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Topic: Israel: Operation Protective Edge - page 29. (Read 14685 times)

sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
July 18, 2014, 12:25:19 PM
#71
Quote
It is largely Jihadi Salafi groups firing the rockets, groups that are actually opposed to Hamas, which is why it is easier to recognize the overzealous targeting of Hamas in the campaign. the same was true of their search for and accusations surrounding the missing students which third party groups claimed responsibility for, but which Netanyahu took the opportunity to blame on Hamas instead and used it as a justification to illegally harass and target Hamas affiliates.
Easy. Because these Salafist groups are operating because of either the incompetence of Hamas, or their weakness, and because of the acquiescence or support of the civilian population.
Collective responsibility merits collective punishment. Gaza's population supported Hamas, and acquiesces to, if not outright supports the Salafists. It makes absolute sense to hold them collectively responsible for allowing terrorists to operate amongst them.

There's never been a good example of an occupying force succeeding with a population-centric counter insurgency strategy. The most successful examples of crushing insurgencies, like Sri Lanka, involved a willingness to use violence and force to achieve victory.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
July 18, 2014, 12:23:15 PM
#70
Israel has responded to aggression with aggression for almost eight decades. Prior to that unofficial policy of reciprocal violence, Jewish extremists deliberately terrorized and murdered many within the British Empire which precipitated the foundation for the current Israel state. Illegitimate as it is, even for a highly organized and educated sovereignty, Israelis are appallingly incapable of accomplishing peaceful resolutions.

Unfortunately, the United States validates Israel's existence simply as an insurance policy against Islamic states attempting to transition to nuclear power, Hezbollah, and Russian interests in the vicinity.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
July 18, 2014, 11:47:37 AM
#69
Hamas is more than just an armed brigade it consists of political and civil service wings as well and targeted people specifically for their political affiliation is a war crime as well. Anything associated with Hamas isn't militarily fair game. There is no military benefits to bombing empty homes of civilian infrastructure.
It is not the same because Israelis are not welcoming people to use their homes as launch sites or bases of operation.One you do that, your home is not a home it is military complex and should be dealt with as a military target.Israel, the United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan to name a few all classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. It should be treated as a terrorist organization.
Civilians are civilians, just because Israel has compulsory military duty for many of its citizens doesn't open those citizens up to being targeted with violence when they aren't actively serving. That isn't a good excuse for Hamas and it isn't a good excuse for Israel. And yet it is still a recognized war crime to bomb a Hamas soup kitchen .
There is a difference between an service member sitting peacefully in his home with his wife and kids, watching the sunday game and having cookouts in the backyard VS someone who has his family sit around kitchen table and help load and plan the next rocket firing.

One is civilian and the other is a military target.
Let me know when you have evidence that everyone in Gaza is secretly an armed revolutionary that engages in terrorist activities.
Let me know when you have evidence that every home in Gaza is loaded with weapons and bombs.
Most aren't. I understand that. Most Gazans want peace. But it becomes harder to achieve peace when Hamas is continually committing war crimes by launching attacks from civilian population areas and then hiding behind civilians for cover.
I agree. It also makes it harder when Israel engages in war crimes and violations of the Fourth Geneva Conventions as well. It would also help if Netanyahu was willing to halt settlement expansion at all.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
July 18, 2014, 11:27:17 AM
#68
Hamas is more than just an armed brigade it consists of political and civil service wings as well and targeted people specifically for their political affiliation is a war crime as well. Anything associated with Hamas isn't militarily fair game. There is no military benefits to bombing empty homes of civilian infrastructure.
It is not the same because Israelis are not welcoming people to use their homes as launch sites or bases of operation.One you do that, your home is not a home it is military complex and should be dealt with as a military target.Israel, the United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan to name a few all classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. It should be treated as a terrorist organization.
Civilians are civilians, just because Israel has compulsory military duty for many of its citizens doesn't open those citizens up to being targeted with violence when they aren't actively serving. That isn't a good excuse for Hamas and it isn't a good excuse for Israel. And yet it is still a recognized war crime to bomb a Hamas soup kitchen .
There is a difference between an service member sitting peacefully in his home with his wife and kids, watching the sunday game and having cookouts in the backyard VS someone who has his family sit around kitchen table and help load and plan the next rocket firing.

