Topic: Let us devise a Sensible solution to Copy and Paste situation. - page 2. (Read 1190 times)

This post is simply brain storming - I'm not saying I do or even would support the ideas that follow.

I do not think it should be linked to payment at all. As mentioned, this is creating one rule for the rich and a stricter set of rules for the poor, and gives off the message that you can "buy" your way out of problems (to an extent). Bitcoin, and by extension, this forum, should be equally accessible to all, regardless of financial background.

I do think there are different "levels" of plagiarism, if you will. Compare the newbie bounty campaign spammer with >10% of their posts plagiarized solely for meeting their campaign requirements to the legendary with 1 or 2 posts out of thousands which were plagiarized but were posted to provide info or answer questions asked by others. Having said that, the former massively outnumbers the latter.

I think an argument could be made (not that I'm making it per se) for some leniency for this (very rare) latter group of users, if the user is a clear net positive to the forum. As ETFbitcoin said, this could be quantified by their rank, earned merits, or recognition from other members. Their number of good reports could also be a useful metric in this regard. Whether the user is a net positive could also be a decision for staff (as a collective group) to make on an individual case-by-case basis.

In terms of these users, then a punishment like a 6 or 12 month signature ban, or penalising of ranks and merits, for the first offence only seems appropriate. A second offence would result in permanent ban as it does now.

Having said all that, I think the cases that this would apply to are in the single digits, compared to the thousands and thousands of accounts being perma-banned for plagiarism. It would require a lot of time and energy from the admins/mods to set up this new system for the benefit of a tiny handful of users, and that time and energy could be much better spent elsewhere. The bottom line remains the same - if you don't want to be banned for plagiarism, then don't plagiarize.

I agree with a lot of your points

However if we make it too small of an amount then it kind of lowers the risk reward ratio. I mean say if they only had to pay 0.05 then it is not much risk for them to put us through the trouble of scanning the history looking for more so they will still all appeal...and I don't think would inspire many people to try and find additional copy and pastes. I guess we could make legends pay more than noobs because they have larger post histories to scan so it is more time consuming to locate additional infractions? also legend should have more money? not essentially true either i guess so perhaps just cut it back to 0.25 if people think 0.5btc is too much. I mean remember if not guilty of more they get it all back.

Also legends are going to be getting something more the other way with the 1.1000 rule so it is swings and roundabouts.

Also the finding of extra infractions is a rewards structure for anyone or first to find enough for perm ban exceed 1.1000

I think merit reduction as suchmoon said could be good but people know my opinion on merit and noobs have none anyway. I guess it could work since very high merit earners (although may not be the best posters on this board) but they are probably very unlikely to be copy and pasters so perhaps the merit reduction could work because that would reduce rank usually anyway.

I mean if it was possible to disable sigs in the console of the forum this would be great at some point and could easily become part of the punishment then without messing with merit nor rank because they cant join sigs whatever then for 1 year.

@ etf i like those ideas too but I think a list of strict criteria is better than a group who decides without a list of criteria to match against.

Cutting down appeals from the real spammers who know they are spammers is key because that cuts away most of the waste of time.
If you get only 1 or 2 appeals a week or less from REAL good posters who know okay I have messed up or been lazy or done something someone didnt give a toss about years ago but It will easily be evident i am net positive under close scrutiny.... you have almost already solved the issue. Well you still need to detect

Not that I would favour a change of rule on this matter, but brainstorming on ideas around it is fine, and the outcome will likely be one of those let’s agree to disagree ones.

By principle, any change on the rule should give everyone equal chances, and having to escrow 0,5 BTC (or whatever relatively high value to many) to have a proper appeal, is creating a justice that is segmented by class from the start (no different to real life, buy I don’t think it should be a starter).

Whatever system may be devised cannot be one that takes up bags of time from mods/admins, so a thorough search for the plagiarism ratio of a given user should not be down to a semi-manual search. That could in any case be on the table if there were to be a back-end admin tool to perform such a task, but until there is some high degree of automatism to the process, the required time is better served on moderating tasks.

@ETFbitcoin though seem like a sensible set of criteria to make exceptions for those that are net positive. Ok justice on different levels again, but the underlying principle is that the postulant is a clear net positive, has been so for some time, and that resources to look into the case are spread over, and not concentrated solely on admins/mods.

