Topic: I'm Kevin, here's my side. - page 8. (Read 258614 times)

source?

Man, I already explained this yesterday....
THE TRANSACTIONS WERENT REAL

The coins that got sold DIDN'T EXIST

The buy you did was a forge

So, stop whining, and accept the rollback.  

This was a CODE-attack, not a real trade.

Sorry for the font sizes and bolds and stuff, but hey, nobody is listening.


For those interested in numbers:
A total of 51 million bitcoins got sold by 1 sell order this Sunday. If you know there are only 6,6 million coins in existment, you can do the math and see it was a fake sell order.

This is again, why reimbursing everyone (so doing a rollback while letting people profit as if there would be no-rollback) would be most just (and unrealistic since it requires liek 400,000 usd)

he stated too many times that he would be against the rollback.
I think he should return the BTCs but the idea of MtGox rolling transactions back is very disturbing. They will get off too easy.

Let's say we let Kevin keep all of those 200K+ coins,
then mtgox "accidentally" gets hacked again,
and this time that single hacked account happen to be Kevin's
(the hack happened so fast before Kevin could withdraw anything)

What would Kevin say? Rollback or not?

Totally agree with Kevin.

Kids, in the grown-up world, centralized currencies are used for trades.

What if people in china would rob some farmers. The farmers would be forced to work at slave wage or just for food at local factory. It would make new abibas boots from there cost x100 lower then you pay in normal shop. Someone would import them to your country, and you would buy them at x5 lower price at local baazar and then open up a shop.

No wait, not baazar.

You would buy it at most respectable and biggest imported good distributor in your Bitcoinville country.

Later police comes in and takes all your goods. Happy?

Again - I am not saying here necessarily that say mtgox is bad for doing the rollback or anything; Just trying to look at legal-moral problems that arise with trades triggered initially by some wrong doing; How should they reverse, who should refund which trader.

And if the crash would be "just" to @5 then what? Is it some hacking or bubble bursting?
What if @3 ?

Here it happened, first it was drop to @10, then @5 then to @1 and so on.

There are more people involved then the @0.01 guy.

I would buy like hell if the price would drop to say @9, and most people on this forum would. With price @1 I doubt anyone would not buy (unless he started to think the entire bitcoin thing collapsed overall).

Phil21 -> well, guess I got some things not right then and the way it developed (nobody knows everything about all this mess anyway) _sorry_.
Still: I stated "if he really did it" in my post, since I've no proof of anything for or against -and there I am, waiting authority investigations make light on this. Meanwhile, my post applies to all massive bitcoin thieves.
//

Torminalis: be assured that MagicalTux is highly ashamed of himself for not forcing all users to update the password when he acquired Mt.Gox, making the passwords salted at the start. Not even mention the discredit on Mt.Gox and all the other services he's running, many people sure lost faith in his ability to secure websites. As a human, he can only do his best, not guarantee perfection: he may have more technical experience than the average, but he still has 24 hours time per day like everybody. Every expert knows that perfect security in computers is impossible, even the über-safe OpenBSD had 2 remote critical vulnerabilities at standard install in it's history. The internet in it's whole has been hacked and hacked again, making the network stronger everytime (would DNSSEC exist if there weren't any DNS poisoning vulnerabilities ? Buffer protection if there weren't "ping of death" attacks ? Antiviruses if there weren't viruses ?). Bitcoin economy is at experimental state, I prefer Mt.Gox exploited now and reinforce security massively (and anybody else taking lessons) than all markets hacked and coins sucked out while bitcoins are worth 4000 $ each. Preparing good times from the bad times, that's the philosophy.

btw: I'm directly concerned about all this, since I'm hosted on KalyHost and want to pay it with bitcoins - fed up about PayPal/MoneyBookers fees, plus bank tracing. So I really want Bitcoin to go back normal again and stay legal everywhere in the world.

Kevin you make good points, and I think everyone can put themselfs in your shoes, and understand that they would have acted very similar (since the whole situation was chaotic during the crash).

Since the whole problem is complex, I want to point out some key points:
1.) it has to be clarified what exactly has happed. That there were 500.000 BTC on one mtgox account is difficult to believe, but if it was, then the hacker obviously known that, and cracked exactly that password from the database.
2.) When it's clarified that Kevin bought "stolen" BTC i think he legally has to give them back, since the seller had no right to them.
3.) Even tough the rollback hurts a lot of people, I think it is the right way to go.


Who's fault?
f1) Well that lays definitely at the side of the hacker. mtgox gave the hacker the ability to steel BTC's. But mtgox didn't act (if everyone says the truth) criminally, just negligent.
f2) If the hacker would be found, he would be charged with the criminal intend to steel a few million $. Like a bank robber trying to get millions, and he got away with a few thousand (if it's true what mtgox says).
f3) mtgox acted negligent, but they don't must pay for the damage the robber has done.


All in all I think it's right to roll back everything.
But it will probably be impossible to get all the BTC and $ back, that where withdrawn (with no illegal intent (like Kevin)). This money "gone from mtgox" should be payed by mtgox , if they want people to trust in them again.  Otherwise mtgox will be known as the unsecure market responsible for nothing... (good luck finding traders...).

I was thinking about this overnight and if there was a serious database compormise, would you bother moving all of the coins into one account or would you just update a single field to say 500k?

I reckon the coins don't even exist, MtGox cannot afford to cover it and the rollback is therefore all but assured.