One is civilian and the other is a military target.
Let me know when you have evidence that everyone in Gaza is secretly an armed revolutionary that engages in terrorist activities.
Let me know when you have evidence that every home in Gaza is loaded with weapons and bombs.
Most aren't. I understand that. Most Gazans want peace. But it becomes harder to achieve peace when Hamas is continually committing war crimes by launching attacks from civilian population areas and then hiding behind civilians for cover.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
July 18, 2014, 11:24:48 AM
#67
I'd read it but it sounds like its long and i'm not THAT interested in the whole thing. whatever my opinion is, it has exactly zero effect on how the situation play out in the real world. all i can do is trust certain peoples opinions and what they say over others, and question things when they seem suspect.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
July 18, 2014, 11:13:49 AM
#66
We have seen such reports (which Israel generally refuses to partake in) such as the Goldstein Report from Operation Cast Lead.
Actually Goldstone went back on his report:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict#Goldstone.27s_retraction_of_civilian_targeting_claim

On 1 April 2011, Goldstone published a piece in The Washington Post titled 'Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes'. Goldstone noted that the subsequent investigations by Israel and recognized in the U.N. committee's report "indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy" while "the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying."

this shit is complicated and it seems hard to know whats true and whats not sometimes

important to add:
Hina Jilani, one of the four writers of the "Goldstone Report", noted when asked if the report should allegedly be changed: "Absolutely not; no process or acceptable procedure would invalidate the UN Report; if it does happen, it would be seen as a 'suspect move'." Also another of the four co-writers, Irish international criminal investigations expert Desmond Travers, noted: 'the tenor of the report in its entirety, in my opinion, stands'. Also Goldstone maintained that, although the one correction should be made, he had "no reason to believe any part of the report needs to be reconsidered at this time" and that he didn't plan to pursue nullifying the report.
I read it back when it first came out, I would encourage you to do the same, they were certainly limited in some areas due to the lack of Israeli cooperation, but they came to several definitive conclusions as well about some specific incidents / aspects of the operation. The fletchings and targeting of civilian infrastructure such as water dykes for example.
After reading this, I have to say again that Netanyahu should unilaterally withdraw settlers from the West Bank and then ask Abbas to cut all ties with Hamas. This is the best solution. It is better for both parties involved. I think it will give Israel the moral high ground when they are being fired upon from areas without settlers and it gives Abbas more moral standing when he no longer associates with Hamas.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
July 18, 2014, 11:11:09 AM
#65
We have seen such reports (which Israel generally refuses to partake in) such as the Goldstein Report from Operation Cast Lead.
Actually Goldstone went back on his report:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict#Goldstone.27s_retraction_of_civilian_targeting_claim

On 1 April 2011, Goldstone published a piece in The Washington Post titled 'Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes'. Goldstone noted that the subsequent investigations by Israel and recognized in the U.N. committee's report "indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy" while "the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying."

this shit is complicated and it seems hard to know whats true and whats not sometimes

important to add:
Hina Jilani, one of the four writers of the "Goldstone Report", noted when asked if the report should allegedly be changed: "Absolutely not; no process or acceptable procedure would invalidate the UN Report; if it does happen, it would be seen as a 'suspect move'." Also another of the four co-writers, Irish international criminal investigations expert Desmond Travers, noted: 'the tenor of the report in its entirety, in my opinion, stands'. Also Goldstone maintained that, although the one correction should be made, he had "no reason to believe any part of the report needs to be reconsidered at this time" and that he didn't plan to pursue nullifying the report.
I read it back when it first came out, I would encourage you to do the same, they were certainly limited in some areas due to the lack of Israeli cooperation, but they came to several definitive conclusions as well about some specific incidents / aspects of the operation. The fletchings and targeting of civilian infrastructure such as water dykes for example.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
July 18, 2014, 11:03:31 AM
#64
We have seen such reports (which Israel generally refuses to partake in) such as the Goldstein Report from Operation Cast Lead.
Actually Goldstone went back on his report:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict#Goldstone.27s_retraction_of_civilian_targeting_claim

On 1 April 2011, Goldstone published a piece in The Washington Post titled 'Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes'. Goldstone noted that the subsequent investigations by Israel and recognized in the U.N. committee's report "indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy" while "the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying."

this shit is complicated and it seems hard to know whats true and whats not sometimes

important to add:
Hina Jilani, one of the four writers of the "Goldstone Report", noted when asked if the report should allegedly be changed: "Absolutely not; no process or acceptable procedure would invalidate the UN Report; if it does happen, it would be seen as a 'suspect move'." Also another of the four co-writers, Irish international criminal investigations expert Desmond Travers, noted: 'the tenor of the report in its entirety, in my opinion, stands'. Also Goldstone maintained that, although the one correction should be made, he had "no reason to believe any part of the report needs to be reconsidered at this time" and that he didn't plan to pursue nullifying the report.
legendary
Activity: 3752
Merit: 1217
July 18, 2014, 09:52:48 AM
#63
That the majority of Palestinians there suffer from Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

The Hamas government in Gaza was democratically elected with overwhelming support (if I am not wrong, more than two-third of the population voted for Hamas). So you can't say that the Hamas is harassing the Gazans.
full member
Activity: 127
Merit: 100
July 18, 2014, 05:15:09 AM
#62


