Lab Rat Data Processing, LLC (LabRatMining) Official Announcement - page 271.

||bit

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 506

Quote from: Vbs on July 17, 2013, 10:32:48 AM

Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on July 17, 2013, 10:24:10 AM

This just crazy ,How could folks invest in a company that might start mining in mid-2014 or never.....

Even if they started mining today... The break-even point is ~266.3 days. The big problem is people just disregard the average difficulty increase per day. You can see that effect on the "...considering reduction" rows. And this is without taking into account imminent stuff like this: http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/

http://www.coinish.com/calc/#

If you were just starting mining with new asic hardware now, what percentage of resulting mined bitcoins should you re-invest in the whole operation to sustain profitability to offset the affects of difficulty increase, and maybe make a bit more headway?

Let's assume it was something like 70% (we can say power costs is part of this). Then wouldn't that be like saying the 30% which you don't re-invest are like dividends you pay to yourself - other than you own the hardware in this case. So, if you took in 30%, what MH value might that equate to per bitcoin invested? Then how does THAT number compare to $15/100MH? And consider that the portion of the hash rate you don't receive as dividends may at least in some significant part going to increase the hashing power of the system.

I'm simply presenting a perspective.

Caveats: I'm not sure what actual numbers would be more correct. Difficulty levels might increase in ways that can't be matched by any plan (other than dumping in new money from outside the system). And it's probably not something to overlook that you don't own the hardware.

SOSLOVE868

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 250

Quote from: Factory on July 17, 2013, 10:43:05 AM

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again:

I find it very hard to imagine a scenario in which investors actually profit from this offering. This is merely a method for the issuer to re-sell BFL pre-orders at a large markup to profit while revealing themselves of the majority of the risk. Outside of the facts, the rest of the contract is mostly filler language used to entice potential investors.

It is the day for LabRat Mining to celebrating its IPO...and a day that naive investors get pay for their lessons.

Personally, I think this really a good business ,whether you have orders in hand or not ,just seat at home typing few thousand words and it will soon become few thousand BTCs....

Great Business model.....

DobZombie

hero member

Activity: 896

Merit: 532

Former curator of The Bitcoin Museum

Quote from: Lab_Rat on July 17, 2013, 06:48:29 AM

I have orders placed going back to Sept with 3 people selling me their gear second hand as soon as they get it (June and July orders) This total hashrate is in the 2-3TH range I believe...

Who on Earth would sell that much hasrate right now? This infers 1 of three things...

1) By "buying second hand" you mean you're getting some devices from BFL that you ordered but didn't pay for yet

2) You're buying the devices second hand and paying a ridiculous markup

3) The person you're purchasing the minirigs from is completely retarded and is selling an item they purchased 12 months ago, that they've only just received.

I'm not trying to be aggressive here, I'm just attempting to understand the plan.

also

When will dividends begin to pay?

and...

It's been asked a few times already, but when are you expecting to receive the other 8TH/s from BFL?

Factory

sr. member

Activity: 259

Merit: 250

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again:

I find it very hard to imagine a scenario in which investors actually profit from this offering. This is merely a method for the issuer to re-sell BFL pre-orders at a large markup to profit while revealing themselves of the majority of the risk. Outside of the facts, the rest of the contract is mostly filler language used to entice potential investors.

SOSLOVE868

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 250

Quote from: Vbs on July 17, 2013, 10:32:48 AM

Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on July 17, 2013, 10:24:10 AM

This just crazy ,How could folks invest in a company that might start mining in mid-2014 or never.....

Even if they started mining today... The break-even point is ~266.3 days. The big problem is people just disregard the average difficulty increase per day. You can see that effect on the "...considering reduction" rows. And this is without taking into account imminent stuff like this: http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/

http://www.coinish.com/calc/#

It is acceptable for that recovery date ,but mining may start on 2014 or never is the key concern and their order are based on BFL/Bitfurry is another concern.
BFL? refer to its history ,we know it is beautiful unicorn....needless to say....
about the Bitfurry , from my personal opinion I do not see any evidence shows it will be next ASICMINER, more look like next BFL...(May be I am wrong)

However, today is the big wining day of Labrat mining, since it sold over 1500 btc in Bitfunder... Good luck to those lucky buyers.

Vbs

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: SOSLOVE868 on July 17, 2013, 10:24:10 AM

This just crazy ,How could folks invest in a company that might start mining in mid-2014 or never.....

Even if they started mining today... The break-even point is ~266.3 days. The big problem is people just disregard the average difficulty increase per day. You can see that effect on the "...considering reduction" rows. And this is without taking into account imminent stuff like this: http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/

http://www.coinish.com/calc/#

SOSLOVE868

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 250

This just crazy ,How could folks invest in a company that might start mining in mid-2014 or never.....

Vbs

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

How come I can't find anywhere what hardware have you guys already ordered and the time for the mining to start?

