Pages:
Author

Topic: KNCMiner and their 'magic' SHA256 alogorithm - page 5. (Read 8790 times)

full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
It's called trying to inflate the actual performance of your product and/or design knowledge. If your product is good, quote firm numbers based on hard, verifiable FACTS rather than allude to 'improvements' to a mathematical process which has data dependencies which cannot be changed or improved.

The academics who wrote the paper quoted are experts in their field - Dadda has an adder type named after him - and designed a method of reducing delay paths on an actual asic. They did'nt change or say they could change an algorithm. KNC claim to have an 'improved' algorithm, and that is just plain rubbish. Ask any mathematician.

Any respectable company would not make such ridiculous claims, if KNC have indeed used the methods from this paper in their design,then they should acknowledge it. Hence my annoyance.

Incidentally, Dadda and co. got their SHA256 engine to run at 'a clock speed of well over 1Ghz' on a 130nm process.

I'm a mathematician and I think you are splitting hairs.  It may not be acceptable in a mathematical journal, but in common usage it is acceptable to me to label an improved algorithm implementation as simply an improved algorithm.  Most people don't know the difference and it conveys the idea that they have some special sauce that makes theirs better than a naive implementation.

Nope, not right. It's not because ppl are ignorant of the jargon that you have to lie to them. If you don't even have the integrity to NOT lie to ppl who don't know what you are talking about...




Get a life.  There are much bigger things to worry about than a marketing department reducing a phrase from 3 long words to 2 long words that convey the same exact meaning to 90% of the population.

I think we've discovered here why marketing guys use words that end in -ize (-ise for our friends in the UK).  If they said:  

"Our wizards use tricks only cool kids know to optimize the run time of the SHA-256 algorithm",

can any of the attendant word smiths take issue with it?

EDIT: Wait, I'm answering my own question.  "Optimum" is a superlative; there is only one.  To assert something is optimized implies there is no better way to achieve a particular objective.  Since that is difficult to establish unambiguously, anyone who would state such is certainly a charlatan.

Tomorrow, on Dancing with the Angels on the Head of the Pin, we'll be discussing the near-criminal practice of claims that various compliers perform "optimization."
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
float Q_rsqrt( float number )
{
  long i;
  float x2, y;
  const float threehalfs = 1.5F;

  x2 = number * 0.5F;
  y  = number;
  i  = * ( long * ) &y;
  i  = 0x5f3759df - ( i >> 1 );
  y  = * ( float * ) &i;
  y  = y * ( threehalfs - ( x2 * y * y ) );

  return y;
}


... is the only magic I recognize.



Hooray for exploiting floating point notation!
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1067
Christian Antkow
float Q_rsqrt( float number )
{
  long i;
  float x2, y;
  const float threehalfs = 1.5F;

  x2 = number * 0.5F;
  y  = number;
  i  = * ( long * ) &y;
  i  = 0x5f3759df - ( i >> 1 );
  y  = * ( float * ) &i;
  y  = y * ( threehalfs - ( x2 * y * y ) );

  return y;
}


... is the only magic I recognize.

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
It's called trying to inflate the actual performance of your product and/or design knowledge. If your product is good, quote firm numbers based on hard, verifiable FACTS rather than allude to 'improvements' to a mathematical process which has data dependencies which cannot be changed or improved.

The academics who wrote the paper quoted are experts in their field - Dadda has an adder type named after him - and designed a method of reducing delay paths on an actual asic. They did'nt change or say they could change an algorithm. KNC claim to have an 'improved' algorithm, and that is just plain rubbish. Ask any mathematician.

Any respectable company would not make such ridiculous claims, if KNC have indeed used the methods from this paper in their design,then they should acknowledge it. Hence my annoyance.

Incidentally, Dadda and co. got their SHA256 engine to run at 'a clock speed of well over 1Ghz' on a 130nm process.