The bottom line Kevin (IMO) is that you were the fortunate recipeint of some one elses prank, but you cannot hold onto them because they do not exist. Do get over it, all this talk of running to the authorities to retain your gains is nonsence.

MtGox are going to take a panning over this and will probably go out of business, but the sad truth is that if you force MtGox to honour this trade, you will be taking the coins from the pockets of your peers and not from the security ignorant fools that let this all get so out of hand.

MtGox, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

TL;DR is a bane of society.  You obviously subscribe to this theory as well.

Kevin does not have possession of these bitcoins, so it is quite obvious you didn't even read the original post, much less the followup replies in this thread.  Yeah yeah, that'd be work and all.

Just to help out the reading-comprehension challenged...

~250k bitcoins = at MtGox.  They never left.
~650 bitcoins, the amount transferred by Kevin, are sitting in escrow waiting for this whole mess to be figured out.  He posted that he was working on doing this, and I'm certain he'll post the details in the AM for everyone to see.  Sorry this stuff isn't instant?  Lawyers don't tend to keep 24 hour law offices open.  I really don't think he expected everyone here to be up in arms about 650 BTC he said he'd give back, when there are 250k on the line...

Jesus get facts right before you go accusing people of shit.  It's starting to get pathetic here.

+1 Nescio.

Ok I just kick in this thread to make some things clear:
You surely know what's about "deal in stolen goods" (dunno if the word "concealment" is right, only know in french it's "recel"). Will you accept getting bitcoins if you suspect someone stole these from another account ? Maybe not, you want to stay safe legally said, since this is more punished than the stealing itself.

Short: lots of people not wanting to deal with "probably stolen" bitcoins, selling them, making the bitcoin's value drop, and so on. Then, 250 000 bitcoins robbed:
- will be worth nothing if nobody want to pay for them
- still is illegal

Mt.Gox did the right thing, Kevin is already tracked down for stealing and possible relation with system intrusion and cracking (if he really did it). It's now your turn: give the stolen bitcoins back where they belong (Mt.Gox) and be less charged, or keep them and face more charges and massive bitcoin crisis of interest and value loss.

You can't fuck around thinking you're safe because it's virtual and looked legit to you, Mt.Gox has to hand over all their logs to the authorities and they will easily go up to you. Legally, they have to hand over everything they know to the authorities, may the community like the FBI sniffing on it, or not. Mt.Gox being a registered society, they have to comply to any law of the countries involved, french because of french bank and admin, american because of technical infrastructure, and japanese because of society establishment and admin home. The point is how hard you will be hit in the end, and what impact this will have on the whole bitcoin economy. And how Bitcoin will be treated by the govs.

TL;DR: give the bitcoins back. For the community, for the future of Bitcoin and for yourself.
inb4 domain names "bitcoin.org", "mtgox.com", "tradehill.com", "sourceforge.net"... get seized by ICE (they can, TLDs managed by american societies)

Strange choice of words. Are you by any chance Charles Taylor?

TLDR translation:

Hi, I'm Kevin. The other day I went to the gym and saw a guy get jumped and knocked unconscious in the locker room. The attacker rifled the pockets of the dude on the floor and took off. I smelled an opportunity but since there were others in the room I moved in closer to have the first go at him after the attacker. I quickly put the loot in my locker so noone else could get at it and immediately wanted to take as much as possible of it home, but found that my pockets could only hold a fraction. I knew there were loose bricks on the other side of the wall behind the lockers, but thought I might be committing something illegal if I went for it. Since my fingerprints were all over the place, I immediately went to the janitor and told him who I was and what happened, but he appeared to be on the phone. So I went to the library and put up a note explaining things, hoping for visitors there to gather on my side, and giving reasons why the dude who got jumped should let me keep the booty. I'm thinking some other looters may help me out a bit, and maybe some others who think the dude should have expected to be jumped, after all the gym locks were broken a couple of days ago and he didn't seem to care.

This isn't a legitimate opportunity, it's grave robbery.

I can't believe the greed dripping off my screen. You know it would be fair to roll back, but boy, being a millionaire does sound good. Whatever Mt. Gox' history, this is not right.




ROFL, so when and where does this fight between you and MyFarm take place? So far you were hanging over the precipice of the 'conspiracy researcher' ledge, hovering above the 'paranoid crackpot' abyss, but your FUD here (first attacking Mt. Gox, then turning on Kevin, as long as there is strife eh) makes me think you're a plant.

I think we're (mostly) on the same side here. Yes, there were probably vulnerabilities before the huge obvious one, and MtGox will probably have to (and should, IMO) eat those. But it is the huge obvious one that necessitates the rollback, because of the sheer size of it. As I've said previously, it's the easiest way to get the most people the most whole, which will give MtGox a place to start from to get everyone made as whole as possible. I don't think there's a bad precedent being set here, though. If something like this happens again (And I hope it doesn't) it will be just as clear as it was this time. 'Little' thefts don't need a rollback, the exchange will end up eating those.

The problem with that is that it could freeze a large portion of the Bitcoin economy for months, or even years! This is by far the most dangerous thing that could happen to Bitcoin.

let's suppose there is no loser, it were MtGox' btc all along.

still the trade was initiated by a hacker since why would MtGox sell their own btc and then roll back the trades?

so we're back at the hacker version and nothing changes...

or, if your version if true (some person who did not care about the money decided to throw away 500000 btc to crash the bitcoin economy) - then we should have the person who did want to sell those 500000 btc he OWNED but his trade was rolled back by MtGox and 500000 btc stolen from him by doing so.

Now, where is THAT victim?