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Topic: Jan 12th to Approx Jan 27th diff thread (3.5%) - page 4. (Read 5925 times)

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
I like to think that independent miners would keep running to secure the network but simple economics might keep that from happening. I see a possibility that large mining farms have so concentrated the mining power that if they were to all shut down one could switch on just long enough to do some damage. The concept of logical self interest isn't all encompassing and can't for tell every possible motivation for an attack.

I doubt that any hashrate drop will be so disruptive as to create any attack risk. Even if it drops by half you would still need a massive 150 PH/s to do a 51% and where would it come from?

I'm sure the network will be fine, diff drops, some miners switch off, perhaps exchange rate goes up a bit if coins are mined 10-20% slower until next adjustment, in other words it should be able to balance itself out.
I think he does make a valid point. As it stands right now (prior to the massive price drop) both bitmain and SP are having trouble selling their equipment, as evidenced by their massive discounts, group buys, expanding into reversible payment methods, ect.

The current selloff and any potential future selloff will only exaggerate this.

This will result in someone potentially being able to purchase a large amount of the network hashrate very cheaply with the possibility of being able to potentially attack the network. 

Yes, that scenario is exactly what I'm talking about. I worry less about an attack when the price is stable and profitable for miners. When it becomes unprofitable and dropping or stabilizes at an unprofitable price point that creates an opportunity to exploit the weakness of the network.

At some point in the future I expect businesses like BitPay to take over mining in a big way. When this happens the network will be more centralized between a few businesses but safer because their profit will really exist in their primary business model. Mining, for them, will only be a sidebar necessary to secure their business investment. They will have no incentive to do anything but keep the network safe. Today the network is unstable because it's controlled by large pools/farms that have no other method of funding the mining operation except the mining. When they switch-off then anyone with enough power can switch-on and ultimately control the network. It would only take a small window of opportunity to do this.
Services like bitpay probably should get into the mining business (if they are not already). Doing so would greatly reduce their risk of being the victim of double spend attacks and would allow them to even accept 0 fee transactions.

I would however make a counter point to your concern, that is similar to a recent argument as to why PoW is superior to PoS. If someone were to buy up a lot of mining equipment cheaply and were to attack the network then they would lose out on their investment on the mining equipment (this may not matter if it was cheap enough) but also on future mining revenue. As it stands now miners will only be able to make roughly 1% (it is probably closer to 0.75%) of the total revenue they would mine over the course of their useful life. This percentage is probably lower when the difficulty has recently taken a huge drop. I think it is fair to say that any major attack on the network would likely be discovered within 48 hours of it starting, so an attacker would potentially lose out on ~98% of their potential mining revenue by attacking the network (this assumes that an attack were to cause confidence in bitcoin to be wiped out and have it's value go to essentially zero).

What if they want the value to go to zero? The current thinking is one dimensional. There are more reasons to attack the network than just to double spend and profit is only one reason for action. A government, a competitor (Visa/MasterCard) or several of them working together could kill Bitcoin easly and spend almost nothing to do it. They wouldn't even need the resources they threw at Silk Road. If I were going to attempt to destroy Bitcoin I would use your mining equipment to do it. I would host mining equipment somewhere electricty is cheap then get people to ship me their equipment. I would run it honestly until the farm was a large percentage of the network and execute my plan. Miners switching off just speeds up that process.
full member
Activity: 147
Merit: 100
www.secondstrade.com - 190% return Binary option
I like to think that independent miners would keep running to secure the network but simple economics might keep that from happening. I see a possibility that large mining farms have so concentrated the mining power that if they were to all shut down one could switch on just long enough to do some damage. The concept of logical self interest isn't all encompassing and can't for tell every possible motivation for an attack.

I doubt that any hashrate drop will be so disruptive as to create any attack risk. Even if it drops by half you would still need a massive 150 PH/s to do a 51% and where would it come from?

I'm sure the network will be fine, diff drops, some miners switch off, perhaps exchange rate goes up a bit if coins are mined 10-20% slower until next adjustment, in other words it should be able to balance itself out.
I think he does make a valid point. As it stands right now (prior to the massive price drop) both bitmain and SP are having trouble selling their equipment, as evidenced by their massive discounts, group buys, expanding into reversible payment methods, ect.

