Topic: Institutional money into Crypto? - page 2. (Read 6006 times)

You need to understand that the exact same thing can be said about gold. You don't need Wallstreet or your bank to buy real gold. Yet people line up to buy fake paper gold.
That is what banks and Wall Street will do to Bitcoin.
Your bank will not move to Bitcoin so that you can send and receive money without paying the bank. Why would they do that?
When you call your broker to invest 1000$ in Bitcoin, ge's not going to tell you to download a wallet and buy coin on Coinbase. Why would hr do that?

When you stop and think for a minute, Wall Street and banks are not good news to Bitcoin.

I have no doubt that if you ever wanted to buy gold, you would buy the actual gold, and not a certificate. But the vast majority of people choose to buy worthless paper gold than actual gold. I even have a friend who lives not 5 blocks from a gold dealer, yet he prefers to buy gold derivatives and paper gold.

So people are already doing it with gold. What makes you think they won't do it with Bitcoin?



If by progress you mean certificates and other derivatives, than you are correct 100%.


Think about this for a minute. We need the banks to buy just about anything. From paying your bills to buying on Amazon. And they get paid very handsomely to move that fiat paper around for us. Why on earth do you think they would move to something that takes the banks out of business?

That's as meaningless as a horse buggy maker thinking he can put pneumatic tires on his buggy to compete with cars.

Rest assured if a horse buggy maker gets to invest in cars, there is nothing good to come out of this.

Bitcoin certificates? How could that be possible since even without institutions we can own our own bitcoin. With wallstreet money getting into crypto memans a lot to the progress of it. Not that bank will bring funds to crypto but they might adopt to make transactions using it.

You are definitely right, this is an eye opener to everyone but due to the power of the government, all we can do is to follow what has already been made in the past. We are still slaves working hard having an underpaid rates. We have been blind by the rules which we are assuming of their lies. This is why, they want to control the BTC to prevent our freedom of owning it in reality.

Master card recently propose patent for fractional reserve on bitcoin. This will makes master card creating their own bitcoin paper and as for i know this is not real bitcoin like in market. Maybe i am wrong but its the face how corrupt wall street is.

That looks to me as an inverted tautology

It is like saying that if you don't earn money (or generate income in some other way), you are going to remain poor. Or you are poor because you don't earn enough income. Indeed Bitcoin is not going to help you here as you are not earning enough of it. But in this case it is not different form any other means or venue for generating profits (fiat or otherwise)

Essentially, it is a truism, something like "buy low and sell high". Other than that, I agree with your point, for example, about financial freedom always being about the quantity ("size does matter after all")

Bitcoin is the solution to a problem.
And the big hurdle here is that if you don't recognize there is a problem, explaining it's solution to you would be in vain.

All of the G20 countries operate under a crushing debt that can never be repaid. How can it be that all of the 20 richest countries in the world are in debt?

To put it very simply, here in Canada, the government installed the central bank in the 1930's. And roughly around the same time, they started the income tax.

They told us that the income tax was going to be temporary and it was only to help pay for the war.
But that was a twofold lie. The income tax was never going to.be temporary, and it was never meant to pay for the war. In reality the income tax is a direct consequence of the central bank issuing worthless fiat paper backed by debt.

In fact not only the income tax was a result of the central bank, but the continuously increasing national debt is also directly caused by the central bank and it's fiat paper.

Most people believe their income taxes go to pay for the infrastructure and social services. That is an absolute myth. The income tax goes to service the national debt, which is created by the worthless fiat paper. Without the central bank and with an honest monetary policy, their would be no need for income taxes.

And this exact same story is repeated in the USA. In fact pretty much every country that instigated a central bank had to start the income tax and saw a rising national debt.

The central banking system and debt back fiat paper are the greatest scheme pulled upon the people on this planet.

Satoshi Nakamoto and tge early adopters of Bitcoin all understand the above. This is why any form of regulation and Wall Street involvement must be rejected and understood as destructive.

Today the average Canadian pays more than half of his income in taxes to various governments. In the USA it's around 40 cents on every dollar you earn. In Norway and Sweden it's a ridiculous 70-80% of their income going to taxes.

Still everyone around me professes they have economic freedom and they live in a free country. That's entirely false. You are a debt slave. And Bitcoin can be the key to your shakles. If we don't screw it up and demand government regulations and Wall Street money.

