Topic: If your games aren't provably fair, stop claiming they are. - page 4. (Read 747 times)

I'm not an expert on the technical side of this problem,but I agree with your statement.
Casino owners must not lie to their customers.Being honest to your clients is a very important part of doing business.This applies to every business,not just the gambling business.
On the other hand,the people should be skeptical about all casinos and they should just play for fun and bet small amounts of crypto.Gambling with the assumption that you will make money and betting big amounts of crypto in slots/dice/hi lo games is a recipe for disaster.
At the end of the day,the casino always wins.It doesn't matter if the games are "probably fair" or rigged.

The question is how the player would be able the verify it,
that's don't give warranty for no manipulation, falsification

Exactly! There is no need to use a third party service when you can do it by yourself in a completely trustless way.
The casinos mentioned in OP can solve the problem and leave no room for doubt by simply changing their pf algorithm to make it use the hash of the server secret plus the client seed to shuffle the decks, instead of relying on the server secret alone.

Hence why you should never rely on an external service for generating probably fair hashes.

Are there any caveats with using random.org within this process? Is there any provably fair that does not involve the traditional client-server seed combo?

That's why I said that it's a buzz word in my previous post. Don't trust what the casino says but verify it yourself. Or better yet, stick with proven platforms and don't be lured by the promises and bonuses that new sites will give you to get you to deposit into their accounts.

It could be done in a way that was basically impossible to prove, and even if you did suspect something and were correct, I would expect you would be treated similar to the way the all too frequent 'I lost too much, it's rigged, you scam site!' player is treated.

They could easily decide to make it impossible for half the Royal Flushes and half the four of a kinds to be dealt and that would change the house edge of their jacks or better game from ~1% to ~4.5%

It would take hundreds of thousands of hands to have evidence of anything suspicious and millions to make a confident accusation.

---

Just added 28 more casinos to the list.

I have not used them and am not associated with them in any way shape or form.

I can assure you that the provably fair system is sound and fully automated & functioning correctly and not a single player has complained about this.

not a single player has complained about this.

However unless you have actually deposited and played on my site - Libel Is A Criminal Offense - ruining websites credibility online without checking in full and making comments as such is a suable offense in a court of law. Please refrain from labelling my website unless you have had a genuine bad experience please. Be respectful.

I know, that's why threads like this one are important. There are also other resources on the world wide web that will teach you how to check whether a game really is provably fair or it isn't.

I've been running into sites using similar methods to implement what appears to be a provably fair way to determine outcomes which could be manipulated by casino owners without detection.  What makes them different from provably fair games that are actually provably fair is the use of a 'server secret' which is a predefined state of the game (order of cards, a number to be rolled, slot reel positions, etc.) which is then manipulated according to the hashed client + server seeds.  The problem is, the 'server secret' is generated without any transparency - completely behind the scenes.  

Video Poker Example:

- The order of the cards is determined behind the scenes, this is the 'server secret'.
- The client/server seed is hashed and used to determine which card will be dealt first. (cutting the deck).

The problem is, the possibility of a high paying hand is first determined during the initial shuffle.  For example, if the A and K of each suit have more than 10 cards between them - there will be no possibility for a Royal flush to be dealt.  

An example of slots from CryptoSlots.com (archive):

https://i.gyazo.com/96bd9686774aca746e67e6ad9c087b96.png

I think this is kind of a big deal and don't think Casinos should get away with promoting their games as provably fair when they aren't, it's bad for both players and casinos that are actually offering provably fair games.  The problem is, the average player just doesn't have a firm grasp of the provably fair concept.  They see 'seed' and 'hash' and just assume that that means it must be fair.

Anyway, I'm going to dig through my post history and make a list of all the sites I've come across that are currently doing this.  If anyone else comes across some that aren't on the list feel free to let me know and I'll update.  Maybe this belongs in scam accusations, I don't know.  I'm fine if it gets moved, but I'd prefer it stay here and the discussion revolves more around why certain methods that appear provably fair aren't.

Cryptoslots.com/Slotland.eu  (forum thread - they disappeared from the forum after I brought this up)
Slots: Sever Secret generates 9 outcomes, Server/Client hash determines which of the 9 outcomes is used.
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Source (archive)

Cryptsino.io (forum thread)
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Dice/3D dice: Server Secret determines "initial roll", Server Client Seed hash determines a number which is added to the server secret.
Slots: Server Secret determines initial state of reels, Server/Client Seed hash adjusts initial state.
source (archive)


Coins777.com (forum thread - owners response)
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Dice/3D dice: Server Secret determines "initial roll", Server Client Seed hash determines a number which is added to the server secret.
Slots: Server Secret determines initial state of reels, Server/Client Seed hash adjusts initial state.
source (archive)

Betabit.casino (forum thread)
Video Poker: Server Secret determines the order of the cards.  Server/Client hash determines where to cut the deck.
Don't see an explanation on their site, you have to verify a bet to figure out how it works.  

I haven't checked the following casinos myself, but they all have the same verbatim terms that include "When you open the game page the server generates a secret and a seed and Reveals its hash" (Identicle to 3 of the casinos already on the list) .  I believe they all use the same script, which is for sale here. (Thank you to Bitinity for posting this in another thread)

Satoshicasino.io
bet42bet.com
zilflip.com
safemars.casino
bigplay.casino
cryptodicecasino.com
e-casino-games.com
cindskillgame.com
winrw.de
woowoocasino.com
cryptomegamillions.com
upcasino24.com
milliontoken.games
winning4good.com
zerocryptopoker.com
cgame88.com
cryptocazino.com
slpcasino.com
everestbet.io
moonjackcasino.com
win-star.co
cash10.io
kasinobtc.com
stakeafrica.com
siraca.com
playtoearn.casino
luckytoken.casino
nulled.to

Only problem here is that not all players have the technical skills or are technical enough to know which casinos are genuine with their claims and which aren't.

I see the provably fair as a motto on almost all crypto casinos.

I don't know at all to check that. I just play based on their popularity with how they pay people to play there. But it is important to know how casino sites have "Probably Fair" even though we know the house always wins.
The big bonuses or promotions that casinos offer are usually a trap for people who don't care about the safety of their games.

Getting the "secret" on your side known by the house can let them doing any manipulation, drawing any result they want
in example if they detect you playing auto-bet will let them know the bets that will be placed

The client seed isn't something that needs to be kept hidden from either party.  As soon as you set it, the casino knows what it is.

Sha-256 provides all the 'randomness' needed I think.

Provably Fair is a buzz word. It's thrown around like other buzz words such as fully decentralized, anonymous, private, etc. The sites are just telling you what you want to hear. They know that the majority won't know the difference, or have the time and patience to research it themselves. Therefore, I don't think such claims will stop. They will keep making their rounds and get even worse.

The best thing to do is expose those who are lying and giving players the tools to check such claims themselves. 

 How about client seeds being leaked? a web html page need just some scripts to do so

 As OP said, when the "server secret seed" can be "manipulated" as much as wanted,  that's don't give any real insurance there

What of creating an external open source tool to secure the randomization provided, even if it bet very well-known, casinos would be forced in some way to adopt it !


 It can be provided from an external server so no need of adding module or extension from the client side

I wrote before about some casinos OP mentioned, they are not provably fair and most of them are probably scam that are using exact same template.
You can find many of them on my topic List of Casinos and Sportbooks to Avoid:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5283832