I'm a mathematician and I think you are splitting hairs.  It may not be acceptable in a mathematical journal, but in common usage it is acceptable to me to label an improved algorithm implementation as simply an improved algorithm.  Most people don't know the difference and it conveys the idea that they have some special sauce that makes theirs better than a naive implementation.

Nope, not right. It's not because ppl are ignorant of the jargon that you have to lie to them. If you don't even have the integrity to NOT lie to ppl who don't know what you are talking about...




Get a life.  There are much bigger things to worry about than a marketing department reducing a phrase from 3 long words to 2 long words that convey the same exact meaning to 90% of the population.
KS
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Huey, Dewey and Louie Roll Eyes
sr. member
Activity: 389
Merit: 250
Whoever does not believe in KNC do not buy. There are almost the only ones that sell asics. I understand that people wary of all manufacturers. Because until now only been hoaxes. Avalon except batch 1 and 2.
But there have been more than 2 days to ask them and expose them.
sr. member
Activity: 407
Merit: 250
TL;DR version of this thread.

Spew FUD around,

Don't read KnC Main Topic or Bitcoinorama's Open day questions,

Ask questions knowing full well they could have been asked at the open day,

refuse to have questions answered by logic or reason,

ask everyone to go do research for you,

still say scam/voodoo after evidence suggests otherwise,

Proceed to spew more FUD.

+1+1+1
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
KS
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
It's called trying to inflate the actual performance of your product and/or design knowledge. If your product is good, quote firm numbers based on hard, verifiable FACTS rather than allude to 'improvements' to a mathematical process which has data dependencies which cannot be changed or improved.

The academics who wrote the paper quoted are experts in their field - Dadda has an adder type named after him - and designed a method of reducing delay paths on an actual asic. They did'nt change or say they could change an algorithm. KNC claim to have an 'improved' algorithm, and that is just plain rubbish. Ask any mathematician.

Any respectable company would not make such ridiculous claims, if KNC have indeed used the methods from this paper in their design,then they should acknowledge it. Hence my annoyance.

Incidentally, Dadda and co. got their SHA256 engine to run at 'a clock speed of well over 1Ghz' on a 130nm process.

I'm a mathematician and I think you are splitting hairs.  It may not be acceptable in a mathematical journal, but in common usage it is acceptable to me to label an improved algorithm implementation as simply an improved algorithm.  Most people don't know the difference and it conveys the idea that they have some special sauce that makes theirs better than a naive implementation.

Nope, not right. It's not because ppl are ignorant of the jargon that you have to lie to them. If you don't even have the integrity to NOT lie to ppl who don't know what you are talking about...

sr. member
Activity: 407
Merit: 250
It's called trying to inflate the actual performance of your product and/or design knowledge. If your product is good, quote firm numbers based on hard, verifiable FACTS rather than allude to 'improvements' to a mathematical process which has data dependencies which cannot be changed or improved.

The academics who wrote the paper quoted are experts in their field - Dadda has an adder type named after him - and designed a method of reducing delay paths on an actual asic. They did'nt change or say they could change an algorithm. KNC claim to have an 'improved' algorithm, and that is just plain rubbish. Ask any mathematician.

Any respectable company would not make such ridiculous claims, if KNC have indeed used the methods from this paper in their design,then they should acknowledge it. Hence my annoyance.

Incidentally, Dadda and co. got their SHA256 engine to run at 'a clock speed of well over 1Ghz' on a 130nm process.

I'm a mathematician and I think you are splitting hairs.  It may not be acceptable in a mathematical journal, but in common usage it is acceptable to me to label an improved algorithm implementation as simply an improved algorithm.  Most people don't know the difference and it conveys the idea that they have some special sauce that makes theirs better than a naive implementation.

+1

this is what i already said...
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
It's called trying to inflate the actual performance of your product and/or design knowledge. If your product is good, quote firm numbers based on hard, verifiable FACTS rather than allude to 'improvements' to a mathematical process which has data dependencies which cannot be changed or improved.

