to think about what if the dollar becomes 0.

And I think it won't bother Bitcoin at all because everyone can still use another currency to measure the price of Bitcoin in the market. That's why I don't think the value of Bitcoin depends on the value of the dollar, because other currencies can also be used to buy Bitcoin and vice versa.

Quote

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?

I think Bitcoin is not a parasite that has to depend on any fiat in this world even though many people buy Bitcoin using fiat. So there are no specific ideas or ideas to express here if you think Bitcoin is dependent on fiat which has never occurred to me before.

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Quote from: darkangel11 on April 06, 2023, 06:39:03 PM

...I don't think it's ever going to happen. They FED will see it coming and make a tactical retreat by changing a name of the currency and relaunching it as the digital dollar or something similar. They're going to make the reset without the people knowing that it's the reset. Their whole job is to protect the currency, even if it means sending the military to steal some gold and secure an oil deal, the way they did in Iraq.

Dollar to zero is almost impossible, the US economy may weaken and be surpassed by other powers but will not be able to collapse or disappear completely. So, USD can depreciate and be replaced by another currency, but it can't go to zero.

But no matter which currency is ruling the world replacing USD, they have nothing to do with bitcoin, 1BTC is still 1BTC, and the value of bitcoin will be determined by supply and demand. But if there is a crisis in the monetary system and the USD is toppled, that will be an opportunity for bitcoin because then people will quickly find another safe asset to move their assets.

Zilon

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Bitcoin might not have an intrinsic value but within it self it has an equivalent for all currencies in the world, as such if Dollar drops to zero it will still maintain it's value in other currencies that has value and if those currencies faces inflation it will give more value to Bitcoin and Bitcoin value to Dollar will as well skyrocket

Secondly Dollar is a global reserve currency so if by any means it losses it's value another currency will replace it and Bitcoin will still maintain its fiat equivalent for the new reserve.

CoinEraser

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Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Bitcoin is not only traded for dollars, but also in other fiat currencies. Therefore, even if the dollar becomes worthless, bitcoin still has value as it can be exchanged for other currencies that are not worthless. Therefore, this would not be a problem for Bitcoin per se. Maybe they would start trading it only for gold or other precious metals instead of fiat money. But who can really say what will happen if the dollar becomes worthless. Either way, 1 BTC remains = 1 BTC and as long as you can buy things with it, everything is fine.

Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?

Of course it will be difficult to achieve something like that. Up to now it has been the easiest to calculate its value in fiat currency and I think it will stay that way for a long time to come. But maybe one day it will only be traded for gold or other precious metals or commodities. Maybe also against water, should that be scarce and worthwhile. But even gold, etc., gets its value from being exchanged for fiat money. So basically it would be no different than now. Therefore, it will surely always remain difficult to give bitcoin the right value it deserves without using fiat money.

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Quote from: Fortify on April 07, 2023, 02:25:02 AM

It's a bizarre question really, as Bitcoin is much more likely to go to zero long before the US dollar ever does. If the US dollar fell to zero then there is something very wrong with the world and we're most likely facing some sort of apocalyptic type scenario where nukes have been unleashed all over the world and people are trying to live via subsistence. The US is currently the reserve currency of the world and it has a lot of resources in action that are trying to protect that status, even if newcomers like China are trying to change that status quo. Bitcoin could simply not handle the amount of transactions that the US dollar does every day, so it's never going to be in this sort of position to supplant it.

I have been listening to this theory from the time I was a kid that USD is losing its value and will crash soon. But this is something not happened till date. Even if USD crashes then there are other fiat's lined up to take-over as global currency like chinese RMB.
The case of bitcoin is different, it is created as a separate entity that allows peer to peer cash transfer without intervention of third parties like bank. So its very obvious that it will exists in parallel to current fiat system. As Bill gates said, "Do not compare yourself to others. If you do so, you are insulting yourself" likewise there is no need to compare bitcoin with anything.

rat03gopoh

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What have you understood so far is bitcoin as a representation of the dollar or the same with all existing fiat? Please find reasons why they're traded with each other.

Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:54:41 PM

Which means that the value of bitcoin also decreases as the value of dollar increases.

You answered it, but exactly it's not an effect of either one.

siniminomorocomunisakito

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If the dollar were to become worthless, it is difficult to predict how this would impact Bitcoin's value. On the one hand, if the dollar collapses, it could lead to a global economic crisis and panic, which could cause a temporary drop in the value of all assets, including Bitcoin. On the other hand, if people lose faith in fiat currencies and turn to alternative forms of currency, such as Bitcoin, its value could increase. Grin

In terms of Bitcoin's independence from fiat currencies, one solution is to increase its adoption as a means of payment and store of value. As more people use and hold Bitcoin, its value and stability will become less dependent on fiat currencies. Additionally, developments in blockchain technology could also improve Bitcoin's independence and efficiency as a payment system.

Fortify

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Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?

It's a bizarre question really, as Bitcoin is much more likely to go to zero long before the US dollar ever does. If the US dollar fell to zero then there is something very wrong with the world and we're most likely facing some sort of apocalyptic type scenario where nukes have been unleashed all over the world and people are trying to live via subsistence. The US is currently the reserve currency of the world and it has a lot of resources in action that are trying to protect that status, even if newcomers like China are trying to change that status quo. Bitcoin could simply not handle the amount of transactions that the US dollar does every day, so it's never going to be in this sort of position to supplant it.

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bitcoin is currently often valued in dollars, and what if the dollar suddenly becomes worthless, then bitcoin will be valued based on fiat which was popular at that time. well, it doesn't matter what the dollar is worth, but bitcoin is bitcoin. it is very different to the dollar. bitcoin is only too often valued in dollars. maybe if bitcoin is no longer valued in dollars, then maybe bitcoin will be valued in euros, yuan, or fiat which at that time people were busy using. It's just that, if we think about this, I think the price of the dollar will never be 0. especially now that the dollar is still an international currency.

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Quote from: kickea on April 06, 2023, 05:42:00 PM

What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?
Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?

The dollars losing value would be positive to Bitcoin as then Bitcoin value won't have to be relying on the cash value of the dollars, this could make people see Bitcoin for its worth and it might becomes the new global currency or better still another fiats takes over. We have began seeing the US dollars lose its international dominance as deals are been done in other currency instead of the dollar.

If this continues then soon the US dollars will lose it significants and another fiats takes over. The value of Bitcoin will always be intact and the collapse of other countries fiats won't have any impact on Bitcoin instead we could see more interest in Bitcoin as people look for safeguard to store their money and Bitcoin is the most accessable.

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