A couple of things could be added in general terms:

-   Just as in real life crimes prescribe after a certain period of time, there could be a limiting timeframe to allow for personal redemption and change of ways (i.e. plagiarism rule infraction limited to last 2 years).

-   A bit wild, but one could accept being deranked a couple of levels as part of the penalty (for the top ranks only).

I would be in favour of this for probably one or two cases in the past year, but theymos disagrees on the most obvious one of those:

I guess it is better to see if there are improvements to be made by listing issues as they are now and issues after new system.

The more I think about it the more the other way seems a bit better than my first idea although I still feel the first idea could help and I would have to do a advantages and disadvantages to that later..

So problems the current system has

1. too many appeals  hinging on the fact they are hoping no other serious copy and paste can be found with NO risk to them for us wasting time finding what they hope we will not.
2. Only an appearance of an appeal once infraction substatiated because a/ if there is one case it is perm ban b/ not man power or incentive enough to scan  entire histories for others to validate or deny their claim so we dont know..
3. Is possible for a net positive poster that is telling truth about only doing once or less 1.1000 to be lost ..or person that made a mistake early on but has for years been a good poster
4. some people may (believing perhaps wrongly there is only 1 case or 1.1000) think some of them get rough treatment


New system where we find one copy and past and if they want to have a chance of a real appeal after actual infraction is confirmed then 0.5 btc (or some fee) put with escrow for 1 month (mod) if anyone finds more or more than 1.1000 then (fee) split between original finder, mod for escrow and first person to post information demonstrating exceeding of the 1.1000 or more than 1 if have not made 1000 posts. If they were telling truth (or more not found in 1 month) then money back. Then zero tolerance after that.

1. less or zero appeals from real bad eggs because there is now risk to them ... before they had no risk
2. chance of a real appeal ...1 month for anyone to find more
3. Real net positive will never be lost
4. everyone gets to find out the truth or far more chance of finding the truth about the person and no more guessing should we feel sorry for them or not.

There are still free appeals to those if it is a total mistake because that will be spotted at the outset. I have not seen any of these total mistake ones as yet. I have only seen 90% of real scammers and 10% I am not sure because how to know if they are really have made no other mistake or just lying hoping we can't find more because they have no punishment for lying right now because nothing more gets taken from them if we find out they are lying.

Copy and pasting is obviously against the rule of the forum there is no better warning than a lay down forewarning many users plagiarise for various reasons
: to increase there post count
: there bounty project requires it
: hunting for merit so they copy a nice article they find in the internet and paste it here.
 Etc

  Just like in the normal frame of law where ignorance is not an excuse no one should say he/she did not know plagiarism is not against the rule it's always important to read up the rules before engaging into a forum.

Plagiarism has been the major reason as to why people get banned well I would also say every one can change if there can be a jail term giving to those found guilty of plagiarism the forum my be losing potential great minds(if they turn a new live) by giving a permanent ban to them.

The reason as to why offender was jailed would be sent to you via email or on offenders account the jail term would prevent offenders from posting but can watch

If after the term has Been served the person is still an unrepentant individual he/she can be completely eradicate from the forum

How about only seriously consider appeal if :
1. The member have good reputation or known to help others
2. They have high rank or/and received lots of merit (earned in correct way)
3. Many members agree to unban. This is should be easy and good way since so far i only see 2 banned member got support from other member to be un-banned

Additionally, escrow some Bitcoin is unnecessary and limit to those who have lots of Bitcoin. Simply remove signature space 1 year - forever is easier solution. If the user only care about earn money, he will leave while actual member will stay and continue being helpful.

Personally, I think there would be no use in applying a fine of 0.5 BTC to copy pasters as they are already very low valued peoples with no personal brains functioning.

If you would not get an appeal( I think we would get none) then it is an unfunctional system with no advantages and you should not expect a sensible appeal from a person about his forum ban if he doesn't know the basic rules of Bitcointalk or any forum in the world which is NO COPY/PASTE.

