Topic: Its Official Pirate Has Defaulted!! - page 5. (Read 63518 times)

This is an excellent analysis. There is another wrinkle here. What if the debtor has publicly admitted to the manipulation of the market for the asset in which the debt was denominated?

Why hasn't this bet been decided yet? Seems pretty clear, no?

http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=433

The information posted about both the Bitcoinica guys and pirate was known long before anything ever went wrong.  People have been posting about pirate's identity and his connections to other businesses for months and the identity of the Intersango guys was never a secret.

Mail addresses and phone numbers mean nothing - in fact they can be used to convince people you're still in a particular location after you're long gone.  Even real physical addresses mean nothing, people can (and do) disappear overnight all the time over much smaller debts than are involved here.  How traceable people are depends on how much they really want to avoid being found and how well they've planned in advance.

This has nothing to do with "the power of Bitcoin".  Playing internet detective and doxxing people is a favourite hobby of many online communities.

switching off internet is useless, if their is mail address & phone numbers.

You can hide, shut off your internet

pirate40 default & Bitcoinica scam proved one thing.
that thing actually helps Bitcoin a lot.

In both scam, they can cleverly took a lot of bitcoiners money, but they cant able to hide.
The scamers are found out in less than 10 days, which normally wont happen in REAL world.

This proves the power of Bitcoin.
You can run, but you can't hide.

A man cannot..
 We cannot change our..
Destiny cannot a man..
Well, here in Texas a man's destiny... He cha...
Or does it change us?
huheehu

It would have saved us all a lot time and about a gazillion forum topics if people had done that sort of fixing on Pirate's original advertizements of his operations.
In fact... a lot of people DID do such fixings and warned others... but others didn't listen

But then again, we'd have also missed out on this awesome piece of bitcoin history.

Mybitcoin.com Savings and Trust 

Original



Fixing.....



Done.

that huge 1DkyBEK address is moving funds quicker to 'staging' areas.....

It's essentially up to the court if the parties themselves cannot reach an agreement.  No court is going to direct that "investors" be allowed to profit from criminal activity or that the proceeds of crime be used to compensate then, so if pirate's operations were illegal - as many suspect - investors could be SOL in trying to recover more than their original investment.

It's worth mentioning that people are now reporting payment problems with GPUMax as well.

I don't think would happen primarily because it's inequitable. That would allow anyone who had a debt denominated in something that could change in value to defer payment until sued and then make a profit from their default if the price dropped. Courts have inherent powers to avoid inequitable results and to avoid people who default from profiting from their default.

For example, say I put $50,000 worth of gold in someone's vault and pay them to keep it secure for me. If five years later it's worth $200,000, I don't think any court is going to allow them to default on returning my gold and pay me the $50,000 it was worth when I deposited it.

Legal tender laws don't specify the number of dollars that must be accepted to settle the debt. That's up to the contract.

exactly. I love the (snicker) bits. =)

Stephen got part of it right but got a huge part wrong.  He is right the interest won't survive in court; It is clearly usurious so that will be struck down quickly.  HE is also correct that courts will award damages in USD (legal tender).  That doesn't mean Pirate can pay the USD equivalent of when he borrowed.  He did borrow BTC (no different than borrowing gold, or say a stock). When paying in legal tender to satisfy a debt owed in other assets (gold, futures contracts, borrowed & shorted stock shares, BTC, etc) the courts would view anything other that repayment at current fair market value as insufficient to satisfy the debt.  Of course the debtor can accept a reduced payment but that is a different story.

So if I owe you 1 oz of gold I can satisfy that debt in dollars (even if you hate dollars).  This is often confusing to some people ("No you have to pay me in gold").  The reality is I can't be legally obligated to give you gold (more on why in the last paragraph), but I am obligated to pay a fair market value.  What is fair market value well that is open to interpretation but most likely the courts would see repayment at current spot price plus some margin to cover the replacement cost (coinage cost, shipping, etc) to be "fair".  I can't say "Here is one dollar.  It says good for all debts public and private so I no longer owe you that ounce of gold".

A more complex hypothetical example (item can't be replaced):
I borrow your motorcycle and total it.  Oops.  You sue me for loss of the vehicle.  The courts obviously can't make me return the totaled motorcycle back to you in the prior condition (i.e. rebuild it at the atomic level back into the pre-crash state).   The courts can't even make me give you another motorcycle.  The courts however can award DAMAGES for the VALUE of a motorcycle, and what form would those damages be expressed in?  Why legal tender of course.  So you bring in a bill of sale for a new replacement motorcycle and the bill of sale says $18,523.87 the courts could award you damages in that amount.  You could then use those funds to buy a new motorcycle or not.  The courts don't really care.  Courts only care about the VALUE of a loss and award damages based on the value.

How this would relate to Pirate:
First I don't think this is going to court but for the sake of the argument say a judge found that Pirate owed a plaintiff(s) x BTC.  A judge wouldn't award damages in BTC (it isn't legal tender).  Plus it creates all kind of difficulties the court doesn't really want to deal with.  Pirate "might" (snicker snicker) not have the BTC.   It might not be obtainable (maybe he owes more BTC than exist or are available for sale).  There may be technical or legal restrictions which prevent him from getting the BTC.  This is why in the US (and in US courts) the dollar is "good for all debts public & private".  A judge (hypothetically speaking) would award damages in USD based on the value of the compensatable loss.  As an example a judge could find Pirate owes 1,000 BTC and agree with the plaintiffs assertion that the current fair market value is currently ~$11 per BTC (no the judge isn't going to go tick by tick) and award $11,000.00 in damages, then levy a judgement for that amount against Pirate.

Now this doesn't mean all debt have to be settled in dollars.  If both parties agree to settle the $11,000.00 in BTC, LTC, gold doubloons, or even in metric tons of manure that is perfectly fine.  However if the parties can't reach an agreement as far as the courts is concerned the original terms, and assets, and contacts have been replaced with a $11,000.00 judgment in LEGAL TENDER.

One last wrinkle.  This means if for some reason (once again hypothetically and it is hard not to laugh when saying it) Pirate had ~$5M USD but didn't have the ~500K BTC.  He wouldn't have to buy the BTC.  He could pay your BTC debt in USD equivalent.  It actually would be smart to do so (no slippage or fees).   As long as he gave you a fair price (like spot price at time of repayment) creditors would have no recourse.  Why?  Your only (legal) recourse would be to sue him in court.  As discussed above even if you win the court is going to award damages in legal tender (USD).  

WHEW!

except this debt was not denominated in USD. *shrug IANAL and I suspect we are lacking any that are familiar in this area in our community here*

I don't know and I don't know.
Don't assume I wish the debt to be paid on government money, be it USD or EUR, in case I don't get my BTC back.
Now I'll leave it, because this is useless discussion. Pirate still haven't told me(or anyone else) he isn't paying.

This conversation should probably be split into Politics & Society; Moderators, feel free to do so.

The problem with your argument lies here: "At this point smaller dogs can be eliminated."

Eliminated how? "Completely unregulated market" does not mean "completely unregulated society." If the company uses violence to eliminate it's competition, even in an AnCap society, that will bring down retribution upon them.

Did he operate in your jurisdiction or did you send your funds (through the interwebs) to him in his?


If it wan't obvious, I am not a lawyer.  I was stretching to make that argument.  If that were treated that way, commodities and futures exchanges wouldn't exist, I presume.  But I tossed it out there, devil's advocate style.

Unfortunately what matters is that I was only saying to Stephen that I don't go around quoting the laws of my country when I want to say something, so, spare me the lecture, please.