The current selloff and any potential future selloff will only exaggerate this.

This will result in someone potentially being able to purchase a large amount of the network hashrate very cheaply with the possibility of being able to potentially attack the network. 

Yes, that scenario is exactly what I'm talking about. I worry less about an attack when the price is stable and profitable for miners. When it becomes unprofitable and dropping or stabilizes at an unprofitable price point that creates an opportunity to exploit the weakness of the network.

At some point in the future I expect businesses like BitPay to take over mining in a big way. When this happens the network will be more centralized between a few businesses but safer because their profit will really exist in their primary business model. Mining, for them, will only be a sidebar necessary to secure their business investment. They will have no incentive to do anything but keep the network safe. Today the network is unstable because it's controlled by large pools/farms that have no other method of funding the mining operation except the mining. When they switch-off then anyone with enough power can switch-on and ultimately control the network. It would only take a small window of opportunity to do this.
Services like bitpay probably should get into the mining business (if they are not already). Doing so would greatly reduce their risk of being the victim of double spend attacks and would allow them to even accept 0 fee transactions.

I would however make a counter point to your concern, that is similar to a recent argument as to why PoW is superior to PoS. If someone were to buy up a lot of mining equipment cheaply and were to attack the network then they would lose out on their investment on the mining equipment (this may not matter if it was cheap enough) but also on future mining revenue. As it stands now miners will only be able to make roughly 1% (it is probably closer to 0.75%) of the total revenue they would mine over the course of their useful life. This percentage is probably lower when the difficulty has recently taken a huge drop. I think it is fair to say that any major attack on the network would likely be discovered within 48 hours of it starting, so an attacker would potentially lose out on ~98% of their potential mining revenue by attacking the network (this assumes that an attack were to cause confidence in bitcoin to be wiped out and have it's value go to essentially zero).
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
I like to think that independent miners would keep running to secure the network but simple economics might keep that from happening. I see a possibility that large mining farms have so concentrated the mining power that if they were to all shut down one could switch on just long enough to do some damage. The concept of logical self interest isn't all encompassing and can't for tell every possible motivation for an attack.

I doubt that any hashrate drop will be so disruptive as to create any attack risk. Even if it drops by half you would still need a massive 150 PH/s to do a 51% and where would it come from?

I'm sure the network will be fine, diff drops, some miners switch off, perhaps exchange rate goes up a bit if coins are mined 10-20% slower until next adjustment, in other words it should be able to balance itself out.
I think he does make a valid point. As it stands right now (prior to the massive price drop) both bitmain and SP are having trouble selling their equipment, as evidenced by their massive discounts, group buys, expanding into reversible payment methods, ect.

The current selloff and any potential future selloff will only exaggerate this.

This will result in someone potentially being able to purchase a large amount of the network hashrate very cheaply with the possibility of being able to potentially attack the network. 

Yes, that scenario is exactly what I'm talking about. I worry less about an attack when the price is stable and profitable for miners. When it becomes unprofitable and dropping or stabilizes at an unprofitable price point that creates an opportunity to exploit the weakness of the network.

At some point in the future I expect businesses like BitPay to take over mining in a big way. When this happens the network will be more centralized between a few businesses but safer because their profit will really exist in their primary business model. Mining, for them, will only be a sidebar necessary to secure their business investment. They will have no incentive to do anything but keep the network safe. Today the network is unstable because it's controlled by large pools/farms that have no other method of funding the mining operation except the mining. When they switch-off then anyone with enough power can switch-on and ultimately control the network. It would only take a small window of opportunity to do this.
full member
Activity: 147
Merit: 100
www.secondstrade.com - 190% return Binary option
I like to think that independent miners would keep running to secure the network but simple economics might keep that from happening. I see a possibility that large mining farms have so concentrated the mining power that if they were to all shut down one could switch on just long enough to do some damage. The concept of logical self interest isn't all encompassing and can't for tell every possible motivation for an attack.

I doubt that any hashrate drop will be so disruptive as to create any attack risk. Even if it drops by half you would still need a massive 150 PH/s to do a 51% and where would it come from?