I personally think a better alternative for the current situation of copy paste would be just sending them a warning about the message for which they are banned (parallelized post ). Also, we can see an update by @theymos about the new message for paralyzed account ban and you can see a suggestion thread here. We can just also add the post link for which the account is banned and this could be the best solution to reduce the copy and paste appeals in meta.

I think coding is a better solution than just putting all the appeal loads on a single person.

We already have that, it's called "Report to moderator". Works quite well.

The "sensible" solution for plagiarism would be this.

a button on every post labeled with" Click me NOW" , takes you to another page where you need to quote the original text, the two texts along with the timestamp run in simple query that checks the integrity of the report by matching the two texts, if it matches , BINGO ! that account gets INSTANT BAN for a limited period of time which equals to his lifetime.

and yes , the button should be available to everybody including newbies so that they can ban higher rank members who copy and paste.

I can tell you this is going to be a 100% plagiarism free forum, as everybody will be watching over everybody else.

and this to me is the ONLY "Sensible" punishment for somebody who steals the words of others and present them as their own.

I don't think so. Free appeals are still needed to rectify mistakes that occasionally happen. And there will always be opportunists using the process either because they're naive, or fishing for better shitposting strategies, or just trolling.

As for the whole financial incentive side of it... you're right, I don't care. And I'm not sure if I'd trust people who do it for money. We already had a case of someone getting framed and that was without financial gain involved.

In this system though you would not be doing anything different you would be finding the culprits same as now. Your job in the system does not change you don't need to be the mod or the reporter for people evading sig ban. You still get to go after the other 100 shitsters.  The actual only difference for you is you will get a split of the fees. Even if you do not care about that it may encourage others to do like you are doing now for their bit of the fees.

Then mods who already have to make the decision after you report and also supply the reasons etc and listen to the appeal will just shove the fees in a cold wallet and keep ledger. They will get their fees too. and not have to listen to so many appeals.

Then other people who want to spy out for sig evasion to get some fees or even - maybe  scripts can be made 3rd party keep an eye on them anyway....but anyone watching them gets a split for finding them..

I agree not a huge amount would want go through this appeals process  but i have seen some legends on the appeals offer to pay 0.25 btc for review. People do get attached to their accounts and are certain they are net positive now.

I mean I agree if theymos opens up an option to ban sigs through the forum console that would be even better.

Also those appeals we are seeing here all the time now they will read the appeals process and just think no chance if they are not 100% sure they are net positives.

I mean not many will apply but we are not bothered about saving many only those that are real enthusiasts and it will cut down on appeals also i think. Most are hoping atm we will not find another bunch of their copy and pastes so they try it on claiming yeah 100% i only did it once or whatever but now they wont appeal at all. If it will cost them 0.5btc and no sig for a year then I think they will not be bothering to even appeal. So meta will get drastic drastic reduction in appeals.

I mean another slightly different idea could be

Appeals process is this - want to appeal and say you only made one or less than 1 in 1000 or some ratio - send 1 btc to mod and if no more are found in 3 months time by anyone on the board then money back. If more cases found then money split between original finder and new finder. Of course a smart original finder could find more already....this is now the risk of the copy and paster.

I think that will cut down on people appealing only done it one time or less than 1.1000

perhaps that could be easier.

That was my first point. There will be no one applying at the 0.5 BTC price. When a new Copper account costs $10-20 you're basically placing a $2000 penalty on honesty - if someone wants to evade a ban they'll just create a new account, and if someone wants to play by the rules then it's way too expensive. For it to make sense it has to cost about as much as Copper membership give or take a few bucks, if you consider sentimental value vs loss of signature vs ban evasion.


It's still a lot of hassle for zero benefit for most people involved. I'd rather spend that time cleaning out 100 other shitposters than babysitting one ex-convict.

That is quite true especially who decides who are the crazy copy and paste shit posters.I guess they would not bother to appeal anyway so perhaps no need to add that exception. If they can buy other accounts for cheaper they will do that anyway.

I agree this only really targets people who really are not spammer and are real enthusiasts who have made a mistake in a 1000 and want to retain their accounts here and their ID here. I don't really care that much about others that dont fit into that bracket anyway. Non enthusiasts can just go spam other forums.

However to the scaling...

