Israel: Operation Protective Edge - page 10.

sana8410

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If you want that to change, then Palestinian tactics have to change

Once again, I don't find anything to support this idea that things would change if rocket attacks stopped. I am against them and think they should stop, but statistically speaking the notion that Israel is a larger partner for peace in the absence of rocket fire is mathematically false and carries no supporting evidence.

zolace

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Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 12:42:29 PM

Quote from: zolace on August 15, 2014, 12:27:25 PM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 12:16:20 PM

Quote from: zolace on August 15, 2014, 11:51:40 AM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 11:42:19 AM

Quote

But I would like to browse through some examples if possible of the sort of blatant disregard for ceasefires such as the recent Hamas disaster.

There are hundreds of them, what specifically would you like an example of?

Quote

This is just rhetoric. I suspect Israel would be willing to engage in peace talks with anyone that agrees that Israel actually exists.

Abbas has always recognized Israel's right to exist, that was granted by the Palestinian Authority before he even came into power, and it certainly hasn't made Israel any more willing to halt settlement expansion as per their past peace plan promises.

Quote

As long as Palestinians elect Hamas, it's kind of pointless to expect Israel to negotiate with people only negotiating in bad faith.

This is just rhetoric

I think I answered this in the body of this post. I'm not arguing that Israel is not culpable. I'm saying there is no moving forward when there are rockets falling on Israel, and when Hamas...whether you like them or not...refuse to acknowledge Israel exists. In truth, Israel's choices are pretty limited when you consider the geography of the area, and the weaponry available to Hamas.

I find this to be a bit of a scapegoat excuse in the face of the fact that Israel does have a partner for peace with which to work in Abbas and has refused to do so for the past 8 years regardless of how calm or volatile things are over in Gaza. You claim that Israel would be a partner for peace if there were no rockets? Then why hasn't Israel lived up to any of its West Bank specific peace plan promises to the PA despite years of peace in the West Bank? Why haven't we seen any follow through on peace plan promises even when things are also quiet in Gaza?

A good part of the answer to this is that Israel does not believe Abbas has the gravitas to get the job done. Linking up with Hamas did not help that at all. You seem to be looking for me to defend Israel. Let me make this easy. I don't defend Israel. What they're doing isn't "fair". But the sad truth is that life isn't fair. When I think of Israel, I look at them as a democracy in name only, and only going that far in order to keep the goodwill of the US. Israel is the bully on the block because they have by far the most and best firepower. And as long as they do have that...which they do, and as long as they are willing to use it...which they are, and as long as they keep pointing to rockets firing on Israel...they will continue to kill large numbers of people.

1.) Abbas has been able to very effectively increase Palestinian security in the West Bank so unless you can get more specific then I can't really concede to your point.

2.) a unity government used to be a per-requsite by Israel and the lack of it an excuse not to engage and now it's existence is an excuse not to engage? Which is it?

3.) The unity government is a very new issue and doesn't account for Israel's lack of engagement over the last 8 years.

Right. But he doesn't have the ability to do so in Gaza.
It doesn't matter if you believe Israel to be duplicitous. They are easily able to deflect this.
Israel can give a very solid perspective on why they are in the right, therefore pragmatically, this isn't important.

zolace

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Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 12:31:38 PM

Quote from: zolace on August 15, 2014, 12:10:18 PM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 12:01:20 PM

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I find the irony in you saying Israel doesn't recognize a state entity great, considering the position of Hamas. And you wonder why I say both sides are at fault equally?

And yet you don't seem to want to acknowledge anything that Israel is at fault for while i've already said that I strongly dislike Hamas and want to see it marginalized and dismantled while simultaneously not denying any of the human rights abuses that they have engaged in. I'm not the one with the seeming double standards here in my stances.

I'm not going to deal the prior stuff because it's not really what I was trying to discuss. I can easily acknowledge Israel's fault in many things. The most obvious being that if you try to use force to keep people in poverty and oppression, they will ALWAYS be willing to die to try and lift the yoke. That's human nature, and a serious problem with ISrael. What I see no point in is discussing breaches by either side, and I accidentally let myself get drawn into it. I'm only interested in pragmatic solutions. And as long as Israel has the trump hand, which it will for longer than I will be alive, the way to negotiate is not to throw rockets at them. Tempting as it may be out of anger, or frustration, or whatever. That is the reality on the ground.