Israel can leave in peace with the Palestinians left Gaza on terrorism. That the majority of Palestinians there suffer from Hamas and Islamic Jihad. And because citizens do not know to stop them then there is no choice but to attack the State of Israel and weaken them. That terrorist groups constantly trying to harm the citizens of Israel. Think how it is to live every day you hear alarms that can hurt you. I say again living areas of the civilians in Gaza it is because terrorist organizations!, And talk about war crimes must be remembered that each started because Hamas kidnapped three boys of 16 and killed them, and from that moment began the war. So who committed war crimes?



sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
July 17, 2014, 02:15:05 PM
#61
We have seen such reports (which Israel generally refuses to partake in) such as the Goldstein Report from Operation Cast Lead.
Actually Goldstone went back on his report:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict#Goldstone.27s_retraction_of_civilian_targeting_claim

On 1 April 2011, Goldstone published a piece in The Washington Post titled 'Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes'. Goldstone noted that the subsequent investigations by Israel and recognized in the U.N. committee's report "indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy" while "the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying."
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
July 17, 2014, 02:08:33 PM
#60
We have seen such reports (which Israel generally refuses to partake in) such as the Goldstein Report from Operation Cast Lead.

It is also the administration's job to provide supporting evidence that the targets that it is choosing are of military value (when questioned). If they can't do that, then they shouldn't be bombing civilian targets. Yet, Israeli administrations tend not to cooperate with such fact finding missions.
probably because nothing happens when they don't. also do you mean goldstone? if not link to info about goldstein report?
Right. They are protected in the Security Council by the U.S. and have support in the EU through Germany. Hahaha. Yes, Goldstone Report, thank you. I'm currently doing some work for a company with Einstein in its title and have been typing it constantly.
Goldstone is a judge from South Africa who was put in charge of the fact finding mission.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
July 17, 2014, 02:04:01 PM
#59
We have seen such reports (which Israel generally refuses to partake in) such as the Goldstein Report from Operation Cast Lead.

It is also the administration's job to provide supporting evidence that the targets that it is choosing are of military value (when questioned). If they can't do that, then they shouldn't be bombing civilian targets. Yet, Israeli administrations tend not to cooperate with such fact finding missions.
probably because nothing happens when they don't. also do you mean goldstone? if not link to info about goldstein report?
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
July 17, 2014, 02:01:56 PM
#58
We have seen such reports (which Israel generally refuses to partake in) such as the Goldstein Report from Operation Cast Lead.

It is also the administration's job to provide supporting evidence that the targets that it is choosing are of military value (when questioned). If they can't do that, then they shouldn't be bombing civilian targets. Yet, Israeli administrations tend not to cooperate with such fact finding missions.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
July 17, 2014, 01:59:52 PM
#57
Hamas is more than just an armed brigade it consists of political and civil service wings as well and targeted people specifically for their political affiliation is a war crime as well. Anything associated with Hamas isn't militarily fair game. There is no military benefits to bombing empty homes of civilian infrastructure.
It is not the same because Israelis are not welcoming people to use their homes as launch sites or bases of operation.One you do that, your home is not a home it is military complex and should be dealt with as a military target.Israel, the United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan to name a few all classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. It should be treated as a terrorist organization.
Civilians are civilians, just because Israel has compulsory military duty for many of its citizens doesn't open those citizens up to being targeted with violence when they aren't actively serving. That isn't a good excuse for Hamas and it isn't a good excuse for Israel. And yet it is still a recognized war crime to bomb a Hamas soup kitchen .
There is a difference between an service member sitting peacefully in his home with his wife and kids, watching the sunday game and having cookouts in the backyard VS someone who has his family sit around kitchen table and help load and plan the next rocket firing.

One is civilian and the other is a military target.
Let me know when you have evidence that everyone in Gaza is secretly an armed revolutionary that engages in terrorist activities.
Let me know when you have evidence that every home in Gaza is loaded with weapons and bombs.
Well, that's complicated right? if the accusation is that israel is partaking in war crimes or crimes against humanity then actually the burden of proof goes in the other direction.

In the same way, when israel accuses hamas of a war crime or crime against humanity, they should have evidence, otherwise its just a baseless accusation. ........oh yea i remember them in 2006.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1001
July 17, 2014, 01:56:46 PM
#56
I would suggest most people in first world countries have a problem with the concept of collective punishment. I certainly do. Israel has no blame here. They have a right to exist, and be where they are at. The Palestinians choose war over peace.
This.

Gaza had fired over 150+ rockets into Israel for over the course of a month. Israel did something that surprised and disappointed me. They didn't shoot back.

I applaud them for trying to keep peaceful. But I do not like the idea of ignoring a bully. If someone keeps pushing you, you should stand up and push back. Yet Israel sat on their hands.

This conflict should have happen sooner. It could have been avoided, but it wasn't and so it should have happen sooner.

Lol and how many Israelis were killed from all those rockets?

All you have to do is look at the numbers to see how delusional Israeli apologists and zionists are.

246 to 1 in the most recent offensive including a sickening direct attack at children. Disgusting excuses for human beings
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
July 17, 2014, 01:55:15 PM
#55
Hamas is more than just an armed brigade it consists of political and civil service wings as well and targeted people specifically for their political affiliation is a war crime as well. Anything associated with Hamas isn't militarily fair game. There is no military benefits to bombing empty homes of civilian infrastructure.
It is not the same because Israelis are not welcoming people to use their homes as launch sites or bases of operation.One you do that, your home is not a home it is military complex and should be dealt with as a military target.Israel, the United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan to name a few all classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. It should be treated as a terrorist organization.
Civilians are civilians, just because Israel has compulsory military duty for many of its citizens doesn't open those citizens up to being targeted with violence when they aren't actively serving. That isn't a good excuse for Hamas and it isn't a good excuse for Israel. And yet it is still a recognized war crime to bomb a Hamas soup kitchen .
There is a difference between an service member sitting peacefully in his home with his wife and kids, watching the sunday game and having cookouts in the backyard VS someone who has his family sit around kitchen table and help load and plan the next rocket firing.

One is civilian and the other is a military target.
Let me know when you have evidence that everyone in Gaza is secretly an armed revolutionary that engages in terrorist activities.
Let me know when you have evidence that every home in Gaza is loaded with weapons and bombs.
To be fair, you haven't provided any evidence to anything you have claimed either.
And news report aren't evidence, they are one sided propaganda almost all of the times.

And to add to what he said (and somewhat answer you) Israel does not attack whatever target, they target housing, buildings and w/e facilities that their intel marked as a hiding spot for weapons and/or terrorists. Whether or not their intel is accurate is irrelevant, since their intent isn't to harm innocent people (unlike hamas, which actions you seem to be approving of by pushing them to the sidelines).
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
July 17, 2014, 01:51:50 PM
#54
Quote
And yet it is still a recognized war crime to bomb a Hamas soup kitchen.
Does not apply if the soup kitchen is filled with bombs and not food (or food with bombs). Still makes it a military target.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
July 17, 2014, 01:48:00 PM
#53
Hamas is more than just an armed brigade it consists of political and civil service wings as well and targeted people specifically for their political affiliation is a war crime as well. Anything associated with Hamas isn't militarily fair game. There is no military benefits to bombing empty homes of civilian infrastructure.
It is not the same because Israelis are not welcoming people to use their homes as launch sites or bases of operation.One you do that, your home is not a home it is military complex and should be dealt with as a military target.Israel, the United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan to name a few all classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. It should be treated as a terrorist organization.
Civilians are civilians, just because Israel has compulsory military duty for many of its citizens doesn't open those citizens up to being targeted with violence when they aren't actively serving. That isn't a good excuse for Hamas and it isn't a good excuse for Israel. And yet it is still a recognized war crime to bomb a Hamas soup kitchen .
There is a difference between an service member sitting peacefully in his home with his wife and kids, watching the sunday game and having cookouts in the backyard VS someone who has his family sit around kitchen table and help load and plan the next rocket firing.

One is civilian and the other is a military target.
Let me know when you have evidence that everyone in Gaza is secretly an armed revolutionary that engages in terrorist activities.
Let me know when you have evidence that every home in Gaza is loaded with weapons and bombs.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
July 17, 2014, 01:41:44 PM
#52
Hamas is more than just an armed brigade it consists of political and civil service wings as well and targeted people specifically for their political affiliation is a war crime as well. Anything associated with Hamas isn't militarily fair game. There is no military benefits to bombing empty homes of civilian infrastructure.
It is not the same because Israelis are not welcoming people to use their homes as launch sites or bases of operation.One you do that, your home is not a home it is military complex and should be dealt with as a military target.Israel, the United States, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt and Japan to name a few all classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. It should be treated as a terrorist organization.
Civilians are civilians, just because Israel has compulsory military duty for many of its citizens doesn't open those citizens up to being targeted with violence when they aren't actively serving. That isn't a good excuse for Hamas and it isn't a good excuse for Israel. And yet it is still a recognized war crime to bomb a Hamas soup kitchen .
There is a difference between an service member sitting peacefully in his home with his wife and kids, watching the sunday game and having cookouts in the backyard VS someone who has his family sit around kitchen table and help load and plan the next rocket firing.

One is civilian and the other is a military target.
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