Israel: Operation Protective Edge - page 14.

sana8410

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Quote from: noviapriani on August 14, 2014, 12:45:34 PM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 14, 2014, 12:12:15 PM

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In short: deliberately killing innocent civilians, even if they are being used as human shields, may very well still be a war crime if the military threat does not outweigh the threat to said human shields.

which seems like an enormous grey area. this doesn't really seem all that well defined, especially in the cases relevant to this conflict. thats what courts are there for, i suppose.

This is actually where the term proportional force comes into play. Do doubt that you have probably heard it thrown around (or disproportional use of force). These issues would fall under that category. If a gunman runs into a hospital full of innocent people and starts shooting a pistol at you is it appropriate to call in an airstrike and destroy the hospital? If the JEM start attacking government convoys in Darfur, is it appropriate to drop barrel bombs on Fur towns? Etc.

so, e.g., Israeli intelligence shows rockets being launched within 50 meters of a hospital where civilians are being housed. Israel has to (should) weigh the following things:

(1) the harm rockets being deployed has on their own interests (including civilian interests)
(2) the probability distribution with which their weaponry will hit and/or affect targets around the area.
(3) the risk/reward profile of each point in the domain of the probability distribution.

noviapriani

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In this case, the evidence would have to be reviewed, but even the presence of a weapons cache wouldn't make a UN school full of refugees a legitimate military target. The military value of the target relative to the risk to civilian life isn't justifiable from a legal standpoint. It is a little more subjective than other violations such as settlement expansion, but it can only really be pushed so far before it becomes a rather blatant violation.

Steigerz

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Quote from: kuroman on August 14, 2014, 11:40:32 AM

http://www.newstalk.ie/Shocking-video-of-Israeli-soldiers-who-celebrate-shooting-18-year-old

The most moral army in the world at it again.

Warfare against civilians must never be answered in kind. Terror must never be answered with terror. Caleb Carr

So relevant Sad

noviapriani

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Quote from: sana8410 on August 14, 2014, 12:12:15 PM

Quote

In short: deliberately killing innocent civilians, even if they are being used as human shields, may very well still be a war crime if the military threat does not outweigh the threat to said human shields.

which seems like an enormous grey area. this doesn't really seem all that well defined, especially in the cases relevant to this conflict. thats what courts are there for, i suppose.

This is actually where the term proportional force comes into play. Do doubt that you have probably heard it thrown around (or disproportional use of force). These issues would fall under that category. If a gunman runs into a hospital full of innocent people and starts shooting a pistol at you is it appropriate to call in an airstrike and destroy the hospital? If the JEM start attacking government convoys in Darfur, is it appropriate to drop barrel bombs on Fur towns? Etc.

sana8410

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Activity: 448

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Quote

In short: deliberately killing innocent civilians, even if they are being used as human shields, may very well still be a war crime if the military threat does not outweigh the threat to said human shields.

which seems like an enormous grey area. this doesn't really seem all that well defined, especially in the cases relevant to this conflict. thats what courts are there for, i suppose.

noviapriani

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Quote from: Rigon on August 14, 2014, 12:03:25 PM

Quote from: noviapriani on August 14, 2014, 11:55:08 AM

Quote from: Rigon on August 14, 2014, 10:57:18 AM

It's all horrific and total bullshit at the same time. The crisis will only end when the Jews are dead or forcibly removed from Israel. Creation of a Palestine state won't end persecution of the Jews nor stop attacks on Israel. Bowing to Hamas and stopping the blockade will do nothing but allow Hamas to build up their arsenal for bigger attacks.

Rinse, repeat.

Hamas' use of war crimes does not justify Israel's use of war crimes.
You don't have anything to support such claims. In order to compete in the last elections Hamas had to drop its call for the destruction of Israel and campaign on a two state solution. Plus, as we see in the West Bank, The Palestinian Authority can control violence and has. There is a reason why you don't see widescale rocket attacks coming out of the West Bank.

Never made the claim.

For the rest I really don't care any more. This will go on until Hamas has been thinned out and need to regroup and a truce will go on for a while until they decide to start back up again after they have had some more rockets snuck in. Attacks will continue regardless. Israel will continue to do their thing as well.

Or Israel could actually be a partner for peace and live up to their peace plan promises and thus marginalize Hamas politically to the point of making them irrelevant. But that will never happen since Netanyahu isn't interested in a two state solution at all and never has been.

Rigon

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Quote from: noviapriani on August 14, 2014, 11:55:08 AM

Quote from: Rigon on August 14, 2014, 10:57:18 AM

It's all horrific and total bullshit at the same time. The crisis will only end when the Jews are dead or forcibly removed from Israel. Creation of a Palestine state won't end persecution of the Jews nor stop attacks on Israel. Bowing to Hamas and stopping the blockade will do nothing but allow Hamas to build up their arsenal for bigger attacks.

Rinse, repeat.