How can one hope to make pragmatic solutions without understanding the details of ceasefire efforts, the structure of Hamas, or the grievances of the Palestinians? You can't ignore the above if you are interested in pragmatic or sustainable solutions.

They aren't particularly important in the sense that Israel will do what it feels is in their own best interests, whether you or I think they are right. And they have the muscle to make that happen.

sana8410

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You seem to be looking for me to defend Israel. Let me make this easy. I don't defend Israel. What they're doing isn't "fair". But the sad truth is that life isn't fair.

I'm not asking for fair. I'm asking for the provision of basic human rights and compliance with basic international laws. Fair would be a one state solution with Palestinians having full citizenship rights. That's not what I am seeking.

Alphi

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Quote from: zolace on August 15, 2014, 12:35:28 PM

If you want that to change, then Palestinian tactics have to change. If Palestinians continue to shoot rockets, kill nonviolent protesters for protesting against Hamas, make over the top statements about jews mixing Christian blood in Matzo, then the American public will NEVER drop their support of Israel. And I hate to tell you the bad news...even if Israel is provoking an attack, it can't be allowed to happen.

public support for Isreal has been steadily falling for years.. the only time it rises is when they have a conflict like this... Claiming to be under threat by Terrorism is the only way that Isreal can get public support nowdays and yes Hamas feeds that by continuing to fire rockets when they know they wont do much damage.

I'm not sure if ISIS will change the ballgame but if they do destabilize Jordan then Isreal wont be able to hold back the millions of refugees streaming across the border. It looks like things can only get worse before they get better..

zolace

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If you really think there is a quick solution for the Israeli Palestinian that involves Israel backing down initially, then you would also think that a loud group calling for the repeal of the second amendment just might win. Neither is even remotely possible at this time, or for the next 30 years. And I'm not discussing your personal opinion of gun control, btw. I don't know your position, and it's only an analogy.

sana8410

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Activity: 448

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Quote from: zolace on August 15, 2014, 12:27:25 PM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 12:16:20 PM

Quote from: zolace on August 15, 2014, 11:51:40 AM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 11:42:19 AM

Quote

But I would like to browse through some examples if possible of the sort of blatant disregard for ceasefires such as the recent Hamas disaster.

There are hundreds of them, what specifically would you like an example of?

Quote

This is just rhetoric. I suspect Israel would be willing to engage in peace talks with anyone that agrees that Israel actually exists.

Abbas has always recognized Israel's right to exist, that was granted by the Palestinian Authority before he even came into power, and it certainly hasn't made Israel any more willing to halt settlement expansion as per their past peace plan promises.

Quote

As long as Palestinians elect Hamas, it's kind of pointless to expect Israel to negotiate with people only negotiating in bad faith.

This is just rhetoric

I think I answered this in the body of this post. I'm not arguing that Israel is not culpable. I'm saying there is no moving forward when there are rockets falling on Israel, and when Hamas...whether you like them or not...refuse to acknowledge Israel exists. In truth, Israel's choices are pretty limited when you consider the geography of the area, and the weaponry available to Hamas.

I find this to be a bit of a scapegoat excuse in the face of the fact that Israel does have a partner for peace with which to work in Abbas and has refused to do so for the past 8 years regardless of how calm or volatile things are over in Gaza. You claim that Israel would be a partner for peace if there were no rockets? Then why hasn't Israel lived up to any of its West Bank specific peace plan promises to the PA despite years of peace in the West Bank? Why haven't we seen any follow through on peace plan promises even when things are also quiet in Gaza?

A good part of the answer to this is that Israel does not believe Abbas has the gravitas to get the job done. Linking up with Hamas did not help that at all. You seem to be looking for me to defend Israel. Let me make this easy. I don't defend Israel. What they're doing isn't "fair". But the sad truth is that life isn't fair. When I think of Israel, I look at them as a democracy in name only, and only going that far in order to keep the goodwill of the US. Israel is the bully on the block because they have by far the most and best firepower. And as long as they do have that...which they do, and as long as they are willing to use it...which they are, and as long as they keep pointing to rockets firing on Israel...they will continue to kill large numbers of people.