I'm sure the network will be fine, diff drops, some miners switch off, perhaps exchange rate goes up a bit if coins are mined 10-20% slower until next adjustment, in other words it should be able to balance itself out.
I think he does make a valid point. As it stands right now (prior to the massive price drop) both bitmain and SP are having trouble selling their equipment, as evidenced by their massive discounts, group buys, expanding into reversible payment methods, ect.

The current selloff and any potential future selloff will only exaggerate this.

This will result in someone potentially being able to purchase a large amount of the network hashrate very cheaply with the possibility of being able to potentially attack the network. 
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
I like to think that independent miners would keep running to secure the network but simple economics might keep that from happening. I see a possibility that large mining farms have so concentrated the mining power that if they were to all shut down one could switch on just long enough to do some damage. The concept of logical self interest isn't all encompassing and can't for tell every possible motivation for an attack.

I doubt that any hashrate drop will be so disruptive as to create any attack risk. Even if it drops by half you would still need a massive 150 PH/s to do a 51% and where would it come from?

I'm sure the network will be fine, diff drops, some miners switch off, perhaps exchange rate goes up a bit if coins are mined 10-20% slower until next adjustment, in other words it should be able to balance itself out.

Let's hope.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
I like to think that independent miners would keep running to secure the network but simple economics might keep that from happening. I see a possibility that large mining farms have so concentrated the mining power that if they were to all shut down one could switch on just long enough to do some damage. The concept of logical self interest isn't all encompassing and can't for tell every possible motivation for an attack.

I doubt that any hashrate drop will be so disruptive as to create any attack risk. Even if it drops by half you would still need a massive 150 PH/s to do a 51% and where would it come from?

I'm sure the network will be fine, diff drops, some miners switch off, perhaps exchange rate goes up a bit if coins are mined 10-20% slower until next adjustment, in other words it should be able to balance itself out.
full member
Activity: 147
Merit: 100
www.secondstrade.com - 190% return Binary option
I like to think that independent miners would keep running to secure the network but simple economics might keep that from happening. I see a possibility that large mining farms have so concentrated the mining power that if they were to all shut down one could switch on just long enough to do some damage. The concept of logical self interest isn't all encompassing and can't for tell every possible motivation for an attack.
The economics of home mining are not as cut and dry as the cost of electricity verses the value of the bitcoin mined.

I for example pay ~7.4 cents per KwH for electricity. My two S5s use roughly 1200 watts per hour. However since I am running them in my apartment I no longer need to have my heat on that uses roughly 2000 watts per hour. Granted I would not need my heat on 24 hours per day however this should be accounted for by the fact that the electric usage of the S5s is less then that of my heat. As a result I essentially have free electricity for my S5s while it is cold enough to need heat in my apartment.

It is obviously profitable for me to run my S5's now even if I was paying 7.4 cents per KwH, however next winter when this would likely no longer be the case, if I have not sold them (and have turned them off due to lack of my ability to run them profitably) then I would likely turn them back on for heat and to generate a small amount of bitcoin in the process.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
I like to think that independent miners would keep running to secure the network but simple economics might keep that from happening. I see a possibility that large mining farms have so concentrated the mining power that if they were to all shut down one could switch on just long enough to do some damage. The concept of logical self interest isn't all encompassing and can't for tell every possible motivation for an attack.
full member
Activity: 147
Merit: 100
www.secondstrade.com - 190% return Binary option
Thank you both for the answers. I'm kind of worried about the possibility that miners will hang on for several months until the possibility of profiting is way out the window and then decide to switch off en masse. With a major drop in hash rate the possibility of concentrating the remaining into a few hands increases and with it the possibility of an attack increases. It's easy to discuss mining (profit and loss) and lose sight of the fact that we're really discussing the security system of the coin.
Well I would say that at-home miners will likely (accidentally) remain "on" for some time after their operation is no longer profitable simply because they will not run the calculation as to how much money they are actually making (or loosing).

You also need to take into consideration that it is always "cold" in some part of the world. During these periods if home miners were to turn off their heat and use their miners to heat their home then they would effectively be getting free (or greatly reduced price) electricity.
legendary
Activity: 4256
Merit: 8551
'The right to privacy matters'
Thanks for answering. You're not really expecting it to have a massive effect then? I would think if the price stabilized below $200 it would force small time miners to switch off. Large farms might have an incentive to keep mining and hold the coin for a better payoff in the future. I would think small miners would be forced to shut down. They're less likely to afford being able to mine at a loss for three months.

Isn't it the other way around? Hobbyists can afford to prop it up. Some can squeeze out extra revenue through rentals, P2P, altcoins etc. A farm facing a $100k power bill might not be able to gamble on hodling.

Rich hobbyists maybe. Multimillion dollar farms probably have the reserve capital to ride out a short downswing. I would think that would kill the little guy. Aren't most of the huge farms in places with really cheap electricity?
I don't think the mining farms would likely continue to mine if they cannot earn enough to cover their operating costs. If their goal was to buy bitcoin then they would just buy on an exchange. If their goal was to ROI in terms of dollars then they would turn off their farm until the difficulty and price are at levels that would allow them to mine profitable again
That seems reasonable but any guess how much, how fast and what impact to the difficulty?


 great questions and very hard to answer .  this 180-210 btc price is not the death number for lots of us.
 
for example my power cost for feb mar apr  may =  about 400 usd a month or 1600.

  If I offer the sp20's here on bitcoin talk for 400 bucks and pay the shipping. I get 3200 maybe my  shipping is 200.

 I net 3k  now who may buy at 400 each I do not know but I am cheaper then sp tech  for underclocked gear not pushed hard.

I would need to decide what to do soon. I am debating listing the sp20's  on the marketplace.  I do not know.

 I know I can afford to mine until next Jan 2016 no worries even if the coins were worth 25 usd a piece.
I would lose about 2200 usd  If prize stayed at 25 usd and diff froze. Would I do that no if diff froze I would think I am fighting a losing battle.
But if price drops to 25 and stays stable diff would tank a lot.

 I have to think no major data center could mine at  the price of 50 to 75  a coin for more then 2 or 3 months.  Right now I will mine and watch.
 

Thank you both for the answers. I'm kind of worried about the possibility that miners will hang on for several months until the possibility of profiting is way out the window and then decide to switch off en masse. With a major drop in hash rate the possibility of concentrating the remaining into a few hands increases and with it the possibility of an attack increases. It's easy to discuss mining (profit and loss) and lose sight of the fact that we're really discussing the security system of the coin.

Well I like the idea of bitcoin as a possible hedge against your homeland (whatever country you are from)  having a crazy policy or price drop.

Kind of like a bar of gold or a few diamonds just in case.

In the last 25 years from 1990 to 2015 I believe wiki says  55 coups in different countries.
So the idea of having some btc in cyber space feels good to me. I kind of think this is the single best reason to support BTC.  Most people are tossed about by their countries rules and regs BTC unlock us a bit from the system.
I will always mine a bit   just to keep things going. I may not mine 5k an hour 24/7/365 like I am doing right now.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
Thanks for answering. You're not really expecting it to have a massive effect then? I would think if the price stabilized below $200 it would force small time miners to switch off. Large farms might have an incentive to keep mining and hold the coin for a better payoff in the future. I would think small miners would be forced to shut down. They're less likely to afford being able to mine at a loss for three months.

Isn't it the other way around? Hobbyists can afford to prop it up. Some can squeeze out extra revenue through rentals, P2P, altcoins etc. A farm facing a $100k power bill might not be able to gamble on hodling.

Rich hobbyists maybe. Multimillion dollar farms probably have the reserve capital to ride out a short downswing. I would think that would kill the little guy. Aren't most of the huge farms in places with really cheap electricity?
I don't think the mining farms would likely continue to mine if they cannot earn enough to cover their operating costs. If their goal was to buy bitcoin then they would just buy on an exchange. If their goal was to ROI in terms of dollars then they would turn off their farm until the difficulty and price are at levels that would allow them to mine profitable again
That seems reasonable but any guess how much, how fast and what impact to the difficulty?


 great questions and very hard to answer .  this 180-210 btc price is not the death number for lots of us.
 
for example my power cost for feb mar apr  may =  about 400 usd a month or 1600.

  If I offer the sp20's here on bitcoin talk for 400 bucks and pay the shipping. I get 3200 maybe my  shipping is 200.