Hamas' use of war crimes does not justify Israel's use of war crimes.
You don't have anything to support such claims. In order to compete in the last elections Hamas had to drop its call for the destruction of Israel and campaign on a two state solution. Plus, as we see in the West Bank, The Palestinian Authority can control violence and has. There is a reason why you don't see widescale rocket attacks coming out of the West Bank.

Never made the claim.

For the rest I really don't care any more. This will go on until Hamas has been thinned out and need to regroup and a truce will go on for a while until they decide to start back up again after they have had some more rockets snuck in. Attacks will continue regardless. Israel will continue to do their thing as well.

noviapriani

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Quote from: Rigon on August 14, 2014, 10:57:18 AM

It's all horrific and total bullshit at the same time. The crisis will only end when the Jews are dead or forcibly removed from Israel. Creation of a Palestine state won't end persecution of the Jews nor stop attacks on Israel. Bowing to Hamas and stopping the blockade will do nothing but allow Hamas to build up their arsenal for bigger attacks.

Rinse, repeat.

Hamas' use of war crimes does not justify Israel's use of war crimes.
You don't have anything to support such claims. In order to compete in the last elections Hamas had to drop its call for the destruction of Israel and campaign on a two state solution. Plus, as we see in the West Bank, The Palestinian Authority can control violence and has. There is a reason why you don't see widescale rocket attacks coming out of the West Bank.

noviapriani

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It only took a US invasion to do it, but hey, clear failure, right?

As someone who is supposed to be all about the outcome, I would assume that death would be nothing but a failure. Your example failed to maintain his position, thus he failed.

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It's under control. Yes. There are terror threats which emerge from it to impact Russia, but beyond that, it's pretty much been crushed.

Weekly violence is hardly "under control".

kuroman

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http://www.newstalk.ie/Shocking-video-of-Israeli-soldiers-who-celebrate-shooting-18-year-old

The most moral army in the world at it again.

noviapriani

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Yes. Libya was stopped by France and Sudan by the USA. Not the best of examples since Sudan is also conventionally weak compared to the Israelis.

1.) Libya wasn't stopped by France, France held them off for a while but they were fine to let him have northern Chad and to have western Darfur. France was fairly cozy with Gaddafi, they wanted his oil.

2.) The US didn't stop anything in Sudan. In fact, Sudan remains one of the largest active conflict zones in the world, and Bashir's policies haven't helped him come out on top.

3.) It's interesting how you seem to think that when foreign intervention is involved then the examples shouldn't count. Unfortunately for you and your theories, that's not the way that the world works.

Alphi

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Quote from: noviapriani on August 14, 2014, 11:28:28 AM

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Russia in Chechnya was able to use thermobaric bombs on civilian targets, shoot civilians into mass graves, and use home demolitions without any serious international repercussions.

And the Caucasus remain unstable to this day, and likewise the russian government is nowhere near able to exert as much influence in the region as the Untied States government is able to exert on every part of its country.

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Saddam gassed the Kurds without any serious reactions either, so you don't necessarily need a nuclear arsenal to stop international repercussions.

You're forgetting that we used the gassing of the Kurds as justification to damage his regime from afar and then used it in part to drum up support to kill him (which we did). Once again, you seem to be living in a fantasy world where there are no internal or external reactions to mass abuses.

I agree... saying Russia is not criticized for helping people who commit war crimes is complete nonsense.
just look at how many countries are applying sanctions against Russia for helping rebels in Ukraine.. rebels that shot a civilian passenger plane out of the sky and killed 280 innocent people.

sanctions are far stronger than just critical words on social media.

if only they applied the same standard to Isreal and called for sanctions there.

noviapriani

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Russia in Chechnya was able to use thermobaric bombs on civilian targets, shoot civilians into mass graves, and use home demolitions without any serious international repercussions.

And the Caucasus remain unstable to this day, and likewise the russian government is nowhere near able to exert as much influence in the region as the Untied States government is able to exert on every part of its country.

Quote

Saddam gassed the Kurds without any serious reactions either, so you don't necessarily need a nuclear arsenal to stop international repercussions.

You're forgetting that we used the gassing of the Kurds as justification to damage his regime from afar and then used it in part to drum up support to kill him (which we did). Once again, you seem to be living in a fantasy world where there are no internal or external reactions to mass abuses.

Alphi

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 14, 2014, 11:11:02 AM

Quote from: Alphi on August 14, 2014, 10:58:51 AM

Isreal has to adopt a pluralist secular democracy which gives full rights to all people who are born and live on that land.