The academics who wrote the paper quoted are experts in their field - Dadda has an adder type named after him - and designed a method of reducing delay paths on an actual asic. They did'nt change or say they could change an algorithm. KNC claim to have an 'improved' algorithm, and that is just plain rubbish. Ask any mathematician.

Any respectable company would not make such ridiculous claims, if KNC have indeed used the methods from this paper in their design,then they should acknowledge it. Hence my annoyance.

Incidentally, Dadda and co. got their SHA256 engine to run at 'a clock speed of well over 1Ghz' on a 130nm process.

I'm a mathematician and I think you are splitting hairs.  It may not be acceptable in a mathematical journal, but in common usage it is acceptable to me to label an improved algorithm implementation as simply an improved algorithm.  Most people don't know the difference and it conveys the idea that they have some special sauce that makes theirs better than a naive implementation.
hero member
Activity: 752
Merit: 500
bitcoin hodler

And speaking of said, here are some questions you shouldask anyone wanting your money up front for any asic product:

1. Who is the silicon foundry?
2. Are you using a Multi Project Wafer service or a full mask set?
3. What is the chip size?
4. How many pipelines does it have and what is the operating frequency?
5. What is the target package type?
6. If you are using a full mask set ($1.6 - $2.3 Million for 28nm) who or how are you financing it and what are your contingency plans if you need a respin?
7. To get '90 day' production you need a lot of chips, meaning you need several wafers (costing 15 - 30k dollars each in a small geometry). Refer to 6 above.
8. What software tools have you used for development and if they are commercial ones like Cadence, exactly how have you financed them up to now?
9. What happens to my money/order if you miss the 90 day target?
10. Will you publish an order backlog summary for purchasers to examine?
11. Will you publish the invoice for NRE for purchasers to see? (ie to see that it really is x nm)

Feel free to add your own. There is absolutely no reason for any company wanting your money NOT to answer these questions.

There has been 2 open days at KNCminer. They answered pretty much all the questions asked to them. You could have sendt your questions with someone attending.

Wow, the fanboi's have certainly been to town on this one. I'm going to side with brontosaurus as his questions 1 thru 8 are very pertinent.

As for the open day, from BitcoinOrama's report https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoinorama-report-on-the-kncminerorsoc-open-day-mon-100613-stockholm-232852 the most telling fact that was disclosed was that KNCMiner's ASIC has a huge die size and they have absolutely no wafer or packaged device test strategy. They are just going to solder the chips on boards and hope for the best. There will be tears  Cry

I concur, these are all really good questions
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Tears of joy Smiley
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100

And speaking of said, here are some questions you shouldask anyone wanting your money up front for any asic product:

1. Who is the silicon foundry?
2. Are you using a Multi Project Wafer service or a full mask set?
3. What is the chip size?
4. How many pipelines does it have and what is the operating frequency?
5. What is the target package type?
6. If you are using a full mask set ($1.6 - $2.3 Million for 28nm) who or how are you financing it and what are your contingency plans if you need a respin?
7. To get '90 day' production you need a lot of chips, meaning you need several wafers (costing 15 - 30k dollars each in a small geometry). Refer to 6 above.
8. What software tools have you used for development and if they are commercial ones like Cadence, exactly how have you financed them up to now?
9. What happens to my money/order if you miss the 90 day target?
10. Will you publish an order backlog summary for purchasers to examine?
11. Will you publish the invoice for NRE for purchasers to see? (ie to see that it really is x nm)

Feel free to add your own. There is absolutely no reason for any company wanting your money NOT to answer these questions.

There has been 2 open days at KNCminer. They answered pretty much all the questions asked to them. You could have sendt your questions with someone attending.

Wow, the fanboi's have certainly been to town on this one. I'm going to side with brontosaurus as his questions 1 thru 8 are very pertinent.