 I net 3k  now who may buy at 400 each I do not know but I am cheaper then sp tech  for underclocked gear not pushed hard.

I would need to decide what to do soon. I am debating listing the sp20's  on the marketplace.  I do not know.

 I know I can afford to mine until next Jan 2016 no worries even if the coins were worth 25 usd a piece.
I would lose about 2200 usd  If prize stayed at 25 usd and diff froze. Would I do that no if diff froze I would think I am fighting a losing battle.
But if price drops to 25 and stays stable diff would tank a lot.

 I have to think no major data center could mine at  the price of 50 to 75  a coin for more then 2 or 3 months.  Right now I will mine and watch.
 

Thank you both for the answers. I'm kind of worried about the possibility that miners will hang on for several months until the possibility of profiting is way out the window and then decide to switch off en masse. With a major drop in hash rate the possibility of concentrating the remaining into a few hands increases and with it the possibility of an attack increases. It's easy to discuss mining (profit and loss) and lose sight of the fact that we're really discussing the security system of the coin.
legendary
Activity: 4256
Merit: 8551
'The right to privacy matters'
Thanks for answering. You're not really expecting it to have a massive effect then? I would think if the price stabilized below $200 it would force small time miners to switch off. Large farms might have an incentive to keep mining and hold the coin for a better payoff in the future. I would think small miners would be forced to shut down. They're less likely to afford being able to mine at a loss for three months.

Isn't it the other way around? Hobbyists can afford to prop it up. Some can squeeze out extra revenue through rentals, P2P, altcoins etc. A farm facing a $100k power bill might not be able to gamble on hodling.

Rich hobbyists maybe. Multimillion dollar farms probably have the reserve capital to ride out a short downswing. I would think that would kill the little guy. Aren't most of the huge farms in places with really cheap electricity?
I don't think the mining farms would likely continue to mine if they cannot earn enough to cover their operating costs. If their goal was to buy bitcoin then they would just buy on an exchange. If their goal was to ROI in terms of dollars then they would turn off their farm until the difficulty and price are at levels that would allow them to mine profitable again
That seems reasonable but any guess how much, how fast and what impact to the difficulty?


 great questions and very hard to answer .  this 180-210 btc price is not the death number for lots of us.
 
for example my power cost for feb mar apr  may =  about 400 usd a month or 1600.

  If I offer the sp20's here on bitcoin talk for 400 bucks and pay the shipping. I get 3200 maybe my  shipping is 200.

 I net 3k  now who may buy at 400 each I do not know but I am cheaper then sp tech  for underclocked gear not pushed hard.

I would need to decide what to do soon. I am debating listing the sp20's  on the marketplace.  I do not know.

 I know I can afford to mine until next Jan 2016 no worries even if the coins were worth 25 usd a piece.
I would lose about 2200 usd  If prize stayed at 25 usd and diff froze. Would I do that no if diff froze I would think I am fighting a losing battle.
But if price drops to 25 and stays stable diff would tank a lot.

 I have to think no major data center could mine at  the price of 50 to 75  a coin for more then 2 or 3 months.  Right now I will mine and watch.
 
full member
Activity: 147
Merit: 100
www.secondstrade.com - 190% return Binary option
Thanks for answering. You're not really expecting it to have a massive effect then? I would think if the price stabilized below $200 it would force small time miners to switch off. Large farms might have an incentive to keep mining and hold the coin for a better payoff in the future. I would think small miners would be forced to shut down. They're less likely to afford being able to mine at a loss for three months.

Isn't it the other way around? Hobbyists can afford to prop it up. Some can squeeze out extra revenue through rentals, P2P, altcoins etc. A farm facing a $100k power bill might not be able to gamble on hodling.

