Topic: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) - page 782. (Read 1079974 times)

To be honest, I think it's highly optimistic that they will ever at any point in time have 10% of the network. I'd like them to surprise me in that regard, but I'm also totally happy if they just get 5%.

Just for comparison... ASICMINER is at about 8% now.

That's exactly why this game is so risky, kid.  Sell your shares and go do something useful with it if you don't understand what you're doing here.
If I owned a company, I could sell shares, telling everybody they will get X amount of profit.  There is no legal obligations on my part, as it is a virtual security exchange.  I could easily run off with the money, and that is why this place isn't safe.  There is no legal protection behind the shares you have purchased because there is no regulation.  There are no authorities to enforce any kind of trust.  

This is not a real stock exchange.  You don't have any legal ownership of any company here.

Go confirm this with burnside, he will be in complete agreement.

You have a point, but I think you're overlooking that growth is not only determined by how much money you can throw at it. LC has way more money than they need right now, they have said so multiple times. The chips currently on its way were already payed before all of us even knew LC existed, and the IPO money goes to development of the next generation (65nm) ASIC.
When they use 30% of their mining income to fund further growth, I believe it will be enough by far.
If we pool our resources together to give them, say, another million dollars, that won't necessarily speed up anything. These things not only take money, they take time and skill.
The speed can be increased by increasing infrasctructure, hiring more personel etc., but still only at a limited rate. If they calculate that the income from 30% of the mining&hardware sales is enough to sustain their growth, then that's fine. And I see no reason why it shouldn't be.
Speculating that Intel and AMD might jump into this and kill all the current ASIC companies in bitcoin is really a bit far-fetched IMHO.

No, why should you vote to lower dividends when you can keep paying dividends and use the bond? Do shares even have voting rights? Voting to cut dividends will make people go into Asicminer or whatever competition is willing to use the bond or complicated method. People aren't going to like losing dividends collectively but I think if some people want to invest their dividends into a loan via a bond then they can just buy the bond and as individuals make that choice.

At some point its going to become so competitive that Labcoin will not maintain 10% of the network and that will probably happen within 3 years. How much more efficient can chips get?

Ok you keep telling me you don't can you show me where this has been discussed that you hold no ownership? if you hold no ownership the company could just say thanks for the money fuck off, have a nice day.

That is why I am saying the race isn't to smaller and more efficient chips. The race is actually to mass produce as many chips as possible and for as cheap as possible. The more chips you have the more TH you can mine with. The more chips you have the more you can sell and if the chips are cheaper to produce you can profit more.

The winner will be the company that can produce the most chips for cheapest price regardless of the efficiency of the chip. Eventually all the chips will meet the physical limits of efficiency anyway and then the only way to make money will be mass production of chips for the low cost.

Okay, you keep thinking you hold ownership buddy.  If you keep fightin with everything that everybody says, you're never going to learn anything..
Look it up and read into it.  Listen more, talk less..

Again, this can be accomplished simply by voting on suspending dividends, or lowering them, to raise the needed capital to continue to maintain 10% hashrate.

Adding bonds, dividend reimbursement plans, or anything else just complicates the issue. 

From what they mentioned in OP and the IPO there are 10M shares of which the owners own 3M, and the 7M are public.

Therefore the public owns 70% of the company, you don't need to have voting rights to be an owner. End of the day if the company gets liquidated the public has the rights to 70% of the assets. This of course is all based on a country that has laws and can enforce these things, such as the US for example.

In Hong Kong who knows, you might get told too bad lol.

Here is a long term problem though, at some point we will reach the physical limits of ASIC chip technology. When those limits are reached then the only way to maintain a 10% of the network hashrate and outpace the continuous difficulty increase will be to make massive amounts of chips. A company with a lot more money will be able to make a lot more chips, so that would mean Nvidia, AMD or Intel could come in at the last minute and start mining themselves and because they have billions to spend on chips they could easily do a 51% attack by having the money to spend on it.

Right now we assume Bitcoin wont be big enough for them to spend that kind of money and that is correct. If Labcoin is to exist beyond the race to 20nm (because eventually there will not be any more efficiency left in chip design), then how will Labcoin compete with the company who can spend a few hundred million on chips?

For this reason it is worth considering releasing a long term growth bond that people can buy into which gives Labcoin a loan for the long term future. This would guarantee that as long as there are enough people who support Labcoin within the community by buying the bond that Labcoin could maintain 10% of the network. It would remove the risks I outline above.

Ciphermine is considering this approach. I wouldn't be surprised if Asicminer eventually does something similar. I see it as one of the few ways to leverage the advantages of being first. I don't think Labcoin will be able to rely on chip efficiency increases for longer than a few years and then the race will be to see who can make the most chips the fastest and sell the most chips for the chapest (and mine). Labcoin will have stiff competition in making and selling chips and the profit margins could shrink.

These aren't the same kind of "shares" you deal with on a real stock exchange.  This is a virtual bitcoin security exchange. You have no ownership of the company and you have no voting rights, unless they are given to you as part of the agreement.  Trust me, this has been discussed many times before.  

You clearly don't know how shares work do you?

Ignore this kid. I think he just want to increase his post count.

So if you hold a share of Apple stock, do you get the new iPad cheaper?

We don't own 70% of the company.
This isn't Wall Street.

If you want a discount,Lock your shares first to confirm that your are a shareholder? how difficult to handle it like this.

Because you're subsidizing the competition.

why is that silly? We own 70% of the company why shouldn't it be cheaper for us. If you owned a business and wanted to be your merchandise would you pay full price for it? or cost? What's silly is paying full price for something you produce yourself lol.

I understand I'm just saying in the future if you guys decide to start selling actual hardware, would the shareholders get a discounted price on the units?

Also, I was under the impression that you guys will engage in hardware miner sales, or just chips? It would make sense as hardware miners will have a higher margin than selling bulk chip orders.

That is a terrible idea and (I hope) they won't do something like that.
I hope that when the time comes, they will offer their miners at competetive prices that also make sense to customers (contrary to what AM is doing so far).
But not cheaper for shareholders, that's just silly.