That will never happen. Because since the Arab birth rate is very high, the Jewish character of Israel will be lost within a few decades. So IMO, the choices are:

1. Two state solution (Israeli citizenship for Jews, Palestinian for Arabs)
2. One state solution (Arabs migrate to Jordan and receive Jordanian citizenship)
3. Status Quo.

yes america had the same mindset for a few hundred years..
"lets not give black people and latinos the vote or they might out breed us and then take over the country".
now look what happened... you have a "black" guy running the country...

is it really such a horrible thing?
of course not .. times change and attitudes change.

there are predictions that by 2050 the majority of the USA will be brown (or beige)... not because the Latinos or African Americans are out breeding the whites.. but because people just don't care about race as much as they used to so they are mixing it up..

the only people who are really worried about the USA turning brown are a few old white men and white supremacist groups...
everyone else is too busy looking in the mirror at their nice tans.

if Isreal wants to enjoy the kind of peace that most western democracies have.. they (all of them, regardless of religion or color) need to start adopting the western liberal pluralist mindset.

the bottom line is.. if you are worried about your Jewishness or your Whiteness or your Blackness being lost.. then you my friend are a racist. (not you personally but anyone who thinks that way)

noviapriani

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So is Hamas too incompetent to stop the rockets, or does it just not care?

Is Russia too incompetent to prevent a thousand Chechens from streaming into Syria to wage Jihad or does it just not care? Should we blame Russia for the activities of Chechens in Ukraine too?

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The Rwandans also have nowhere near enough power to really control the Congo in the same way the Israelis could deal with Gaza.

To the same extent as Israel in Gaza? No, but they had a large professional and well experienced army.

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The Assad administration is winning, and was essentially forced to use those tactics anyway since he had no realistic alternative except surrender.

Interesting how you had to ignore the Sudan and Iraq examples.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: Alphi on August 14, 2014, 10:58:51 AM

Isreal has to adopt a pluralist secular democracy which gives full rights to all people who are born and live on that land.

That will never happen. Because since the Arab birth rate is very high, the Jewish character of Israel will be lost within a few decades. So IMO, the choices are:

1. Two state solution (Israeli citizenship for Jews, Palestinian for Arabs)
2. One state solution (Arabs migrate to Jordan and receive Jordanian citizenship)
3. Status Quo.

kuroman

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Quote from: Rigon on August 14, 2014, 10:57:18 AM

It's all horrific and total bullshit at the same time. The crisis will only end when the Jews are dead or forcibly removed from Israel. Creation of a Palestine state won't end persecution of the Jews nor stop attacks on Israel. Bowing to Hamas and stopping the blockade will do nothing but allow Hamas to build up their arsenal for bigger attacks.

Rinse, repeat.

Again this is not about Jews, Jews lived in the region and in other countries region under the Islam rule for centuries without any major issues, The problems started when the Zionist plan kicked in, and the horrible things they did, being to local population but also to Jews living outside of Israel or what was soon to be Israel at the time, by doing terrorist attacks and blowing Jew cemeteries and synagogues to push people to immigrate (this is a fact you can search it if you want) .

This fight will end, when Israelis stop colonizing Palestinians, I repeated this many times, It was Israel that started this whole event (and I don't mind listing the choronology of the events once again with factual references), because it was annoyed by the Palestinian Unity government (under US and EU conditions and blessing after it was made), that would force Israel to the negotiation table.

I don't know how can people can blame Hamas (or at least mainly exclusively), while it was Israel that started this whole massacre and still killing hundreds that are mostly civilians.

noviapriani

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We did? The only collective punishment I can recall in the Congo was Mobutu's alliance with the Hutu groups, along with stoking inter-ethnic conflict against the Banyamulenge Tutsis as a play to preserve his power. That backfired horribly when the Banyamulenge aligned with Rwanda and formed the basis of the force that tossed Mobutu out. In any case, it's a really bad example since a lot of the "collective punishment" in the Eastern Congo is just random violence by militias.

Then you don't remember the DR Congo conflict very well. All sides engaged in such tactics, including the professional armies of Mobutu himself, and the armies of Rwanda, Uganda, and Burundi, along with their direct proxies, and I can assure you that a lot of the violence from them wasn't simply "random violence" but was very targeted along ethnic lines.

Alphi

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Quote from: Rigon on August 14, 2014, 10:57:18 AM

It's all horrific and total bullshit at the same time. Creation of a Palestine state won't end persecution of the Jews nor stop attacks on Israel. Bowing to Hamas and stopping the blockade will do nothing but allow Hamas to build up their arsenal for bigger attacks.

Rinse, repeat.

surprisingly most people would agree with you, except for the part about Jews having to die or leave.. that's just nonsense.. but that is why the Zionist dream has to die and Isreal has to adopt a pluralist secular democracy which gives full rights to all people who are born and live on that land. They cant keep carving up Palestinian land and giving it to paid Jewish settlers.. and the Palestinians cant keep living like dogs on their own land only to jump the fence and bite the neighbors every few years.

Rigon

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It's all horrific and total bullshit at the same time. The crisis will only end when the Jews are dead or forcibly removed from Israel. Creation of a Palestine state won't end persecution of the Jews nor stop attacks on Israel. Bowing to Hamas and stopping the blockade will do nothing but allow Hamas to build up their arsenal for bigger attacks.

Rinse, repeat.

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