Rich hobbyists maybe. Multimillion dollar farms probably have the reserve capital to ride out a short downswing. I would think that would kill the little guy. Aren't most of the huge farms in places with really cheap electricity?
I don't think the mining farms would likely continue to mine if they cannot earn enough to cover their operating costs. If their goal was to buy bitcoin then they would just buy on an exchange. If their goal was to ROI in terms of dollars then they would turn off their farm until the difficulty and price are at levels that would allow them to mine profitable again
That seems reasonable but any guess how much, how fast and what impact to the difficulty?
The question of the impact to the difficulty is directly tied to how much. I would say that the large mining farms would likely be quicker to react to changes in price/difficulty as they have much more money invested and it is their business. The current markup of found blocks in the last 24 hours includes ~25% from "unknown" sources, and 3% of "unknown with 1AcAj9p" (according to this which should be roughly accurate) and I would speculate that most if not all of this is corporate farmers. Plus you have some other amount of smaller corporate farms that mine on pools. So you have at the very least 28% of the network being controlled by large farms. They likely have various electric costs so they would not all turn off at once.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
Thanks for answering. You're not really expecting it to have a massive effect then? I would think if the price stabilized below $200 it would force small time miners to switch off. Large farms might have an incentive to keep mining and hold the coin for a better payoff in the future. I would think small miners would be forced to shut down. They're less likely to afford being able to mine at a loss for three months.

Isn't it the other way around? Hobbyists can afford to prop it up. Some can squeeze out extra revenue through rentals, P2P, altcoins etc. A farm facing a $100k power bill might not be able to gamble on hodling.

Rich hobbyists maybe. Multimillion dollar farms probably have the reserve capital to ride out a short downswing. I would think that would kill the little guy. Aren't most of the huge farms in places with really cheap electricity?
I don't think the mining farms would likely continue to mine if they cannot earn enough to cover their operating costs. If their goal was to buy bitcoin then they would just buy on an exchange. If their goal was to ROI in terms of dollars then they would turn off their farm until the difficulty and price are at levels that would allow them to mine profitable again
That seems reasonable but any guess how much, how fast and what impact to the difficulty?
full member
Activity: 147
Merit: 100
www.secondstrade.com - 190% return Binary option
Thanks for answering. You're not really expecting it to have a massive effect then? I would think if the price stabilized below $200 it would force small time miners to switch off. Large farms might have an incentive to keep mining and hold the coin for a better payoff in the future. I would think small miners would be forced to shut down. They're less likely to afford being able to mine at a loss for three months.

Isn't it the other way around? Hobbyists can afford to prop it up. Some can squeeze out extra revenue through rentals, P2P, altcoins etc. A farm facing a $100k power bill might not be able to gamble on hodling.

Rich hobbyists maybe. Multimillion dollar farms probably have the reserve capital to ride out a short downswing. I would think that would kill the little guy. Aren't most of the huge farms in places with really cheap electricity?
I don't think the mining farms would likely continue to mine if they cannot earn enough to cover their operating costs. If their goal was to buy bitcoin then they would just buy on an exchange. If their goal was to ROI in terms of dollars then they would turn off their farm until the difficulty and price are at levels that would allow them to mine profitable again
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
Thanks for answering. You're not really expecting it to have a massive effect then? I would think if the price stabilized below $200 it would force small time miners to switch off. Large farms might have an incentive to keep mining and hold the coin for a better payoff in the future. I would think small miners would be forced to shut down. They're less likely to afford being able to mine at a loss for three months.

Isn't it the other way around? Hobbyists can afford to prop it up. Some can squeeze out extra revenue through rentals, P2P, altcoins etc. A farm facing a $100k power bill might not be able to gamble on hodling.

Rich hobbyists maybe. Multimillion dollar farms probably have the reserve capital to ride out a short downswing. I would think that would kill the little guy. Aren't most of the huge farms in places with really cheap electricity?

Ok, let's define a "hobbyist". Is Philip here a hobbyist with his ~10 TH/s ? I'm sure he can afford to run these through the winter even if BTC is $85 Smiley

I don't think farms have reserve capital, it's always been a race to upgrade... and even if they do, why would they burn it instead of shutting off the miners, at least temporarily?

Anyway, I'm not rich at all but I've ROIed on my S3s so I can dump them at any price... and keep running those S5s and SP20s as long as they make at least a penny. I'm certainly expecting some big farms stop mining before I do. I might be paying more for power but I have very little overhead and I have prepaid most of my costs... we'll see who bails first  Grin

Or maybe no one switches off and everyone runs in the red. The hash rate and difficult never drop. Then there's a greater loss to everyone and they effectively extended the time to profit out to 180 days even if the price increases in 90 days.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
Thanks for answering. You're not really expecting it to have a massive effect then? I would think if the price stabilized below $200 it would force small time miners to switch off. Large farms might have an incentive to keep mining and hold the coin for a better payoff in the future. I would think small miners would be forced to shut down. They're less likely to afford being able to mine at a loss for three months.

