Israel: Operation Protective Edge - page 13.

Rigon

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okay so both sides agree to getting an independent monitor to administer the ceasefire

on the the countdown to the ceasefire the monitor says ...

"right you lot, no shooting after the count of three, - one ... two ... bang - ah someone shot me in the ass, - now stop that you bunch of feckin' hooligans"

Quote

And the shelling of Rafah (which has killed up to 40), but yes it is over. It is hard to tell which militant group broke it this time, but it was likely a Palestinian one rather than the IDF.

I find this a bit disingenuous. Does it matter which group broke it, other than for internal finger pointing at this point?

umair127

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Quote from: Rigon on August 15, 2014, 07:06:17 AM

can someone (ie. sana) explain to me how these ceasefires work, who on both sides is involved, who sets the terms, is something signed, etc.?

Then you have other factions operating in Gaza that hate both Israel and Hamas. Your more Salafi / Al Qaeda style operations and operations based on family clan structures; examples being: the Armies of Monotheism and Jihad in Palestine, the Army of Islam, and the Swords of Truth.

Likewise you have such groups stationed in the Sinai in Egypt as well (example: Ansar Jerusalem).

Verbal agreements are usually given for short ceasefires like this. Larger ones can be signed.

The larger ones though generally consist of more than simply not firing at each other, mainly because Hamas requires it. They will usually say something about the blockade, its restrictions, and the opening of crossing, most specifically Rafah for use.

Usually when the larger ceasefires are violated, they are violated long before violence escalates; deals reached with Hamas in Gaza also haven't historically applied to Hamas members in the West Bank which is another large cause of friction.

sana8410

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Quote from: Rigon on August 15, 2014, 07:06:17 AM

can someone (ie. sana) explain to me how these ceasefires work, who on both sides is involved, who sets the terms, is something signed, etc.?

It really depends on the ceasefire in question. We also have to keep in mind that there are more than two groups involved here as well. the IDF and Hamas are not the only main actors (in fact most of the rockets and mortars fired in the run up to the operation were not fired by Hamas). Hamas is the strongest of a number of militant Palestinian factions in Gaza, and it has (by far) the largest social service provision network which makes it the most resilient as well. There are other major militant actors though, both in the form of Palestinian nationalist fighting militias like Al-Quds (a militant branch of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad movement), the Abdullah Azzam Brigade (the Gaza branch), and the Popular Resistance committee and its militia branches.

Then you also have discord and disagreement between Hamas (the political wing) and its militant wing the Al Qassam Brigade. Hamas may agree to a ceasefire, but can't get its Al Qassam Brigades or other military factions on board. This is what happened with the first proposed Egyptian ceasefire. Hamas said yes, Al Qassam said no. Usually Hamas can get Al Qassam to march to its tune given a little time (since officially it controls it), but that wasn't given in the window of the ceasefire.

sana8410

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And the shelling of Rafah (which has killed up to 40), but yes it is over. It is hard to tell which militant group broke it this time, but it was likely a Palestinian one rather than the IDF.

sana8410

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Such a tactic can only exist in the short run while fighting continues. Once it stops, such tactics cannot endure. that's why post-fighting reporting is so important.

Also of note: Just because someone who is Hamas or works for them dies, doesn't make that person a militant or terrorist. 90% of Hamas' operations have nothing to do with violence and rest in civil service provision. Labeling the local soup kitchen chef as a terrorist because he is employed by Hamas is more than a bit disingenuous. That was over pretty much as soon as it was announced.

Rigon

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can someone (ie. sana) explain to me how these ceasefires work, who on both sides is involved, who sets the terms, is something signed, etc.?

sana8410

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Quote from: Rigon on August 14, 2014, 02:24:04 PM

Quote from: zolace on August 14, 2014, 02:20:38 PM

Quote from: Rigon on August 14, 2014, 01:55:08 PM

According to UN figures, around 900 of the fatalities are men.

I'll leave you to decide if they were "mostly civilians" as is claimed.

Consider three things:

1) Hamas put out an instructional video telling palestinians that every death should be described as a "civilian casualty"

2) Hamas controls everything in Gaza including the Health Ministry

3) Hamas 'clears' their dead from scenes.

After Cast Lead in 2009, they claimed 46 dead.

It was only about 6 months later that they owned up to 600-700 dead. They had lied to the media and the UN.

1.) That isn't accurate

2.) Women are more likely to stay inside on a regular basis so they are caught in the open less.

3.) It isn't a crime to be a man, your attempted logic has no legal standing.

Talk to the UN. Even AlJazeera reported these figures. Sure. All 900 men were innocently going about their day. Given the points I made coupled with the fact that the IDF confirmed 400 terrorist hits about a week ago (they can name a fair few of them) it would indicate to me that the greater proportion of that 900 are combatants.

I get and read daily briefings from the UN. According to their actual figures (as of August 1st) just over 2/3rds of all deaths have been civilian. The 106 UN buildings that they've hit aren't "terrorist hits" try again.

sana8410

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Quote from: Rigon on August 15, 2014, 06:54:56 AM

Quote

Or Israel could actually be a partner for peace and live up to their peace plan promises and thus marginalize Hamas politically to the point of making them irrelevant. But that will never happen since Netanyahu isn't interested in a two state solution at all and never has been.

Hard to do when you are fighting people like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClYwDzrTaEs

I assume this is not the norm? For Israels sake I hope not.

It's hard because Israel can't build a coalition government without relying on conservative king maker parties that don't want a two state solution. Even if Netanyahu were to announce the halting of settlement expansion tomorrow and a discussion on 67 for the West Bank only while keeping Hamas in Gaza under lock down his government would still collapse as the conservative parties withdrew their support. Even the Likud party charter of Netanyahu's party rejects the idea of a two state solution and advocates permanent occupation.

Rigon

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Quote

Or Israel could actually be a partner for peace and live up to their peace plan promises and thus marginalize Hamas politically to the point of making them irrelevant. But that will never happen since Netanyahu isn't interested in a two state solution at all and never has been.

Hard to do when you are fighting people like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClYwDzrTaEs

I assume this is not the norm? For Israels sake I hope not.

bryant.coleman

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Here is a nice proposal from the Newyorker.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/put-gaza-u-n-mandate

Make Gaza a UN territory, with the peacekeepers from UN. Hamas won't be able to launch any more rockets at Israel, and the IDF will not have to bother about the safety of border settlements.

Pedja

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http://d3dsacqprgcsqh.cloudfront.net/photo/aDw0VQd_700b_v2.jpg

Alphi

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Quote from: Rigon on August 14, 2014, 02:34:19 PM

Let's see if the palestinians can stick to at least one truce. They have broken every one thus far.

considering that there are various different militant groups and most of their leadership and communications infrastructure was bombed by Isreal at the start of the campaign..

quite frankly I am amazed that they can stop individuals from firing rockets for so long.

Isreal on the other hand.. with a well trained army and very expensive communications equipment.. has taken no damage to its command structure..
and yet they can't seem to stop their own rogue soldiers from shooting at civilians.

what many people don't seem to realise is that while all this is going on in Gaza there are almost daily attacks by IDF soldiers and settlers against civilians in the west bank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsOJVCeCV0I

the worst kind of propaganda of all is that which justifies the killing of women and children.

while all this conflict in gaza is going on and the Isreali propaganda machine is busy demonising all Palestinians for the actions of a few...
life goes on in the west bank and this is what it looks like...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA3USMfxM0g

Rigon

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Quote from: zolace on August 14, 2014, 02:26:46 PM

Armed groups can't really get away with labeling their dead fighters as civilians. That would cause said organization to collapse as every fighter wants his contribution to the struggle to be recognized.

Absolute rot.

Hamas has a history of hiding their dead so that it doesn't hurt morale and so that it bumps up the 'civilian' casualty numbers.

They claimed 46 dead after Cast Lead. Only admitting 600-700 some months later.

Same with Hezbollah after 2006.

--

72 hour truce announced by both sides.

Let's see if the palestinians can stick to at least one truce. They have broken every one thus far.

zolace

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Armed groups can't really get away with labeling their dead fighters as civilians. That would cause said organization to collapse as every fighter wants his contribution to the struggle to be recognized.

Rigon

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Activity: 994

Merit: 441

Quote from: zolace on August 14, 2014, 02:20:38 PM

Quote from: Rigon on August 14, 2014, 01:55:08 PM

According to UN figures, around 900 of the fatalities are men.

I'll leave you to decide if they were "mostly civilians" as is claimed.

Consider three things:

1) Hamas put out an instructional video telling palestinians that every death should be described as a "civilian casualty"

2) Hamas controls everything in Gaza including the Health Ministry

3) Hamas 'clears' their dead from scenes.

After Cast Lead in 2009, they claimed 46 dead.

It was only about 6 months later that they owned up to 600-700 dead. They had lied to the media and the UN.

1.) That isn't accurate

2.) Women are more likely to stay inside on a regular basis so they are caught in the open less.

3.) It isn't a crime to be a man, your attempted logic has no legal standing.

Talk to the UN. Even AlJazeera reported these figures. Sure. All 900 men were innocently going about their day. Given the points I made coupled with the fact that the IDF confirmed 400 terrorist hits about a week ago (they can name a fair few of them) it would indicate to me that the greater proportion of that 900 are combatants.

zolace

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Quote from: Rigon on August 14, 2014, 01:55:08 PM

According to UN figures, around 900 of the fatalities are men.

I'll leave you to decide if they were "mostly civilians" as is claimed.

Consider three things:

1) Hamas put out an instructional video telling palestinians that every death should be described as a "civilian casualty"

2) Hamas controls everything in Gaza including the Health Ministry

3) Hamas 'clears' their dead from scenes.

After Cast Lead in 2009, they claimed 46 dead.

It was only about 6 months later that they owned up to 600-700 dead. They had lied to the media and the UN.

1.) That isn't accurate

2.) Women are more likely to stay inside on a regular basis so they are caught in the open less.

3.) It isn't a crime to be a man, your attempted logic has no legal standing.

noviapriani

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Israel's capabilities implies that hitting the school if it was hit by Israel was either a case of gross negligence, or was done with the full knowledge of the IDF. Israel isn't using Qassam rockets here (their inaccuracy is one of the reason why the use of Qassam rockets is a war crime), Israel is perfectly capable of aiming.

noviapriani

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Quote from: Rigon on August 14, 2014, 01:55:08 PM

According to UN figures, around 900 of the fatalities are men.

I'll leave you to decide if they were "mostly civilians" as is claimed.

Consider three things:

1) Hamas put out an instructional video telling palestinians that every death should be described as a "civilian casualty"

2) Hamas controls everything in Gaza including the Health Ministry

3) Hamas 'clears' their dead from scenes.

After Cast Lead in 2009, they claimed 46 dead.

It was only about 6 months later that they owned up to 600-700 dead. They had lied to the media and the UN.

It is more subjective, but in your scenario hitting the hospital is an accident. Israel has the coordinates of all such facilities (and UN schools, etc) specifically to avoid them being hit by their weapons. Israel is also perfectly capable of using precision targeting, which is why it gets a lot of flack for utilizing weapons that don't discriminate in urban settings (like cluster munitions and flechettes, or for indiscriminate shelling in said areas, like what happened in Shujayea).

sana8410

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that's why I'm saying these things are undefined. if these aren't outright subjective, they are near impossible to nail down, just because each one has about a million complex factors that goes into it, and of course you have to deal with lots of unknowns. even worse, because of that, it's easy to lie about it.

and then the risk/reward profile is also subjective. if israel for instance says, 99% chance we won't hit the hospital, that means that 1 out of every 100 times they will kill lots of civilians. what is the exact risk/reward profile that constitutes a war crime. even 99.9% means 1 out of every 1000. how many missiles has israel fired? some crazy amount.

Rigon

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According to UN figures, around 900 of the fatalities are men.

I'll leave you to decide if they were "mostly civilians" as is claimed.

Consider three things:

1) Hamas put out an instructional video telling palestinians that every death should be described as a "civilian casualty"

2) Hamas controls everything in Gaza including the Health Ministry

3) Hamas 'clears' their dead from scenes.

After Cast Lead in 2009, they claimed 46 dead.

It was only about 6 months later that they owned up to 600-700 dead. They had lied to the media and the UN.

Topic: Israel: Operation Protective Edge - page 13. (Read 14685 times)