Topic: [IPVO] [Multiple Exchanges] Neo & Bee - LMB Holdings - page 155. (Read 658701 times)

We have to look at why the SEC exists and figure out how we can solve the problems the SEC seeks to solve as a community by self regulation rather than external. The SEC will still be needed but the community, DATA, the Bitcoin foundation all have to come together to lobby to give cryptocurrencies a special status as a commodity with special rules. The rules currently set to go into effect allow for crowd funding but place too many limits and aren't really Bitcoin specific. Until that happens it probably will be best to just build it into the blockchain itself or go direct shares. Whether it is illegal or not is too late to worry about at this time, and by the time anything comes of it then it will be legal anyway because crowdfunding law will be taking effect as soon as the SEC publishes its rules.

The solution is both technological and political. Technological solutions can help give lobbyists from DATA a stronger voice. DATA should be the group that lawmakers negotiate with and discuss regulation with. The SEC cannot put the standard one size fits all regulation on Bitcoin and there should be a push to get a law passed to have customized regulatory status.

There are laws which say barter has to be taxed, but it's practically unenforceable. It's the same situation that will exist with Bitcoin. Bitcoin should not be used for terrorist financing, money laundering, or anything like that. The authorities have a legitimate concern there. The SEC does not have a legitimate reason or concern in messing up the Bitcoin stock market. The SEC should stand down and if anything must be done about fraud and scams there should be negotiations with the community itself. The SEC and congress should set rules according to the current norms and case studies. Until then there should be a moratorium on regulation.

But they probably aren't going to listen to that and will abuse their power? The ability to write code is free speech and you have a constitutional right.


No point. We should just build the decentralized exchanges and then let that operate without ever again having to worry about the point of failure or the trust in a central authority called a central exchange. We do not need Havelock and it is very likely that Havelock's lawyers will make them shut down as well. There is no point in putting your money on the line based around someone else's paranoia. No more suggestions of a centralized exchange, either the issuer will do direct shares, or we build a decentralized exchange. I will not put my money at risk at any centralized exchange even to buy a stock as critical as this one. I don't have the money to waste and would rather give that money to a colored coin project.

It's over. Deal with it.


Doesn't this defeat the whole point. That would be completely selling out to big capital.
If there is something that NeoBee can do to secure shares for unaccredited investors they should do it.

If direct shares are not the answer then they should find a temporary answer until either the crowdfunding law takes effect or the decentralized exchanges come online. Whichever happens first.

well, so far.  there are still a lot of US investors waiting to have their shares imported to bitfunder, and I'm sure not every US investor sold yesterday.

the bid side shows what happens when you don't allow US investors to invest.  They are blocked from putting up bids, hence the low bid price.

if everyone who is going to invest has already invested, then what does that mean for the IPVO which still has millions of shares outstanding?

Well its obvious shares will need to be moved off Bitfunder since it's terms have been changed since IPVO. Bitfunder is doomed now anyway.

The current price doesn't depend on how much money came from US investors.
Look at the volume of last 48hr: ~200 btc.
So, 200 btc of total 9,500 btc were dumped by US investors? Yeah, that's a big piece of money, lol.

The bid side of the order book is so thin only because everyone who wanted to buy shares already bought them at the IPVO price. It doesn't show us how many %% of US investors we have.

there's still several million shares in the IPVO that have not sold. 

US investors can not buy on the Bitfunder, the exchange with the largest volume.

If there was enough capital outside of the US investors in the Bitcoin securities markets, then the price would not be around ~.002 right now.

First of all, NeoBee already got the required minimum of ~9500 BTC. Second, accredited US investors still can invest. And as Danny mentioned, there's enough venture capital interested to buy out the whole IPVO.

Addressing the BTCT.CO holders who don't want to transfer to Havelock and now have their shares in limbo would be great in your meeting.
Let us know. Cheers

well, also consider one thing - is there enough BTC to purchase the NeoBee IPVO shares WITHOUT US investors?  I don't think so.

So, if you want to sell the remaining few million shares, you're gonna have to do something different.

+1

Indeed. These exchanges proved to be pretty shaky so far, one man operations with mediocre PR skills. It's not fun for investors to be concerned with 3rd party risks associated with these exchanges. This novel business model carries enough risk anyways. Hard to stomach the extra risk of some exchange operator being ran over by a car or throwing a temper tantrum and shutting it down.

95% of new business fail in first 2 years. Do you really think taking extra risk of depending on retarded shaky exchange is worth it?

It is unfortunate though. To me, it should have been the way to proceed from the very beginning. For an operation this size, it should be straightforward to found a partner company in a suitable jurisdiction (which supports this sort of "virtual" shares, but what do I know) and implement a basic automated share transfer system through e-mail. It would be slightly more binding than what we have now, while still protecting the holding and being infinitely more reliable. You could still have pass-throughs, so there doesn't seem to be too many downsides. The cost of investor inconvenience we are experiencing now is probably magnitudes higher than what such an effort would have cost.

+1

Any chance you could offer direct shares like Asicminer?
All this stuff about the exchanges makes me feel uncomfortable holding shares there.

Oh sweet sweet justice! I told everyone not to move their stuff to Bitfunder...

Considering that these Bitcoin based stock exchanges may soon be legal, I am sure they can continue to operate in the time before this law passes similar to what happened to the Citigroup merger. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citigroup#Citicorp_and_Travelers_merger

Of course a very good lawyer will have to pull it off, letting the system run for the future until its actually legal. Maybe this cannot be done...

Bitfunder drew gov's attention due to its heavy volume and lots of assets. I don't believe the same will happen to Havelock. The future may prove me wrong, but for the time being I think Havelock is the best option.

Ok, so as the idiot I am I chose Bitfunder as my exchange. Since it's now going to hell, would it be possible to change my choice and send you a follow-up email with my Havelock information?

Spot on!


Honestly you should host the exchange yourself, don't leave the fate of your stock in the hands of a 3rd party!

Converting shares to havelock wont help. Havelock and all centralized exchanges will be blocking US investors. US investors will have to go to direct shares and a decentralized exchange until crowdfunding law takes effect.

Bitcoin can be legitimate and a Bitcoin stock market can work if its part of the blockchain itself. Instead of people looking for the next point of failure exchange people should be looking at how to remove that point of failure using technology. Bitcoin would never have existed if people thought about how to regulate it before innovating. You innovate first and think about how to regulate it after you innovate.

Mastercoin seems to have the right idea. The blockchain itself has every necessary component to allow for issuing shares in a decentralized way. As long as the shares can be tracked to some digital signature nothing else is needed. Any exchange asking for your full name and address is probably doing that to try to block you if you're a US investor.  All any issuer needs is a Bitcoin address and a digital signature. Bitcoin itself allows for digital signing so the best idea is to get out of all centralized exchanges, it's over.

I will not buy any shares in anything until it's built into the blockchain.  I would buy shares in NeoBee. Out of every Bitcoin company out there I think NeoBee is the most important but I wont be able to trust anything like Bitcoinfunder so unless they will do direct shares, go decentralized via the mastercoin protocol, or wait for the SEC laws to take effect, I cannot invest.

I am now awake, just waiting for TAT's return so we can make official announcements.

We had discussed contingency plans and have our own ideas that can again move Bitcoin onto another level of legitimacy.

If it's because what is happening with Bitfunder: