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Topic: Lightning Network Observer - page 34. (Read 13552 times)

hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
February 20, 2022, 09:16:01 AM

These little tiny Raspberry Pi PC enclosures are so cute! Cheesy
Sure, what kind of size are we looking at? Would recommend a circular (or triangle) setup with multiple users like @Rath_, BlackHatCoiner and anyone else who wants to join!

i already have an open channel with Rath_
i could contribute 0.005 - but can also provide contributions from 0.01 if necessary Smiley
Sounds good - let's see who else would be interested! Dual-funded or even circular channels are pretty useful, I think.
legendary
Activity: 3262
Merit: 8492
icarus-cards.eu
February 20, 2022, 09:06:24 AM

These little tiny Raspberry Pi PC enclosures are so cute! Cheesy
Sure, what kind of size are we looking at? Would recommend a circular (or triangle) setup with multiple users like @Rath_, BlackHatCoiner and anyone else who wants to join!

i already have an open channel with Rath_
i could contribute 0.005 - but can also provide contributions from 0.01 if necessary Smiley
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
February 20, 2022, 07:07:35 AM
i support the lightning network since a few days with my own node now too and if there are interested guys i would open a channel with some of you Grin


https://twitter.com/cryptocygan/status/1492930549861826563
These little tiny Raspberry Pi PC enclosures are so cute! Cheesy
Sure, what kind of size are we looking at? Would recommend a circular (or triangle) setup with multiple users like @Rath_, BlackHatCoiner and anyone else who wants to join!
legendary
Activity: 3262
Merit: 8492
icarus-cards.eu
February 20, 2022, 04:40:01 AM
i support the lightning network since a few days with my own node now too and if there are interested guys i would open a channel with some of you Grin


https://twitter.com/cryptocygan/status/1492930549861826563
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
February 14, 2022, 07:55:16 AM
When I listen to Jack Mallers I always feel that thrill of being alive in the exact moment when a new financial sistem it is being bootstrapped and being put in place for the whole human kind:


Quote

WBD460 - Orange Pilling the IMF with @jackmallers. We discuss:
- Conversations with Bezos and Facebook
- The famous peanut story
- How #Bitcoin BTC  levels the playing field
- The global implications of Lightning
whatbitcoindid.com/podcast/orange…




90 minutes worth listening to.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3132
February 08, 2022, 01:49:56 PM
As I don't want to help you derail another topic, I replied in the Is LN Bitcoin? franky1: About scaling, on-chain and off-chain thread. If you are interested in continuing the discussion, please reply there.
legendary
Activity: 4270
Merit: 4534
February 08, 2022, 11:20:53 AM
1. people can use invoice uri that contain ip or tor addresses.
your reliance on your wallet having a dns bootstrap is a privacy concern.. for YOU
the 'convenience' of not needing ip/tor addresses in an invoice. is then the privacy loss by preferring a network map


2. you think the only messages involved in a LN are
node announce
channel_update
update_add_htlc
update_fulfill_htlc,
update_fail_htlc,
update_fail_malformed_htlc
commitment_signed
plus a few others.
YOU think there are only under a dozen message types and YOU think all payment messages involve "update_add_htlc"

in other topics i showed you there are like 500 different message types(spec compliant) and upto 65,000 custom, and each of those types can be used for a multitude of things
even simple messages like ping and pong can add payloads of different information, well outside of your "update_add_htlc" mantra where you think everything is done inside

3. maybe the many ways many wallets do it, is not spec compliant to YOUR wallet. but your wallet after all is not interested in privacy, hense why you think your wallet is limited to only a dozen message types.

4. when i go private it appears to you as "trampolining" and your map becomes broke because you cant see C. thus you if you were Z could not arrange a payment to A via your DNS bootstrap.

but other people with other wallets could. because they dont just create a route based on some bootstrap map, but by actually talking to peers

EG W does not tell X about C because WC is private. so X cant tell y and Y cannot tell Z .
so you as Z will just see Z-Y-X-W but not -C..
yet actually talking outside of the 'channel_announce' and 'channel_update' you can actually walk a path using other methods.


5. funny part is. if you really wanted to do some positive real feature promoting of LN. you could realise that the lack of a consensus means that LN does not need default, forced, public compliance. but hey, you prefer the forced default public compliance that has a 70% fail rate.. strange
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3132
February 08, 2022, 11:02:57 AM
if you speak to rath_ he will tell you his LN wallet does not have privacy, his wallet announces his channel balance changes to a central DNS/explorer/whole network so that everyone can see whats available to make routes.

Oh, wow. Slow down for a moment. I have never said that.

You should take a look at at least one paper describing the probing attack on the Lightning Network.

LN nodes gossip about channels available for routing and their total capacities. To issue a (multi-hop) payment, the sender creates a route based on its local knowledge of the graph. As local channel balances are not public, payments often fail due to insufficient balance at an intermediary hop. In that case, the payment is attempted along multiple routes until it succeeds. This constitutes a privacy-efficiency tradeoff: hidden balances improve privacy but hinder routing efficiency.

As for the "central DNS", you are ignoring the fact that nodes use DNS bootstrapping (just like Bitcoin nodes) to discover peers. Lightning nodes talk not only to their channel partners but also to other participants of the network. You fail to acknowledge that even though you can easily check it on your own by either setting up your own node or running a non-custodial wallet like Electrum.

oh and rath_ thinks even if i set my C to be private, he can still see
A-B-C-D-E
       \
       W-X-Y-Z

all because HIS wallet defaults and forces his channels to be public so he does not understand that privacy was and is possible.

Yes, I could still see WX, XY and YZ channels as you assume that they are public.

and instead can build routes without testing them. the flaw of this convenience of saving a few hundred bytes of data. is ofcourse lack of privacy, and also the reason he had a 70% fail rate for payments because he wasnt testing routes before trying to push payments

There is no other way to test if the payment will go through other than to actually send it. You fail to prove which "private message" in our opinion is actually supposed to do that. You will very likely come up with another non spec-complaint message.

For example, we suspect which edges might be able to forward a payment because their capacity seems big enough. But we can’t be certain unless we try it out or ask the channel owners directly. Even if we were able to ask the channel owners directly, their balance might change by the time we have asked others, computed a path, constructed an onion and send it along
legendary
Activity: 4270
Merit: 4534
February 08, 2022, 10:02:27 AM
Can Chainalysis trace every transaction in Lightning? How can users add more privacy?

if you speak to rath_ he will tell you his LN wallet does not have privacy, his wallet announces his channel balance changes to a central DNS/explorer/whole network so that everyone can see whats available to make routes.

where analysis can then watch the movements as the updates happen

LN originally worked differently using private messages. (still does if you avoid rath_'s prefered wallet)
here is rath highlighting how he views his wallets function of everything is public

The Lightning Network solves this problem by implementing a gossip protocol. Gossip protocols are typical for peer-to-peer (P2P) networks and allow nodes to share information with the whole network with just a few direct connections to peers. Lightning nodes open encrypted peer-to-peer connections to each other and share (gossip) information that they have received from other peers. As soon as a node wants to share some information, for example, about a newly created channel, it sends a message to all its peers. Upon receiving a message, a node decides if the received message was novel and, if so, forwards the information to its peers. In this way, if the peer-to-peer network is well connected, all new information that is necessary for the operation of the network will eventually be propagated to all other peers.

By default, Lightning channels are public and they advertise themselves through "channel_announcement" and "channel_update".

You can use Lightning explorers like amboss.space or 1ml.com to see information extracted from the gossip protocol for each public node. Here's my node. You can see all of my channels, including their fee settings which are necessary to construct the routing path. Private channels are generally not used for payment routing as the invoice would have to include routing hints.