1.) Abbas has been able to very effectively increase Palestinian security in the West Bank so unless you can get more specific then I can't really concede to your point.

2.) a unity government used to be a per-requsite by Israel and the lack of it an excuse not to engage and now it's existence is an excuse not to engage? Which is it?

3.) The unity government is a very new issue and doesn't account for Israel's lack of engagement over the last 8 years.

zolace

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This isn't a question of right and wrong, it's a question of what is possible. This is no different than the gun debate in the US. While it's possible to make some changes along the margin, it would only be possible if it were approached softly. With the history of fighting between pro and anti gun groups, it would take years of soft approaches to accomplish anything. Instead, the people listened to are the BAN ALL GUNS idiots, who do nothing but destroy their own case.

zolace

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If you want that to change, then Palestinian tactics have to change. If Palestinians continue to shoot rockets, kill nonviolent protesters for protesting against Hamas, make over the top statements about jews mixing Christian blood in Matzo, then the American public will NEVER drop their support of Israel. And I hate to tell you the bad news...even if Israel is provoking an attack, it can't be allowed to happen.

sana8410

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Quote from: zolace on August 15, 2014, 12:10:18 PM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 12:01:20 PM

Quote

I find the irony in you saying Israel doesn't recognize a state entity great, considering the position of Hamas. And you wonder why I say both sides are at fault equally?

And yet you don't seem to want to acknowledge anything that Israel is at fault for while i've already said that I strongly dislike Hamas and want to see it marginalized and dismantled while simultaneously not denying any of the human rights abuses that they have engaged in. I'm not the one with the seeming double standards here in my stances.

I'm not going to deal the prior stuff because it's not really what I was trying to discuss. I can easily acknowledge Israel's fault in many things. The most obvious being that if you try to use force to keep people in poverty and oppression, they will ALWAYS be willing to die to try and lift the yoke. That's human nature, and a serious problem with ISrael. What I see no point in is discussing breaches by either side, and I accidentally let myself get drawn into it. I'm only interested in pragmatic solutions. And as long as Israel has the trump hand, which it will for longer than I will be alive, the way to negotiate is not to throw rockets at them. Tempting as it may be out of anger, or frustration, or whatever. That is the reality on the ground.

How can one hope to make pragmatic solutions without understanding the details of ceasefire efforts, the structure of Hamas, or the grievances of the Palestinians? You can't ignore the above if you are interested in pragmatic or sustainable solutions.

zolace

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Activity: 364

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Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 12:16:20 PM

Quote from: zolace on August 15, 2014, 11:51:40 AM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 11:42:19 AM

Quote

But I would like to browse through some examples if possible of the sort of blatant disregard for ceasefires such as the recent Hamas disaster.

There are hundreds of them, what specifically would you like an example of?

Quote

This is just rhetoric. I suspect Israel would be willing to engage in peace talks with anyone that agrees that Israel actually exists.

Abbas has always recognized Israel's right to exist, that was granted by the Palestinian Authority before he even came into power, and it certainly hasn't made Israel any more willing to halt settlement expansion as per their past peace plan promises.

Quote

As long as Palestinians elect Hamas, it's kind of pointless to expect Israel to negotiate with people only negotiating in bad faith.

This is just rhetoric

I think I answered this in the body of this post. I'm not arguing that Israel is not culpable. I'm saying there is no moving forward when there are rockets falling on Israel, and when Hamas...whether you like them or not...refuse to acknowledge Israel exists. In truth, Israel's choices are pretty limited when you consider the geography of the area, and the weaponry available to Hamas.

I find this to be a bit of a scapegoat excuse in the face of the fact that Israel does have a partner for peace with which to work in Abbas and has refused to do so for the past 8 years regardless of how calm or volatile things are over in Gaza. You claim that Israel would be a partner for peace if there were no rockets? Then why hasn't Israel lived up to any of its West Bank specific peace plan promises to the PA despite years of peace in the West Bank? Why haven't we seen any follow through on peace plan promises even when things are also quiet in Gaza?