1. Do we think there will be that many that apply for this ?
2. The work you do now would be paid in theory ( i know you don't care about that) but others might start helping with financial incentive. This also provides incentive to the mods to escrow and the reporters to keep any eye out for sig ban evaders. I think if anything you will get more people looking for bad guys and watching they stay in line if they are paid from the fees.
3. after the get to go back to normal then they will just get caught again and their usernames will be on the thread prior so go to insta perm ban.

This is not simple and fast at all. You're basically letting plagiarists to buy their banned accounts back from the forum for 0.5 BTC and with strings attached (signature not permitted).

First of all, there is no "customer base" for that. Too expensive and too restrictive for shitposters, who can buy another sig-capable account for far less. Not needed for mistakenly banned users who should win their appeals. This appears to be targeted to the elusive "only plagiarized 1 post out of 1000" demographic, of which I've seen perhaps 1 or 2 examples.

Second, even if the "only plagiarized 1 post out of 1000" is an actual problem that we want to solve and we lower the cost to an affordable level, this is a horrible way of doing it. Somebody needs to be the escrow, somebody needs to watch the signatures, somebody needs to enforce the zero-tolerance policy for each previously banned account. It doesn't scale. Yahoo's solution makes far more sense. Don't copy-paste, not even 1 in 1000.

If theymos could implement an actual enforceable signature ban then I'd be ok with it for certain cases. Better yet, make it a max(500, merit_score) merit penalty and if the score is negative after that - permaban stays. That way it can only be used by high-rank accounts and would automatically kill the signature.

I don't see that happening anytime soon though so why don't we focus on solving the shitposting problem rather than helping shitposters.

And who decides all those exceptions?

I’d much sooner suggest banning for 7 days and/or permaban and charge a 1mBTC fee.

Once a second offence happens then permaban. Although I’m satisfied with the current rules, it’s no problem to me or anyone else who abides by international copyright laws...

With this system there is no review as such apart from the initial one where the copy and paste is discovered really.

If it has changed hands and the copy and paste happened before they bought it that will be the risk you take when buying an account I guess.

Also really you should build your own account from scratch I think.

I did think up a kind of system that was more elaborate to vet the entire histories but was such a lot of work it would need to cost them a fortune in btc to get anyone to do it.

I guess it should be as it was and now is !

Copy and Paste ( plagiarism )  gets you banned as in the rules written !

If you in real life , use a other work for something to get yourself an advantage or make money with it , you will also be punished if someone gets out that it is not your own work !

Best example are pictures , if you use others without permission to use it and they find it out you will punished !

The most reason i guess is that 80 %  on the forum (special new Users ) dont read the rules or know them or dont care about .

Ignorance does not protect against punishment.

Ok so the only solution would still be on a case by case basis. The only problem I would have with allowing any sort of review is who exactly are we reviewing?

How do you know the account has not changed hands multiple times? Or is not involved in a network of cheaters? Do you realize how much work would go into looking into these things?

Hilariousandco most likely does not want the headache of doing the investigative work and neither would anyone else honestly. Unless it's a paying job from the forum administrator, then it may be a possibility.

Okay cool sorry.

Well to be honest I have seen a couple that seems I think deserved a fair chance at another go. They seemed to be mistakes from a while back many years and some of their recent posts were actually very good. I think some people start off here a bit shaky and improve.

I am not just interested in helping copy and pasters at all. I have been called to many posts to help anyone that wants some help.

I just think in this net we are casting it will take down some good eggs and some net positive individuals with it. This is more of a carrot and stick approach to guide people into being net positive rather than a head shot to anyone that steps off the path even for a moment.

@Steamtyme

I wasn't trying to stifle any free speech. They can say anything they want on topic or anything else off topic.

I don't see a point though of turning this thread into pages of people who just say " all plagiarist get insta perm ban" because it makes the conversation for others trying to think up another system much harder.

I read your post and it was a good one. I agree perhaps the rates can be reduced slightly.

Can you point me to the ones that got banned you would give another chance to? I didn't think I missed any hero or legends out because originally I was thinking of a max 1.1000 ratio .... but the reviews and closer scrutiny especially for those with 1000's of posts is a lot to review. This system is quick and fast and could introduce tomorrow.

Let's face it purely financially reward spammers will not appeal so saves time listening to them if they are bad eggs.