If the network reaches something like 500TH in August/September, everyone's shares just take a hit of ~50% value without you guys even starting! Sad

Nemesis

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 250

Quote from: joele on July 17, 2013, 08:45:03 AM

The price is 0.15/100Mh/s or 0.0015/Mh/s, that is fair price if the dividend will start to pay next week, but if payment is after 2 months with 15% increase difficulty then this is too expensive.

You will be luck to have mining of 10TH/s in 2 months

LOL keep wishing ppl. Fools and their money soon be parted

joele

legendary

Activity: 1022

Merit: 1000

The price is 0.15/100Mh/s or 0.0015/Mh/s, that is fair price if the dividend will start to pay next week, but if payment is after 2 months with 15% increase difficulty then this is too expensive.

hawkingchen

newbie

Activity: 4

Merit: 0

Quote from: ThickAsThieves on July 17, 2013, 08:11:53 AM

I haven't really taken a look at this asset until now, and I'm must say I'm baffled about why anyone would buy it. There are so many holes in the prospectus, and so much risk it isn't even funny.

1. Do bondholders own the equipment they are paying for?
2. Will there be any transparency for purchase prices? Proof of purchases?
3. Does the company have any assets or experience to justify such a large fundraising effort?
4. What pool will you mine on to prove your work?
5. Why on earth would anyone want to buy into stale BFL orders? Why order from any company that has not demonstrated reliable delivery?
6. When does mining start?
7. What's in it for Lab Rat?

I could go on, but that's enough for now.

Good question!!!!!

ThickAsThieves

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

I haven't really taken a look at this asset until now, and I'm must say I'm baffled about why anyone would buy it. There are so many holes in the prospectus, and so much risk it isn't even funny.

1. Do bondholders own the equipment they are paying for?
2. Will there be any transparency for purchase prices? Proof of purchases?
3. Does the company have any assets or experience to justify such a large fundraising effort?
4. What pool will you mine on to prove your work?
5. Why on earth would anyone want to buy into stale BFL orders? Why order from any company that has not demonstrated reliable delivery?
6. When does mining start?
7. What's in it for Lab Rat?

I could go on, but that's enough for now.

||bit

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 506

Quote from: Lab_Rat on July 17, 2013, 06:48:29 AM

I apologize for missing a few questions, I have been extremely busy. I have orders placed going back to Sept with 3 people selling me their gear second hand as soon as they get it (June and July orders) This total hashrate is in the 2-3TH range I believe... I'm in the process of determining the exact amount. On top of this, I will be placing a large order with BFL and BitFury. The size of the BitFury order is unknown as to yet, but will likely raise the hashrate per bond.

So I am following 3 paths at the same time to ensure I get the gear as soon as possible, but I can't be sure as to when either of these companies can ship... It's not a matter of exact date, but rather relative to everyone else shipping...

I hope I have answered your question, but to be honest, it is impossible to give you a date for everything at this time.

Labrat.
Another route to consider is DIY kits from Bitfury. If you can save even 25%, it would serve LRM & 'bond' holders well and approximate more closely a 100% re-investment plan that would have been based on full priced rigs.

Also, consider those with BFL vouchers. Perhaps, you can ask any of the bond holders if they have BFL vouchers they won't use for themselves. Then you pay for and order the hardware through them, but have it dropped at LR address.

Another plan is ask any bond holders if they have chip credits they want to dump on LRM. Buy the BFL chips and trade the chips for hardware from existing other manufacturers.

But if you can get a fast delivery on Bitfury hardware, it seems the best route so far. It would even be better than BFL w/ vouchers.

||bit

Lab_Rat

hero member

Activity: 599

Merit: 502

Token/ICO management

I apologize for missing a few questions, I have been extremely busy. I have orders placed going back to Sept with 3 people selling me their gear second hand as soon as they get it (June and July orders) This total hashrate is in the 2-3TH range I believe... I'm in the process of determining the exact amount. On top of this, I will be placing a large order with BFL and BitFury. The size of the BitFury order is unknown as to yet, but will likely raise the hashrate per bond.

So I am following 3 paths at the same time to ensure I get the gear as soon as possible, but I can't be sure as to when either of these companies can ship... It's not a matter of exact date, but rather relative to everyone else shipping...

I hope I have answered your question, but to be honest, it is impossible to give you a date for everything at this time.

desired_username

hero member

Activity: 886

Merit: 1013

Due to no responses to the raised questions I'm withdrawing my interest.

Be careful people.

Nemesis

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 250

Who is "we"? list all the people involved with this company.

Kyune

sr. member

Activity: 287

Merit: 250

Quote from: Ashitank on July 15, 2013, 05:39:15 AM

Lab_rat what hardware have you ordered with BFL , dates on which order was placed with BFL or do you already have got some BFL hardware to mine with ?

This question was not directly answered by Lab_Rat.

However from the overall presentation of the offering, I infer the answers are: 1) nothing has been ordered from BFL yet, 2) not applicable since not ordered yet, 3) no hardware is presently available to mine with.