Isn't it the other way around? Hobbyists can afford to prop it up. Some can squeeze out extra revenue through rentals, P2P, altcoins etc. A farm facing a $100k power bill might not be able to gamble on hodling.

Rich hobbyists maybe. Multimillion dollar farms probably have the reserve capital to ride out a short downswing. I would think that would kill the little guy. Aren't most of the huge farms in places with really cheap electricity?

Ok, let's define a "hobbyist". Is Philip here a hobbyist with his ~10 TH/s ? I'm sure he can afford to run these through the winter even if BTC is $85 Smiley

I don't think farms have reserve capital, it's always been a race to upgrade... and even if they do, why would they burn it instead of shutting off the miners, at least temporarily?

Anyway, I'm not rich at all but I've ROIed on my S3s so I can dump them at any price... and keep running those S5s and SP20s as long as they make at least a penny. I'm certainly expecting some big farms stop mining before I do. I might be paying more for power but I have very little overhead and I have prepaid most of my costs... we'll see who bails first  Grin
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
Thanks for answering. You're not really expecting it to have a massive effect then? I would think if the price stabilized below $200 it would force small time miners to switch off. Large farms might have an incentive to keep mining and hold the coin for a better payoff in the future. I would think small miners would be forced to shut down. They're less likely to afford being able to mine at a loss for three months.

Isn't it the other way around? Hobbyists can afford to prop it up. Some can squeeze out extra revenue through rentals, P2P, altcoins etc. A farm facing a $100k power bill might not be able to gamble on hodling.

Rich hobbyists maybe. Multimillion dollar farms probably have the reserve capital to ride out a short downswing. I would think that would kill the little guy. Aren't most of the huge farms in places with really cheap electricity?
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
Thanks for answering. You're not really expecting it to have a massive effect then? I would think if the price stabilized below $200 it would force small time miners to switch off. Large farms might have an incentive to keep mining and hold the coin for a better payoff in the future. I would think small miners would be forced to shut down. They're less likely to afford being able to mine at a loss for three months.

Isn't it the other way around? Hobbyists can afford to prop it up. Some can squeeze out extra revenue through rentals, P2P, altcoins etc. A farm facing a $100k power bill might not be able to gamble on hodling.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
If the price were to stabilize between $180-$210 for 90 days how much drop off in hash rate would you all expect? How much, how fast and what impact to the difficulty?

really hard to answer your question.

The 180 - 210 number  puts a lot of pressure on diff.  but will some go out and buy sp20's and s-5's to be able to earn over the price of power.

Also is or does a .2-.3 watt miner exist at a cheap price?

Assuming sp20's and s-5's stay  as the best gear around.  how low do they sell at?

I am 8 sp20's and 1 s-5.

In terms of power available I am just about all in.  maybe 1 more s-5 and I am maxed.

What about the guy with 200 s-3's  he can't get much for them on ebay craig's list etc.

but at 180 his s-3's are in the red.

How about a big farm 2000 s-3's and the farmer did not sell his s-3's to buy s-5's or sp20's

lets give him 4 cent power in the state of washington  and 2 cents for other costs and he is 6 cent power.

his 1ph clears 30000 usd a month.   now if he setup with s-3's in nov 2014  he spent 500000 to build the farm.  say he made 100,000 in nov dec and jan.

  he is 400,000 in the hole but his  cheaper power cost farm is paying above costs. 

he is standing pat.  and hoping to skip the s-5's and the sp20's .  he may have enough back on his investment of 500k in the late spring just in time for new gear.


Thanks for answering. You're not really expecting it to have a massive effect then? I would think if the price stabilized below $200 it would force small time miners to switch off. Large farms might have an incentive to keep mining and hold the coin for a better payoff in the future. I would think small miners would be forced to shut down. They're less likely to afford being able to mine at a loss for three months.
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