A good part of the answer to this is that Israel does not believe Abbas has the gravitas to get the job done. Linking up with Hamas did not help that at all. You seem to be looking for me to defend Israel. Let me make this easy. I don't defend Israel. What they're doing isn't "fair". But the sad truth is that life isn't fair. When I think of Israel, I look at them as a democracy in name only, and only going that far in order to keep the goodwill of the US. Israel is the bully on the block because they have by far the most and best firepower. And as long as they do have that...which they do, and as long as they are willing to use it...which they are, and as long as they keep pointing to rockets firing on Israel...they will continue to kill large numbers of people.

sana8410

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Activity: 448

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Quote from: zolace on August 15, 2014, 11:51:40 AM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 11:42:19 AM

Quote

But I would like to browse through some examples if possible of the sort of blatant disregard for ceasefires such as the recent Hamas disaster.

There are hundreds of them, what specifically would you like an example of?

Quote

This is just rhetoric. I suspect Israel would be willing to engage in peace talks with anyone that agrees that Israel actually exists.

Abbas has always recognized Israel's right to exist, that was granted by the Palestinian Authority before he even came into power, and it certainly hasn't made Israel any more willing to halt settlement expansion as per their past peace plan promises.

Quote

As long as Palestinians elect Hamas, it's kind of pointless to expect Israel to negotiate with people only negotiating in bad faith.

This is just rhetoric

I think I answered this in the body of this post. I'm not arguing that Israel is not culpable. I'm saying there is no moving forward when there are rockets falling on Israel, and when Hamas...whether you like them or not...refuse to acknowledge Israel exists. In truth, Israel's choices are pretty limited when you consider the geography of the area, and the weaponry available to Hamas.

I find this to be a bit of a scapegoat excuse in the face of the fact that Israel does have a partner for peace with which to work in Abbas and has refused to do so for the past 8 years regardless of how calm or volatile things are over in Gaza. You claim that Israel would be a partner for peace if there were no rockets? Then why hasn't Israel lived up to any of its West Bank specific peace plan promises to the PA despite years of peace in the West Bank? Why haven't we seen any follow through on peace plan promises even when things are also quiet in Gaza?

zolace

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Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 12:01:20 PM

Quote

I find the irony in you saying Israel doesn't recognize a state entity great, considering the position of Hamas. And you wonder why I say both sides are at fault equally?

And yet you don't seem to want to acknowledge anything that Israel is at fault for while i've already said that I strongly dislike Hamas and want to see it marginalized and dismantled while simultaneously not denying any of the human rights abuses that they have engaged in. I'm not the one with the seeming double standards here in my stances.

I'm not going to deal the prior stuff because it's not really what I was trying to discuss. I can easily acknowledge Israel's fault in many things. The most obvious being that if you try to use force to keep people in poverty and oppression, they will ALWAYS be willing to die to try and lift the yoke. That's human nature, and a serious problem with ISrael. What I see no point in is discussing breaches by either side, and I accidentally let myself get drawn into it. I'm only interested in pragmatic solutions. And as long as Israel has the trump hand, which it will for longer than I will be alive, the way to negotiate is not to throw rockets at them. Tempting as it may be out of anger, or frustration, or whatever. That is the reality on the ground.

sana8410

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Activity: 448

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Quote

I find the irony in you saying Israel doesn't recognize a state entity great, considering the position of Hamas. And you wonder why I say both sides are at fault equally?

And yet you don't seem to want to acknowledge anything that Israel is at fault for while i've already said that I strongly dislike Hamas and want to see it marginalized and dismantled while simultaneously not denying any of the human rights abuses that they have engaged in. I'm not the one with the seeming double standards here in my stances.

sana8410

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

Quote from: zolace on August 15, 2014, 11:51:40 AM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 11:42:19 AM

Quote

But I would like to browse through some examples if possible of the sort of blatant disregard for ceasefires such as the recent Hamas disaster.

There are hundreds of them, what specifically would you like an example of?