It all depends on how you look at financial freedom, because it's very much subjective, but I think that you're describing it in the most effective way for most of the people living in well developed countries.

In third world countries people are satisfied with financial freedom in form of a fair and open economy, and where their payments can't be censored by oppressive regimes that don't want you to transact with whoever they don't like.

If you can blend in both, regardless of where you are in the world, it's much closer to a pure form of financial freedom. I think that's the main priority for a lot of people here. Some will get there eventually, most won't....

let's be realistic,  liberation and financial freedom comes from owning way above average of whatever that majority of people accept as a method of payment one-way or the other. if you are a poor kid and you are not working on it, bitcoin won't help you.

if tomorrow we wake up and every bank out there closes their doors, and the whole world elect bitcoin to be the one and only measurement of wealth, are we all going to be liberated? indeed not, those with more bitcoin stacking will be liberated and happy while the rest will be just as miserable they are now.

financial freedom is always about the "quantity" , how you scale/measure it does not matter, bitcoin,gold,cash,sheep,cows, lands or anything for that matter.

bitcoin's major and probably only strength over traditional system  is "anonymity", and you will never be liberated with 0.1 btc hiding in your wallet.

I don't care about how corrupt and destructive Wall Street is

It is enough for me to know that they can't corrupt Bitcoin, and that (as I explained above) is likely one of the reasons (if not the sole reason) why they have been staying away from it for so long. In this way, you may continue to make noise (like "it would take a few books to explain it to you"), but it still won't make Bitcoin more corruptible or destructible. Bitcoin is not gold (in this regard), and all your actions with it are public and can be pretty much considered set in stone (e.g. who paid whom and how much)

Look dude, I really don't feel like explaining to you how derivatives and paper gold/coin work and how corrupt and destructive the banking system and Wall Street really are.

It would take a few books to explain it to you because it would take way too long. You can start by watching a really good movie with Steve Cartel and Brad Pit called 'The Big Short'. And if you are more of a book worm, as I am, you can read 'The Creature From Jekyll Island'.

In the end most people who invest in gold are only too happy to buy derivatives and paper gold instead of the actual bullion. And most people don't even bother to find out if it's really backed by gold or not as they don't even care. When people tell me they invest in gold, I pull out an once bar. And pretty much all if them are amazed and confess they never saw a gold bar before.

I can assure you that Wall Street getting into Bitcoin will have the same result.

Of course some people who hold a paper Bitcoin might demand to have the actual coin. But the vast majority of investors never do that.

In fact, nothing makes me think so

If you were reading my posts here carefully, I never mentioned the transfer of keys to the owners of bitcoins (Bitcoin certificates, more specifically). I meant that the funds should be interested in convincing people that they actually own the bitcoins they claim they have. If they do, then they wouldn't be able to create more paper bitcoins then there are real ones. On the other hand, if they fail to do that, investors will stay away from such funds

If you buy a gold derivative, you are not actually buying gold.
If you buy a Bitcoin derivative, you are not buying an actual Bitcoin.
When your fund manager or broker tells you your portfolio has a given % of cryptos, they will not send you the keys for you to hold.
When you tell your broker to invest in gold, he doesn't tell you to go to the gold dealer and buy a bar of gold. Ask yourself why.
And so when you will tell your broker to invest in Bitcoin, he will never ever tell you to go to Coinbase and load up on Bitcoin keys.

Wall Street will not plug in an Antminer or buy a Tresor for the benefit of their clients. The faster you can understand this, the better off you will be.

Just take the gold market as an example. The market for gold derivatives is 20x bigger than the actual gold supply. And you can increase the gold derivative market to double of what it is now, it will have only negative effects on the actual gold price.

But keep telling yourself that what doesn't work for gold will work for cryptos. Good luck with than.

When you buy a mutual fund, you don't get any voting rights within that fund when it's investing in stocks of a given company. In fact the fund manager doesn't get any voting rights either.
And if that mutual fund has investments in gold, you don't get to touch a gold bar, and neither does the fund manager.
So what on earth makes you think if there is a crypto mutual fund, that you will get the keys?

If you think your broker of fund manager are going to buy Bitcoin for you and hold the keys for you, you are sadly mistaken on how things really work on Wall Street.