Lab_Rat, please clarify if I have inferred the wrong answers.

Lab_Rat

hero member

Activity: 599

Merit: 502

Token/ICO management

Quote from: DavinciJ15 on July 16, 2013, 08:46:11 AM

Quote from: BigCstyle on July 16, 2013, 01:57:15 AM

Quote from: Deprived on July 16, 2013, 12:38:12 AM

Quote from: Lab_Rat on July 16, 2013, 12:02:59 AM

Quote from: Deprived on July 15, 2013, 02:26:51 PM

Quote from: DavinciJ15 on July 15, 2013, 01:21:08 PM

Quote from: Lab_Rat on July 14, 2013, 09:09:40 PM

Dividends will be paid out on Saturdays ~12 noon Eastern Time(UTC -0500.)

If I buy the bonds on Wednesday when will the first dividend be paid? Saturday the 20th of July 2013?

If so I will buy 100 BTC worth of bonds.

You don't get any dividends until the machines arrive. After that you get 85% of what the machines you paid a 200% markup for mine.

If you don't want to wait you can achieve the same result faster - just send 2/3 of your BTC to an address you don't have the key for.

Where do you see a 15% fee included? It will be a zero fee company with all running costs covered by the company for life... As well as that, the hashrate per bond will be increasing over time. In fact Dave from BitFury has agreed to fly out to meet me in order to present a working prototype to me. I will likely be investing in BitFury a significant amount which will increase the hashrate per bond significantly.

Sorry - was confusing this with one of the other offerings trying to sell on hardware/pre-orders at a big markup.

Make up your mind whether you're running a bond or a share.

If it's a bond then fix in stone what gets paid.
If it's a share then add accountability in - and take your cut via a defined management fee.

This vague "it's sort of a bond but I'll try to give a bit more than X but without any guarantees and I'll keep whatever I feel like" approach just isn't one or the other. Investors should know what they're entitled to from the contract. If it's a bond then they're entitled to some fixed payment. If a share then they own the output of everything bought with funds raised - less costs and management fee.

Hmm, this reminds me of people coming and viewing your belongings for sale on craigslist, yet spend the duration of the time kicking tires, and questioning its worth.
Its a very simple concept, either invest, or don't.

Actually the dude has a point. A bond has a fixed rate coupon (interest rate) and share pays out after company costs and retentions are met. This is nether a bond or a share and now I have concerns that this operation was not well thought out.

This bond/share creates market confusion when people want to unload it and I don't see how you can run this operation without taking operational costs.

RatLab need to be fair to himself and keep some of the value he has created.

I'm sorry you feel as though it wasn't thought out, maybe I didn't like either a bond or a share scheme. One the investors are locked in at a certain hashrate even if new tech comes out meaning their dividends are constantly shrinking. The other, I would have to keep shares as to maintain ownership of my own company which gets messy if I want to issue new shares...

I just wanted something that could reward both parties and increase in worth over time instead of deteriorate in value.

Also thank you for being understanding of the fact that I should not run a high scale mining company and put myself in the hole while doing it. I have already sunk hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars into this company before I took a dime from anyone. I didn't even take money from the few individuals I let pledge initial investments to me. They were only there to see if there would be interest in my starting up a company.

Lab_Rat

hero member

Activity: 599

Merit: 502

Token/ICO management

Quote from: DavinciJ15 on July 16, 2013, 08:37:58 AM

Quote from: Lab_Rat on July 16, 2013, 12:02:59 AM

Quote from: Deprived on July 15, 2013, 02:26:51 PM

Quote from: DavinciJ15 on July 15, 2013, 01:21:08 PM

Quote from: Lab_Rat on July 14, 2013, 09:09:40 PM

Dividends will be paid out on Saturdays ~12 noon Eastern Time(UTC -0500.)

If I buy the bonds on Wednesday when will the first dividend be paid? Saturday the 20th of July 2013?

If so I will buy 100 BTC worth of bonds.

You don't get any dividends until the machines arrive. After that you get 85% of what the machines you paid a 200% markup for mine.

If you don't want to wait you can achieve the same result faster - just send 2/3 of your BTC to an address you don't have the key for.

Where do you see a 15% fee included? It will be a zero fee company with all running costs covered by the company for life... As well as that, the hashrate per bond will be increasing over time. In fact Dave from BitFury has agreed to fly out to meet me in order to present a working prototype to me. I will likely be investing in BitFury a significant amount which will increase the hashrate per bond significantly.

So the answer is NO.

Fuck I hate it when people don't answer the question directly. It's shady. Don't dance around a direct question.

Next question are these bonds tradable on an exchange? If so what exchange can I buy and sell them?

BitFunder.com : https://bitfunder.com/asset/LabRatMining

sgrunger

full member

Activity: 122

Merit: 100

Interesting.

Topic: Lab Rat Data Processing, LLC (LabRatMining) Official Announcement - page 271. (Read 452170 times)