Topic: Israel: Operation Protective Edge - page 11. (Read 14723 times)

Rhetoric.Link?

There are no transparent trials. There is largely just impunity, Israel doesn't even legally classify it as acts of terrorism which allows most who are even arrested to avoid any sort of criminal trial.

The lack of trials doesn't mean that there aren't third parties under Israeli jurisdiction engaging in violent acts against Palestinians during ceasefire periods.

It may be if that was specified, but you have yet to show any example of that. See, here I am asking you for examples, and you're telling me I don't know of examples.

It absolutely is as the terms of many of the past ceasefires stipulate conditionals regarding the blockade. Saying it isn't a breach of past ceasefires seems to indicate a lack of familiarity of what all the past ceasefires entailed.

I suspect that on an international scale, your perspective is a small minority. So you're suggesting that a cook in the US military isn't really part of the army in the event of an attack? How about if that army cook is making food for some civilians? How exactly do you objectively draw the line?

Hamas isn't one or the other it is both. Trying to tell me that employees at a Hamas run soup kitchen should be considered militants is somewhat ridiculous.

This is just rhetoric. I suspect Israel would be willing to engage in peace talks with anyone that agrees that Israel actually exists. Aslong as Palestinians elect Hamas, it's kind of pointless to expect Israel to negotiate with people only negotiating in bad faith.


You are saying Hamas is not really a militant group while also saying they have the militant wing that is causing the problems. You can't have it both ways.

I don't see any examples there. Also, 1) is not a ceasefire violation. 2) would be subject to what I described earlier with transparent trials and 3) is pretty straightforward. If a country agrees to a ceasefire with one party under specific terms, it doesn't affect other countries or other groups unless it's specifically part of the ceasefire.

But I would like to browse through some examples if possible of the sort of blatant disregard for ceasefires such as the recent Hamas disaster.

Like I said before, death statistics are always difficult to calculate in the best of times. I tend to go with the UN figures since they tend to be a little more conservative. During Operation Cast Lead Israel declared anything Hamas a legitimate target, so when Israel calculates its figures it is likely to classify all civilian employees of Hamas as simply "militants" without making the distinction between someone from the Al Qassam Brigades and someone who was say a Hamas soccer coach or political activist.

sooooo.... what are the numbers we believe?

there is no doubt at all that both Isreal and hamas use propaganda to further their gains.. that article is a good example of isreali propaganda.
firstly it paints a picture of Hamas being a Terrorist group in control of Gaza.

Hamas is actually the political organisation.. Al-Qassam is actually the militant group..
the article neglects to mention that Hamas was also democratically elected.

this shows very clear bias.

Steven Stotsky is a pro isreal journalist who works for CAMERA and the Isreali press.


you have to ask yourself why is a group calling themselves Accuracy in Middle east Reporting only focussing on Anti-Isreal bias?
why not focus on all bias and propaganda from all sides in the middle east?

I think ill pass on the propaganda and wait for the official UN figures.
 
here is more if you want to read about what CAMERA actually is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_Accuracy_in_Middle_East_Reporting_in_America

Hamas' is really a catch-all term that we use for the organization. Hamas technically is a civil service and political organization and network. It's militant wing (what most people probably think of when they say Hamas) are the Al Qassam Brigades. 90% of Hamas (the entire umbrella) is rooted in non-militant activities; everything from the running of soup kitchens, to sports teams, to schools, charities, community centers, etc. Being a member of / employed by Hamas doesn't mean that you are automatically a militant.

Which is what makes Israel not being a partner for peace with Abbas and instead breathing life into Hamas all the more frustrating. I would love nothing more than to see Hamas politically marginalized and eventually dismantled, Israeli policy isn't conducive to that though.

I can give several, both blatant violations, violations by third parties, and violations of what I would call the spirit of the ceasefire.

1.) Blatant violations largely surround the issue of border closure policies and the blockade. Every day that Israel closed the borders on humanitarian aid and civilian commercial flow, every day that it prevented Palestinians from fishing is a day that past ceasefires have been violated. That applies especially to Operation Cast Lead and is exactly the reason why Hamas didn't renew the ceasefire which led to the violence.

2.) Pricetag attacks are pretty common in the West Bank and have been on the rise. That represents third parties under Israeli jurisdiction engaging in acts of terrorism against Palestinians while ceasefires were in effect (the pricetag attacks are fairly regular).

3.) In terms of the spirit of the law. Israel routinely targets Hamas members (and members of other Gazan factions) in the West Bank during ceasefires with Hamas. When Hamas has complained in the past Israel's response has been "Our ceasefire only applies to Gaza." When you kill or arbitrarily arrest members of say the Palestinian Islamic Jihad's familial structure in the West Bank you shouldn't be surprised when Hamas' ability to coerce said organization into refraining from retaliating is somewhat compromised.

Also, you didn't deal with the insane person Osama Hamdan and his comments. As I think you know, I find both parties to blame. But at this point, Hamas is a huge deterrent to anything being accomplished. Their comments are pretty much insane, and they don't even bother to agree that Israel has a right to exist. There really is no way for Israel to negotiate.

Sana,Alphy, what's the deal with this?

http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-...an-casualties/

Can you give some examples of Israel not living up to ceasefire agreements where the parties involved weren't tried in a transparent court of law?

aye perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Israel was bombing Hamas police stations and the houses of Hamas officials in the early days of the campaign.

or the fact that the "negotiators" and spokes people are actually people who live outside of Gaza.

this is why I have stated that its actually quite impressive that Hamas negotiators can even manage get people running around on the ground to stop firing. especially when some of those people are fuelled with blood rage after seeing their families and neighbourhoods destroyed.

its not like they can call them up on the phone and say "hey ahmed you can stop firing now Isreal wants to talk"

What you seem to want is for Hamas to be a more highly centralized dictatorial governance structure than it actually is and is capable of being and all of this despite the huge destruction of the Strip's infrastructure. It is unrealistic to expect things to be able to be 100% controlled right away. That's impossible, and such impossibilities are not limited to this conflict, it is a pretty standard characteristic of conflicts in general.

And if you want me to start on the broader "living up to ceasefire promises" issue, then Israel performs just as badly in that department via historical ceasefires; only they do so under the venue of actually having strong control over its factions which makes the violations official state policy rather than an inability to control some fringe elements.

You seem to want to delve into the reasons both sides hate each other. That's not what I'm discussing. I'm discussing the ability of Hamas to live up to it's promises, when the political arm of it and the military arm seem to never know what the other is doing.

And then Hamas has people like this for their spokesman:

http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/ham.../04/id/586835/

These people are literally insane, and can't really be negotiated with, with any degree of confidence.