Even a lightwallet like Electrum forces their users to wait for the local graph to sync through the gossip protocol if they don't want to be able to connect only to trampoline nodes, which can take care of the path calculation for the user if they are willing to compromise their privacy.

note.
other LN wallets(not like rath_'s) do not have channels set to public by default, do not send announcements to the whole network. and it only sends it to the 'tree' of peered nodes. if they choose to.

notice the use of words "forces users" . "public by default" .. nasty stuff

the way LN was "promised2 was privacy where for instance

Quote

imagine i was carol(C)..
A>B>Cmy node1                             Zmy node3

                            my node3  C>D>E

(A)lice can pay (Z)oe even though A only has a network map tree of B>C (where i (via node1) decided NOT to respond about my node3 paths of W>X>Y>Z)

yep i dont actually need to have a tree linking all channels announced publicly, via a peer pass the parcel of linked peer channels from start to end. nor need to announce to some DNS or explorer site

yep Z can all pay A. even if the Z does not have a network map tree of ABCWXYZ. and only has a map of ZYXWC

but in rath_'s view his wallet broadcasts everything meaning if he had the same set up.

the whole network would see

A-B-C-D-E
       \
       W-X-Y-Z

oh and rath_ thinks even if i set my C to be private, he can still see
A-B-C-D-E
       \
       W-X-Y-Z

all because HIS wallet defaults and forces his channels to be public so he does not understand that privacy was and is possible.

the other thing is  the 'convenience' of 'all public' (default, forced) means he does not need to send private messages to test routes. and instead can build routes without testing them. the flaw of this convenience of saving a few hundred bytes of data. is ofcourse lack of privacy, and also the reason he had a 70% fail rate for payments because he wasnt testing routes before trying to push payments
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 5146
Whimsical Pants
February 08, 2022, 09:44:01 AM
Works like a charm, too...

Hmm.  I wonder what's gonna happen now?

Wait, I know!  I am gonna figure out where the Cash App nodes are and make some channels...  Bigguns.  With big ass chewy fees so they can pay me back a little for the corn I've bought from them...

Anyone knows what the CASH APP nodes are?  



Thinking this through... I could see this channel getting drained of 0.16BTC really fast.  So all I gotta figure out is how much do the fees need to be justify having to reload them over and over...  Or even drop them and create new ones.  Hmm.  HMM!
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
January 11, 2022, 08:10:49 AM
Cash App integrated Lightning Network on their platform:



Apparently Block’s mobile app has just been updated and now users are anabled to use LN to perform BTC payments more quickly and cheaper payments.

Jack Dorsey has been a long time fan of LN, and Block  announced the intention to integrate LN months ago: we are finally seeing some results in production!
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
December 20, 2021, 02:59:25 AM
WasabiWallet is giving a grant for research teams to design a privacy-focused Lightning Network wallet, https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/1-btc-ln-privacy-grant/

It’s a very good counter-defense against Chainalysis’ attempts of breaking privacy, and using Lightning for surveillance. The grant isn’t very big, but it’s a good way to start in my opinion.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
December 16, 2021, 07:09:49 AM

Quote
Today, Chainalysis announced product support for the Lightning Network, a layer 2 protocol built on the Bitcoin blockchain that allows faster, cheaper transactions. With Lightning, small, recurring transactions that wouldn’t be economical to carry out on the blockchain due to transaction fees become feasible, enabling new commercial use cases for Bitcoin.
https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/lightning-network-support/


Quote

Soon, Chainalysis will support Lightning Network transaction monitoring in KYT! Staying compliant with regulations will be vital as the second layer protocol is adopted and we’re excited to be the first in the industry to offer this support.


https://twitter.com/chainalysis/status/1469317238893289475

It’s not “support” for the Lightning Network. It’s actually surveillance, pretending to help Lightning “stay compliant with regulations”. Although, Lightning users can thank Chainalysis for the liquidity. Cool

Can Chainalysis trace every transaction in Lightning? How can users add more privacy?
legendary
Activity: 3262
Merit: 8492
icarus-cards.eu
December 10, 2021, 03:57:01 PM

Quote
Today, Chainalysis announced product support for the Lightning Network, a layer 2 protocol built on the Bitcoin blockchain that allows faster, cheaper transactions. With Lightning, small, recurring transactions that wouldn’t be economical to carry out on the blockchain due to transaction fees become feasible, enabling new commercial use cases for Bitcoin.
https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/lightning-network-support/
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
December 06, 2021, 04:09:49 PM
Coindesk released  a new podcast about Lightning network: Exploring Bitcoin’s Lightning Network

Quote
The Lightning Network is arguably the most anticipated scaling solution for Bitcoin to date. Why isn’t everyone using it?