Quote

This is just rhetoric. I suspect Israel would be willing to engage in peace talks with anyone that agrees that Israel actually exists.

Abbas has always recognized Israel's right to exist, that was granted by the Palestinian Authority before he even came into power, and it certainly hasn't made Israel any more willing to halt settlement expansion as per their past peace plan promises.

Quote

As long as Palestinians elect Hamas, it's kind of pointless to expect Israel to negotiate with people only negotiating in bad faith.

This is just rhetoric

I think I answered this in the body of this post. I'm not arguing that Israel is not culpable. I'm saying there is no moving forward when there are rockets falling on Israel, and when Hamas...whether you like them or not...refuse to acknowledge Israel exists. In truth, Israel's choices are pretty limited when you consider the geography of the area, and the weaponry available to Hamas.

You should know that I have better standards than that. Why you are so adverse to believing a very well documented issue (so much so that it is covered by the US State Department's own terrorism reportings) is beyond me. Or rather more concerning: why you would be so ready to dismiss such a widespread phenomenon as mere rhetoric. The West Bank settler pricetag campaign hasn't been very secretive.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/11/21/i...ttler-violence

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/och...11_english.pdf

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/un-sa...attacks-4-fold

zolace

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Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 11:42:19 AM

Quote

But I would like to browse through some examples if possible of the sort of blatant disregard for ceasefires such as the recent Hamas disaster.

There are hundreds of them, what specifically would you like an example of?

Quote

This is just rhetoric. I suspect Israel would be willing to engage in peace talks with anyone that agrees that Israel actually exists.

Abbas has always recognized Israel's right to exist, that was granted by the Palestinian Authority before he even came into power, and it certainly hasn't made Israel any more willing to halt settlement expansion as per their past peace plan promises.

Quote

As long as Palestinians elect Hamas, it's kind of pointless to expect Israel to negotiate with people only negotiating in bad faith.

This is just rhetoric

I think I answered this in the body of this post. I'm not arguing that Israel is not culpable. I'm saying there is no moving forward when there are rockets falling on Israel, and when Hamas...whether you like them or not...refuse to acknowledge Israel exists. In truth, Israel's choices are pretty limited when you consider the geography of the area, and the weaponry available to Hamas.

sana8410

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Quote from: zolace on August 15, 2014, 11:19:19 AM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 11:13:47 AM

Quote from: zolace on August 15, 2014, 10:47:05 AM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 09:24:16 AM

Quote from: Rigon on August 15, 2014, 09:08:14 AM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 09:02:22 AM

Quote from: Rigon on August 15, 2014, 08:55:36 AM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 08:32:47 AM

Quote

They can't be trusted, any more than if Israel said they would go along with the ceasefire, and some faction within Israel decided to attack Palestinians.

That literally happens during every single ceasefire that has ever existed and lasted any significant amount of time since Hamas' takeover of Gaza. Also, according to these standards, the Abbas government should be in a permanent state of war with Israel.

You seem to want to delve into the reasons both sides hate each other. That's not what I'm discussing. I'm discussing the ability of Hamas to live up to it's promises, when the political arm of it and the military arm seem to never know what the other is doing.

And then Hamas has people like this for their spokesman:

http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/ham.../04/id/586835/

These people are literally insane, and can't really be negotiated with, with any degree of confidence.

What you seem to want is for Hamas to be a more highly centralized dictatorial governance structure than it actually is and is capable of being and all of this despite the huge destruction of the Strip's infrastructure. It is unrealistic to expect things to be able to be 100% controlled right away. That's impossible, and such impossibilities are not limited to this conflict, it is a pretty standard characteristic of conflicts in general.

And if you want me to start on the broader "living up to ceasefire promises" issue, then Israel performs just as badly in that department via historical ceasefires; only they do so under the venue of actually having strong control over its factions which makes the violations official state policy rather than an inability to control some fringe elements.

Can you give some examples of Israel not living up to ceasefire agreements where the parties involved weren't tried in a transparent court of law?

I can give several, both blatant violations, violations by third parties, and violations of what I would call the spirit of the ceasefire.

