Topic: [IPVO] [Multiple Exchanges] Neo & Bee - LMB Holdings - page 133. (Read 658701 times)

Yet I don't see in your post a single argument that killed my argument with silver bullets, fire and wooden stake. If the "BTC-denominated securities" are worth more in terms of fiat today than a few days ago, (supposing fiat has the same purchasing power, which is a perfectly valid assumption for the US dollar during this frame of time), how does the BTC/USD rate can possibly change the fact that you have more now than you had before? Of course "keeping the money in your wallet" is always better if you KNOW that money is growing in value and you don't know if the company will or not grow in value. Yet you don't. For example, do you prefer having 2000 BTC today or 1000 BTC in 3 years? The answer to this question is not obvious if you DO NOT know if it will be worth more or less in the future.

^^Pure nonsense.
This argument has been shot with silver bullets, killed with fire & burred with a wooden stake through its heart.  Yet the zombler refuses to stay down.

So again:
If you are holding BTC-denominated securities which are tanking, sell them & keep your money in your wallet.
If BTC gains value relative fiat, you'll win more.
If BTC loses value relative fiat, you'll lose less.
If BTC price stays the same, the value of your coins will stay the same, while the tanking shares depreciate.
Children know this.

People should forget about dividends by now and worry about this business getting clients and start generating profits. Dividends are a secondary issue. If the shares are worth less than you would have if you had just hold your BTC, this is because the company has grown less in value compared to BTC, which is just one of the possible outcomes when you had invested in it. Had the BTC dropped and the company value not in the same proportion, you would have lost less, so in no way you can say that this company worthing much more in terms of fiat money is bad, this is completely nonsense. When you buy the stock you add another layer of risk than can both protect you from losses and reduce your gains. Supposing in a far future a stock of this company value is worth 10x less in terms of BTC, but BTC becomes worth 100x more in terms of fiat and this "100x in fiat" has half of purchasing power than it had at the beggining, it would be nonsense to say you lost money in this since you can buy more than you could before. Would you be better if you had just hold your money all this time? Yes, sure, but in no way you could know that this was the outcome of this situation. The whole thing "1.2 BTC is worth more than 1 BTC" is a lie if you consider it at different times. If today I can go to the restaurant and pay my lunch with 0.1 BTC and in 3 years the same lunch costs 0.05 BTC, then 1 BTC now is worth less than 1 BTC in three years regardless the "1=1" thing. Being against it is believing that in an opposite situation, when you have inflationary money, that "1 dollar is always 1 dollar so they are worth the same".

And it definitely would be.

My point/concern is that if a startup solely concentrates on paying dividends (in this case for a total value higher than the valuation of the company), when will there be any growth? In the Bitcoin world we are used to mining stocks, which have a short life-span that justifies a 100% dividend, but this company is completely different. In the real world companies generally don't pay any dividends at all in the first years of operation and concentrate solely on growth.

+1

A $10 fee per transaction would be fair. Anyone with basic skills could carefully process these transfers at a rate of around three every 10mins - 18 an hour. So they would make $180 per hour, way above what you would need to pay a professional clerk to do this data processing.

^ This. I would consider it as a breach of the Agreement.

To my knowledge, it is intended to be a centralized, private solution provided directly by the company. These are individual private accounts for managing personal, directly-held profit-shares. The site will not be an exchange. It will not facilitate trading needs like an order book or escrow, nor bitcoin transfers. There is no public aspect to the direct profit-share management aspects, as I currently understand it.

The database of holders and their holdings will be backed up regularly, in multiple ways, for both Neo and TAT Investments.

For those concerned about fees, please think long-term, and think about the real levels of data redundancy we have in place before you decide.

If you feel safer being direct, that is one thing. But if you intend to trade, or have ability to sell NEOBEE units readily, nothing will be more convenient than having your shares on a full-service exchange, like Havelock.

Note that Havelock's databases are backed up multiple ways as well, and those lists are provided to TAT Investments as backups. It is the case, across the board, that we are securing the data of all holders quite regularly.

The fees need to be in place as there is simply a high amount of oversight and attention required to manage the quantity of requests for transfers. We made sure that no one is forced to pay a fee in order to hold their current units. We have provided, and still provide, free transfers for thousands of requests for stranded people from BTCT and Bitfunder.

However, optional services are required to pay fees. We do review all fees and services offered regularly, but this is the current framework.

Thank you for your consideration.

but then you pay a fee to move them anywhere.
notice that other direct share systems don't charge fees to move in and out of the system.  Why?  because there is no cost in updating a spreadsheet, and it can be made automatic pretty easily.

You can tell these guys are bankers, because they are charging you to move your own money (that you loaned to them at no interest).

+++1，i hate to pay a fee ，so  i choose direct shares!!

+1
TAT could you elaborate on this scenario?
Cheers,

We should not have to pay a fee to transfer from havelock when the new direct share site goes up...  That's a joke... I never wanted to be on havelock in the first place...

what will be the mechanism for verifying ownership and transparency of the direct shares system?  public log?  API?

To claim them once BF closes (without doing anything) you will need to sign a message using the public address that you used on BitFunder when registering, as per the announcement made by TAT.

Can I just keep the shares stay at BF,and do nothing , does it mean the shares wil turn into direct shares?

No danger, just the possibility of it taking longer for me to start receiving dividends on my own holdings.

I'm finally out. Not only serving a TAT scam, this ipo/stock is doomed. GL to the other holders.

Else we could just hold our precious coins - I would have more of them and not less. Also more fiat if I decided to exchange them...

Whole point was to increase BTC amount.

I'm not keen on this idea. Ignoring for the moment this would entail retrospective changes to the IPO conditions we all used when deciding whether to invest or pass, this would result in a lower share price in addition to lower dividends you are proposing. True, if you look at everything through a fiat lens, that may not seem so bad, but I and many investors no longer think in fiat terms. We elected to buy shares in a Bitcoin company with BTC and expect to see our income and gains in BTC.

The recent dramatic appreciation of BTCUSD may cause plenty of headaches for Bitcoin startups, but also, if played wisely, opens up new and exciting opportunities. I trust Neo to grasp these and turn them to all our advantage... I see no reason why the 0.0035 cannot be met.

In short, when I invested in Neo, I doubled down on the Bitcoin economy and if it pays off, as I expect it will, I don't want to be rewarded in fiat.

I would be willing to sacrifice/lower this part because with current rates we're looking at several millions of $ in dividends, which is not the best plan for a startup.

Thanks TAT, things are moving in the right direction.

I would rather see a robust digital signature based trading mechanism with support for third party escrow signatures but that's just me. I guess conventional "user friendliness" is also valuable. Hopefully we will have decentralized platforms soon enough, and it's not NEOBEE's job to develop these standards anyway.

Regarding fees; I'm guessing the transfer to external exchanges constitute pass-throughs, so I imagine a monopoly is not possible. Someone is bound to come up with better rates and competition should do the rest.

Congrats to everyone involved and looking forward to see the website.