Quote
The Lightning Network is arguably the most anticipated scaling solution for Bitcoin to date. Why isn’t everyone using it?
“Speaking of Bitcoin” hosts Adam B. Levine, Andreas M. Antonopoulos and Stephanie Murphy are joined by Rene Pickhardt, Bitcoin and Lightning Network Developer. The four lead a conversation on the still in development yet rapidly growing Lightning Network. It’s a second-layer network that enables fast, secure, private and inexpensive payments that don’t make sense to store on bitcoin’s base layer. But while that might sound ideal, it’s not simple in practice. A scrappy community of companies and developers have been pushing the tech consistently forward as the number of hard problems still to solve ticks down.
Even as early as we are, Lightning has proven to be a radical improvement on the user experience of bitcoin. On the bitcoin network, fees vary but typically range from $1–5 and complete with confirmation in an average of ten minutes. With Lightning, fees and transaction times drop dramatically: the transaction fees are generally 1/100th or 1/10th of a penny and take just seconds.
If the improvements of Lightning are clear, why isn’t everyone using it today? Listen to hear more about the challenges and solutions coming to this rapidly-evolving aspect of bitcoin.
A good, non technical listening if you have a spare hour.
 

legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
November 30, 2021, 01:59:11 AM
Without running a Lightning node, what is the easiest/best way, and what apps should be used, if a person wants to open a private channel with a routing node, send the coins to himself through Lightning, then close channel to confirm onchain. Asking for a friend. Cool
Why would you want to even do that? As a mixing alternative?


Call it a mixing alternative, a search for an alternative utility for the Lightning Network, or simply just another new way to increase Bitcoin’s anon-set and non-KYC UTXOs. It helps LN, and it incentivizes the users of LN.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 5146
Whimsical Pants
November 29, 2021, 03:57:51 PM
Agree with Rath.  You could do this with any non custodial wallet. 

But for what your friend wants?  I will suggest this.

Use two wallets:

1.  Send On-Chain bitcoin to Wallet of Satoshi
2.  Send a lightning transaction to Muun wallet.  (You may need to send more than one to squeeze out as many sats as possible, many wallets will only allow you to send a percentage of your total to save sats for the fee)
3.  "Withdraw" with an On Chain transaction.

Now... some details. 

-You can change the two above wallets to any other two that would work.  I just know that both of those will allow on and off chain transactions from your balance.
-WoS is custodial.  This implies counter party risk.  But it also ensures your sats come from "somewhere else".
-CoinOS.io is another good choice and lets you float between BTC, L-BTC,and lightning with one single balance. This would allow sending to az series of LBTC wallets and back to CoinOS if you  like in the middle of your trips.  Liquid will allow you to use Monero like Confidential Transactions, and you could use morethan one CoinOS account and TOR if you REALLY want to push it...

This whole exercise has made me think about the nature of layer 2 systems, and how they will actually end up doing some fairly interesting UTXO obfuscation.  Also, i had never considered that funds that join and leave a "layer 2" *could* also end up "dirty" without the user knowing.  Eventually this will probably make it to court or some other official.  Lightning's privacy is going to be an interesting twist (as will Liquids)
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3132
November 29, 2021, 12:38:21 PM
Without running a Lightning node, what is the easiest/best way, and what apps should be used, if a person wants to open a private channel with a routing node, send the coins to himself through Lightning, then close channel to confirm onchain. Asking for a friend. Cool

Any non-custodial mobile wallet should do the trick. Most of them, if not all, create only private channels. I am certain that Eclair Mobile does so. You can download the testnet version, open a channel to some random node and try looking it up on 1ml.com/testnet. You shouldn't be able to find it.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
November 29, 2021, 10:08:19 AM
Without running a Lightning node, what is the easiest/best way, and what apps should be used, if a person wants to open a private channel with a routing node, send the coins to himself through Lightning, then close channel to confirm onchain. Asking for a friend. Cool
Why would you want to even do that? As a mixing alternative?
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
November 29, 2021, 09:32:38 AM
Without running a Lightning node, what is the easiest/best way, and what apps should be used, if a person wants to open a private channel with a routing node, send the coins to himself through Lightning, then close channel to confirm onchain. Asking for a friend. Cool
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