1.) Blatant violations largely surround the issue of border closure policies and the blockade. Every day that Israel closed the borders on humanitarian aid and civilian commercial flow, every day that it prevented Palestinians from fishing is a day that past ceasefires have been violated. That applies especially to Operation Cast Lead and is exactly the reason why Hamas didn't renew the ceasefire which led to the violence.

2.) Pricetag attacks are pretty common in the West Bank and have been on the rise. That represents third parties under Israeli jurisdiction engaging in acts of terrorism against Palestinians while ceasefires were in effect (the pricetag attacks are fairly regular).

3.) In terms of the spirit of the law. Israel routinely targets Hamas members (and members of other Gazan factions) in the West Bank during ceasefires with Hamas. When Hamas has complained in the past Israel's response has been "Our ceasefire only applies to Gaza." When you kill or arbitrarily arrest members of say the Palestinian Islamic Jihad's familial structure in the West Bank you shouldn't be surprised when Hamas' ability to coerce said organization into refraining from retaliating is somewhat compromised.

I don't see any examples there. Also, 1) is not a ceasefire violation. 2) would be subject to what I described earlier with transparent trials and 3) is pretty straightforward. If a country agrees to a ceasefire with one party under specific terms, it doesn't affect other countries or other groups unless it's specifically part of the ceasefire.

But I would like to browse through some examples if possible of the sort of blatant disregard for ceasefires such as the recent Hamas disaster.

It absolutely is as the terms of many of the past ceasefires stipulate conditionals regarding the blockade. Saying it isn't a breach of past ceasefires seems to indicate a lack of familiarity of what all the past ceasefires entailed.

It may be if that was specified, but you have yet to show any example of that. See, here I am asking you for examples, and you're telling me I don't know of examples.

I gave you an example, the ceasefire that lasted until the start of Operation Cast Lead. In fact, the specific reason why the ceasefire ended (or rather wasn't renewed) wasn't over attacks at all, it was called off because Hamas demanded that Israel allow EU monitors to be stationed in Egypt, not Israel so that Israel couldn't prevent the opening of the Rafah crossing by preventing the movement of said monitors to Rafah.

Even the last Egyptian ceasefire (of 2012) had a stipulation pertaining to the blockade, and that provision has always been key to Hamas which is why it rejected Egypt's original ceasefire option this time that made no mention of the blockade.

An example from 2012: note section 1C: http://live.reuters.com/Event/Confli...Strip/57460762

sana8410

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Quote

But I would like to browse through some examples if possible of the sort of blatant disregard for ceasefires such as the recent Hamas disaster.

There are hundreds of them, what specifically would you like an example of?

Quote

This is just rhetoric. I suspect Israel would be willing to engage in peace talks with anyone that agrees that Israel actually exists.

Abbas has always recognized Israel's right to exist, that was granted by the Palestinian Authority before he even came into power, and it certainly hasn't made Israel any more willing to halt settlement expansion as per their past peace plan promises.

Quote

As long as Palestinians elect Hamas, it's kind of pointless to expect Israel to negotiate with people only negotiating in bad faith.

This is just rhetoric

zolace

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Quote from: sana8410 on August 15, 2014, 11:26:37 AM

Quote

3) is pretty straightforward. If a country agrees to a ceasefire with one party under specific terms, it doesn't affect other countries or other groups unless it's specifically part of the ceasefire.

Hamas has operatives in both locations as do most major Gazan factions. The ceasefire isn't with any sort of political state entity (it would be hard to argue that since Israel doesn't recognize one as existing) it is with the organizations in question.

I find the irony in you saying Israel doesn't recognize a state entity great, considering the position of Hamas. And you wonder why I say both sides are at fault equally?

sana8410

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Quote

3) is pretty straightforward. If a country agrees to a ceasefire with one party under specific terms, it doesn't affect other countries or other groups unless it's specifically part of the ceasefire.

Hamas has operatives in both locations as do most major Gazan factions. The ceasefire isn't with any sort of political state entity (it would be hard to argue that since Israel doesn't recognize one as existing) it is with the organizations in question.

Topic: Israel: Operation Protective Edge - page 10. (Read 14700 times)