As for the open day, from BitcoinOrama's report https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoinorama-report-on-the-kncminerorsoc-open-day-mon-100613-stockholm-232852 the most telling fact that was disclosed was that KNCMiner's ASIC has a huge die size and they have absolutely no wafer or packaged device test strategy. They are just going to solder the chips on boards and hope for the best. There will be tears  Cry
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
What puzzles me is the fact that Bitfury already has its chips, and they plan to ship in September as KnC.

KnC has no chips whatsoever, in fact they plan to receive them in August and send them directly to production. It seems that they want to do in one month or less what takes other players at least 2/3 months.

I have to admit that the fact that Bitfury's chips are already in the wild being tested as I'm writing makes me kinda uncomfortable as a KnC customer. We are entering very fast in very competitive times, in which every week is crucial and determines if ROI will be achieved or not.

KS
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
KS, it goes back to the basic questions I put in my earlier post. You have to select a foundry early on to get access to their technology design rules and cell libraries, unless you already have said or are using COT. KNC clearly don't have the first and are'nt using the second. So they are still at least 6 - 8 weeks away from tape out, and another 12 weeks to prototypes. That's end November by my estimation, so forget getting any product this year.

Can you see why I'm concerned about what companies say / promise? One lie leads to another and so on....



I know exactly what you mean. However, I can't say what ORSoC is capable of but I'm starting to think they are also full of it. They were still working on the FPGA while claiming the ASIC was ready, but then the fab isn't selected yet. Roll Eyes

They said the fab or ASIC maker (so I assume the fab) will complete the ASIC design (so take the FPGA bitstream and convert it to an ASIC?), since they are not doing it themselves. So there is a possibility for slippage right there (trusting 3rd parties to keep your schedule - yeah right), then tape out in x weeks (say 10, to keep a tight schedule). No prototype, no testing, just production. If they are lucky, that'd put tape out sometime in September, then there is packaging, assembly, shipping, etc. It's "doable", but until their pipeline is not tested...
donator
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1060
between a rock and a block!
The real question to ask yourself is:
What do I think an improvement of x% to the SHA256 algorithm means?
Increase in difficulty
sr. member
Activity: 441
Merit: 250
KS, it goes back to the basic questions I put in my earlier post. You have to select a foundry early on to get access to their technology design rules and cell libraries, unless you already have said or are using COT. KNC clearly don't have the first and are'nt using the second. So they are still at least 6 - 8 weeks away from tape out, and another 12 weeks to prototypes. That's end November by my estimation, so forget getting any product this year.

Can you see why I'm concerned about what companies say / promise? One lie leads to another and so on....

KS
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Well, even if they do make a product (ASIC+what goes around), KNCMINER are still full of shit and your dealings with them should be carefully evaluated.

That said, if they ship and don't scam everyone, they'll just be like any other lame business you have to deal with in this "line of work".

@Brontosaurus: forget getting ANY financial info from them. They just magically used their 5000 EUR in company equity to get the project off the ground (oh, BTW that and the preorder money... - they hadn't even selected the foundry yet, they were to do it around Wednesday if the report is correct). But they don't call it equity, the seem to think it's some Gov tax Roll Eyes (at least that's what they want you to believe, justifying the fact they didn't put, say, 20x more in it...)
sr. member
Activity: 407
Merit: 250
Knew I'd find this eventually:

"An ASIC Design for a High Speed Implementation of the Hash Function SHA256 (384, 512)", Dadda, Machetti, Owen (2004)

These guys came up with a re-timing pipeline which increases Maximum Clock Speed on a regular SHA engine by 36%. No new algorithm - you cannot 'improve' the existing one, this is simply an exercise to reduce critical path delay on an ASIC (not an FPGA)

So to any of you that are prepared to swallow the shite that KNC put out: Beware.

I'm not saying they are scammers, but they are dishonest with their information, to put it mildly.

Read into that what you will.

it's finickiness. The wording seems this way, thereby  everybody is able to understand it without detailed knowledge .
Pages:
Jump to: