Topic: Israel: Operation Protective Edge - page 23. (Read 14685 times)
so one conceptual thing i don't totally understand. if israel in some sense stole the lands from the palestinians, didn't the palestinians steal the land from the romans, who stole the land from the greeks, who stole the land from the persians, who stole the land from the babylonians, who stole the land from the assyrians, who stole the land from the jews? i don't understand why the "right" to the land started arbitrarily at one point in time (so the argument seems to me to go).
Shelling kills four boys on Gaza beach; Israel, Hamas set five-hour truce
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...source=twitter Part of me wanted to think the violation of the cease fire was done by outliers to stoke the fire..but 100+ rockets...come on. They kind of asked for it.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...source=twitter Part of me wanted to think the violation of the cease fire was done by outliers to stoke the fire..but 100+ rockets...come on. They kind of asked for it.
Israel does everything in their power to only strike militant targets, while Hamas does everything in their power to strike civilian targets. Hamas is committing a double war crime by hiding behind civilians and attacking civilians.
That's absolutely not true. In fact there is well documented UN evidence to the contrary. Hamas use of rocket attacks against Israel is a war crime absolutely. But that doesn't change anything discussed in this thread.
Israel does everything in their power to only strike militant targets, while Hamas does everything in their power to strike civilian targets. Hamas is committing a double war crime by hiding behind civilians and attacking civilians.
Hamas has rejected the ceasefire. Israel stopped its attacks in Gaza for six hours while Hamas continued to fire rockets.
The ceasefire called for a halt to hostilities after 12 hours. Hamas was/is still considering it. The Al Qassam Brigade openly rejected it, but in the end it is the political wing that tends to get its way. Either way, like I said, a ceasefire won't really last long / do much unless Israel releases the people it arbitrarily detained and unless it is willing to significantly ease the blockade. Neither of which this ceasefire really does.
Hamas has rejected the ceasefire. Israel stopped its attacks in Gaza for six hours while Hamas continued to fire rockets.
The ceasefire called for a halt to hostilities after 12 hours. Hamas was/is still considering it. The Al Qassam Brigade openly rejected it, but in the end it is the political wing that tends to get its way. Either way, like I said, a ceasefire won't really last long / do much unless Israel releases the people it arbitrarily detained and unless it is willing to significantly ease the blockade. Neither of which this ceasefire really does.Hamas has rejected the ceasefire. Israel stopped its attacks in Gaza for six hours while Hamas continued to fire rockets.
The ceasefire called for a halt to hostilities after 12 hours. Hamas was/is still considering it. The Al Qassam Brigade openly rejected it, but in the end it is the political wing that tends to get its way. Either way, like I said, a ceasefire won't really last long / do much unless Israel releases the people it arbitrarily detained and unless it is willing to significantly ease the blockade. Neither of which this ceasefire really does.Hamas has rejected the ceasefire. Israel stopped its attacks in Gaza for six hours while Hamas continued to fire rockets.
The ceasefire called for a halt to hostilities after 12 hours. Hamas was/is still considering it. The Al Qassam Brigade openly rejected it, but in the end it is the political wing that tends to get its way. Either way, like I said, a ceasefire won't really last long / do much unless Israel releases the people it arbitrarily detained and unless it is willing to significantly ease the blockade. Neither of which this ceasefire really does.Hamas has rejected the ceasefire. Israel stopped its attacks in Gaza for six hours while Hamas continued to fire rockets.
The ceasefire called for a halt to hostilities after 12 hours. Hamas was/is still considering it. The Al Qassam Brigade openly rejected it, but in the end it is the political wing that tends to get its way. Either way, like I said, a ceasefire won't really last long / do much unless Israel releases the people it arbitrarily detained and unless it is willing to significantly ease the blockade. Neither of which this ceasefire really does.
Hamas has rejected the ceasefire. Israel stopped its attacks in Gaza for six hours while Hamas continued to fire rockets.
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while any deviation from he status quo is a level of security that is unknown, and potentially much worse (especially given the state of affairs in the larger middle east).
3.) That isn't really true. We do have a more known visual of that in the West Bank under the Palestinian Authority and Abbas.4.) By maintaining the status quo (which is expansion into occupied territories and increasingly worse political and economic rights perspectives for Palestinians) Israel only empowers Hamas. The Hamas political wing has been less thrilled about the current fighting, but the Qassam Brigade is certainly up in arms about it. It is good PR for them and the longer that Israel keeps the occupation the stronger Hamas can become and the weaker that peaceful factions like Abbas become (who are increasingly seen as passive in the face of Israeli abuses at best and downright Israeli puppets at worse).
5.) The above realities means that the status quo is unsustainable in the area of security. However you think meaningful peace talks will effect security, I can guarantee you that security will worsen in the long run if the West Bank breaks down into a Third Intifada. And that's another thing, we know exactly what will happen security wise if things don't improve. We already saw that outcome in the Second Intifada.
6.)It isn't just about security from Palestinians, but security issues when it comes to addressing global jihadism and terrorism as well. The conflict not only decreases security for Israel, but also for Western Europe and the US as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the primary PR and propaganda tools used within Jihadi circles to justify mass attacks against the west and to stir up anti-western fervor.
It looks like Egypt may broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
It's unlikely to last long. Not unless Israel releases the hundreds of people it arbitrarily detained in the West Bank roundup it engaged in when looking for the missing students, and unless it eases the blockade restrictions of Gaza considerably.I suppose I should also say unless Egypt eases up a bit on material transfers into Gaza as well. Egypt played its part in the decay of the 2012 ceasefire too.
Israel, Egypt, and the Palestinians all need to do their part.
Israel should increase its contact with the Arab League in order to find a more just and peaceful solution to the conflict.
Not Just Israel, Egypt, and the Palestinians
everyone has to do their part.
even if it is speaking out... educating yourself on whats really going on.. passive resistance... or even refraining from rhetoric.
public opinion has for a very long time been against the indiscriminate violent actions of Hamas.
public opinion is now turning against the oppressive actions of the Israeli government.
just like as south Africa lashed out against its minorities during the dying days of the apartheid regime.
the zionist and the various militant islamic regimes are also weakening significantly.
hamas will not be able to continue collecting rockets and violently resisting for another 7 years and israel will not be able pay for their extremely expensive high tech weapons of war for the next 7 years.
they are both lashing out in a last ditch attempt to swey world opinion so they can get much needed military and financial support.
but after nearly 1 and half decades of conflict in the middle east the various powers backing both sides of the Isreal/Palestine conflict are extremely war fatigued and will not be willing nor able to keep funding more military campaigns.
Having taken the time to educate myself on this issue a little deeper. I am now convinced that its only a matter of time before a revolution, like that of south africa, will take over.
the settlers wont like it , hamas wont like it... but it will lead to a better situation for everyone.
It has more to do with power groupings and how coalitions have to be formed within Israel and the desire to simply occupy the land regardless of the security challenges that doing so creates. All the proof one needs is Israel's continued refusal to halt settlement expansion despite the fact that the Michell Report clearly indicated it as one of the single largest contributing factors to instability that led to the Second Intifada. (that's also why Bush's Road Map for Peace plan had Israel halting settlement expansion as its first phase of a peace process).
"Security" concerns are an obfuscation tactic that has long been used by Israeli administrations to divert attention away from other relevant issues and as an excuse to act militarily during times in which they are losing ground diplomatically.
I don't understand what you mean. As far as israel is concerned, the status quo is a level of security that they know and they can tolerate. while any deviation from he status quo is a level of security that is unknown, and potentially much worse (especially given the state of affairs in the larger middle east). any actions taken towards a two state solution are not guarantees of a lasting peace (as far as israel is concerned), they are just movements away from the status quo. could the most well-meaning palestinian government guarantee peace? is it worth it for israel to find out?"Security" concerns are an obfuscation tactic that has long been used by Israeli administrations to divert attention away from other relevant issues and as an excuse to act militarily during times in which they are losing ground diplomatically.
obviously a guaranteed peace would be wonderful. but you can't really guarantee that kind of thing in this situation.
in the end the palestinians will get what they want, because this is ridiculously unsustainable. but it won't be for a while and a lot of people will die first. just the way it is.
1.) According to Israel they can't tolerate it, which is fine, I wouldn't tolerate rocket attacks on my citizens either.
2.) Your argument I think rests on the premise that the situation is stable and unlikely to change for the worse (in terms of security). I would strongly disagree with that as Salafi Jihadi groups grow in strength in the area (particularly in the Sinai and Gaza).
It has more to do with power groupings and how coalitions have to be formed within Israel and the desire to simply occupy the land regardless of the security challenges that doing so creates. All the proof one needs is Israel's continued refusal to halt settlement expansion despite the fact that the Michell Report clearly indicated it as one of the single largest contributing factors to instability that led to the Second Intifada. (that's also why Bush's Road Map for Peace plan had Israel halting settlement expansion as its first phase of a peace process).
"Security" concerns are an obfuscation tactic that has long been used by Israeli administrations to divert attention away from other relevant issues and as an excuse to act militarily during times in which they are losing ground diplomatically.
I don't understand what you mean. As far as israel is concerned, the status quo is a level of security that they know and they can tolerate. while any deviation from he status quo is a level of security that is unknown, and potentially much worse (especially given the state of affairs in the larger middle east). any actions taken towards a two state solution are not guarantees of a lasting peace (as far as israel is concerned), they are just movements away from the status quo. could the most well-meaning palestinian government guarantee peace? is it worth it for israel to find out?"Security" concerns are an obfuscation tactic that has long been used by Israeli administrations to divert attention away from other relevant issues and as an excuse to act militarily during times in which they are losing ground diplomatically.
obviously a guaranteed peace would be wonderful. but you can't really guarantee that kind of thing in this situation.
in the end the palestinians will get what they want, because this is ridiculously unsustainable. but it won't be for a while and a lot of people will die first. just the way it is.
Can't really say this is a proportionate response to Hamas' homemade missiles.
Proportionate or not, Hamas should have never poked Israel. You never poke a sleeping bear. In case you do so, then later you should not complain that the bear bit you.
(Ask the Georgians about their 2008 war against Russia. They'll explain. Or ask the Chinese about their adventure in 1969).
Have Arab league an interest to end this conflict ? 
It looks like Egypt may broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
It's unlikely to last long. Not unless Israel releases the hundreds of people it arbitrarily detained in the West Bank roundup it engaged in when looking for the missing students, and unless it eases the blockade restrictions of Gaza considerably.I suppose I should also say unless Egypt eases up a bit on material transfers into Gaza as well. Egypt played its part in the decay of the 2012 ceasefire too.
Israel, Egypt, and the Palestinians all need to do their part.
Israel should increase its contact with the Arab League in order to find a more just and peaceful solution to the conflict.
It looks like Egypt may broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
It's unlikely to last long. Not unless Israel releases the hundreds of people it arbitrarily detained in the West Bank roundup it engaged in when looking for the missing students, and unless it eases the blockade restrictions of Gaza considerably.I suppose I should also say unless Egypt eases up a bit on material transfers into Gaza as well. Egypt played its part in the decay of the 2012 ceasefire too.
Israel, Egypt, and the Palestinians all need to do their part.
Israel should increase its contact with the Arab League in order to find a more just and peaceful solution to the conflict.
It looks like Egypt may broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
It's unlikely to last long. Not unless Israel releases the hundreds of people it arbitrarily detained in the West Bank roundup it engaged in when looking for the missing students, and unless it eases the blockade restrictions of Gaza considerably.I suppose I should also say unless Egypt eases up a bit on material transfers into Gaza as well. Egypt played its part in the decay of the 2012 ceasefire too.
It looks like Egypt may broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
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