If you think your bank is going to allow you to deposit and spend Bitcoin, and loan you Bitcoin to buy anything by giving you the actual keys to your loaned coin, you are sadly mistaken on how things really work in the banking world.

Actually no, personally I'd prefer if Bitcoin stayed where it is now but with added volatility (say, within the 1k range)


If you are right, then it should bring more volatility. If you are wrong (and I'm right), then it should bring higher prices, as simple as it gets


What government do you refer to here? Anyway, there is no agreement between powers, so any government in particular doesn't mean a shit on its own


It won't work with Bitcoin because you can't sell paper bitcoins without providing a means to validate them, i.e. whether they are actually backed up by real ones. This is the difference between gold and Bitcoin. They have already tried to pull off this trick by creating cash-settled Bitcoin derivatives (i.e. futures) and they fell flat on their face. Their effort mostly failed as no one got interested in this shit. That likely explains why there is no Wall Street with Bitcoin (and may never be)

As you can't fool the blockchain

The banks and government have been handling the USD for the last 100 years ever since it was gradually taken off the gold standard. And as a direct result the USD lost 98% of it's value throught inflation and the USA racked up a 22 trillion $ debt.
And you think these creeps will do go to Bitcoin?  Like they did so good with the USD?

The time for really big players is coming. More whales on cryptocurrency market will give better stabilization. At the beginning always happen strange things and manipulations. With time it all will work for better Bitcoin in the future.

Look, I understand that you want your Bitcoin to go up in price so you can turn a profit. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Where you are wrong is thinking that regulations and Wall Street involvement is going to somehow make the Bitcoin price go up. You think it will bring Bitcoin into the mainstream.

The problem here is that government and banks are not interested in finding a better alternative to fiat which they control. They are not interested in surrendering their control of money, and the supply of money.

Government doesn't want you to have money they can't track, money they can't control and steal from you via taxation and inflation is not what they are after.

And all that Wall Street wants to do is offer you derivatives (a.k.a. paper Bitcoin) for you to invest in.

When they figured out a way to issue paper gold, they effectively diluted the price of actual gold. Because countless people prefer to hold paper gold over actual gold. They are bring told this paper gold is safer, more regulated, and just as valuable as actual physical gold.

Same thing with Bitcoin. If they can sell you a Bitcoin derivative of any sort, instead of selling you the actual keys, they are effectively diluting the price of Bitcoin.

All this is very difficult to explain if you actually believe legislators have your best interest at heart. And it's even harder to explain if you actually believe there is a piece of gold behind every gold certificate in circulation.

And it's simply false to assume we need legislators and Wall Street to get involved to promote Bitcoin. If this was the case, crack cocaine would be dirt cheap.

In fact I wish governments all around the world would outlaw Bitcoin.  At least it would prevent Wall Streel and banksters from openly offering derivatives which have nothing to do with actually holding coin.

Now you don't see the whole picture

There is no other way if we want Bitcoin to succeed in the end. All in all, your position comes down to challenging and defying governments ("Bitcoin was set up to fight against government fiat"). This is definitely not the way to go because it is just stupid and would pretty much be equal to fighting with windmills. There is another approach more subtle and thus more promising over the long term

We should let the governments regulate Bitcoin as they please and see fit as we can't stop them anyway. At the same time no one can stop you from using truly private currencies either if you are actually looking for a fight. And Bitcoin's greater popularity among wider public will also contribute to your cause as well

Yup, that is precisely the whole point of Bitcoin.
And if I ever find a paper Bitcoin, I am hanging it on my wall of shame.
But given that a great many people within this community fon't seem to understand the fundamental value and idea of Bitcoin, if they welcome regulation and Wall Street, what are the chances that the normal Joe on the street will also welcome all that as well?

If Wall Street and banks get their teeth onto Bitcoin, we will see paper coin, coin certificates, and coin oriented mutual funds appear as well as a host of other forms of Bitcoin derivatives. All those would be very bad for Bitcoin.

As I stated earlier, I buy gold and silver. And so I know a few people who invest in gold and silver too. Sadly almost all of them don't even know what an once bar even looks like. They all have gold certificates and gold based investment vehicles. And they all seem to think it's the exact same thing as owning actual gold.

I have little doubt that these people would prefer to have coin derivatives instead of the actual keys.