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Topic: Lightning Network Observer - page 36. (Read 13552 times)

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
October 05, 2021, 07:03:44 PM
#88
Arcane Technologies Posted a very interesting piece of research:



https://twitter.com/arcaneresearch/status/1445442967582302213?s=21


There are so many interesting graphs and updates.
 I will post only one here and it's about Network Centralisation, a widely debated (negative) feature of the LN, everyone has been discussing about, even amongst the authors of the report (Christian Decker wrote about it a few times ago)



Quote
The figure above illustrates the average clustering of the Lightning Network. A value of 1 indicates that nodes form cliques. In layman’s terms, a clique is a closed group of nodes, not reaching the broad network. A value of 0 means that the average node is a hub, with none of its peers being connected. The average clustering coefficient has trended down since February 2019, aligning with the growth of cut channels in the same period, witnessed in Figure 22 (previous page). The declining clustering coefficient indicates that peers on the Lightning Network make increasingly more rational decisions when opening new channels. In general, channels now tend to be opened with nodes that are connected to a subset of nodes, which the channel creator has not opened a channel with. The opening of this channel gives the channel creator a route to this subset of nodes and the ability to route transactions to these nodes. Given these nodes also tend to be connected to another subset of nodes, the channel creator gets the ability to route a transaction more efficiently on the broader network. While this increases the importance of hubs and increases the percentage share of cut channels, it also contributes to making the Lightning Network a more efficient and well-connected payment network.






legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
September 29, 2021, 06:55:57 PM
#87
Lightning labs is summarising latest LN developement we wintessed this last summer months

The Summer of Lightning: Reaching the Tipping Point 🏔


Quote
Welcome to the September edition of the Lightning Lab, a newsletter filled with Lightning Network updates, community coverage, and, of course, memes! In this issue, we discuss the massive amount of adoption that’s taken place this summer — from El Salvador to Starbucks to Twitter — all thanks to our community of Lightning startups and developers. Number of People Go Up! 📈

It's a good recap, covering pretty much all the aspects we already encountered in this thread over the last weeks.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
September 26, 2021, 05:35:27 PM
#86
Another day, another Network Capacity ATH.


https://twitter.com/kerooke/status/1441952895486726145?s=21


This graph is seriously becoming vertical!

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
September 25, 2021, 05:04:05 AM
#85
Observing multiple articles observing Lightning Network Growth:


BITCOIN LIGHTNING NETWORK CHANNEL CAPACITY HITS ANOTHER ALL-TIME HIGH


This is interesting also because it is a free issue of a paid newsletter.
It's always interesting to see how the paid content looks like when dealing with those topics, where critical and technical journalism is required to have effective reporting and provide some added value to the reader.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 177
September 22, 2021, 03:24:17 AM
#84
Wonderful news!

Looks like it is not a news at all. It’s a tweet from 2019 I totally overlooked.

Strangely enough, the tweet from an Italian bitcoiner that relaunched this and originated this post has strangely disappeared. Wink
Embarrassment, embarrassment everywhere.
the news is probably that it goes to print soonish?! at least that is what i heard recently  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
September 22, 2021, 02:45:42 AM
#83
Wonderful news!

Looks like it is not a news at all. It’s a tweet from 2019 I totally overlooked.

Strangely enough, the tweet from an Italian bitcoiner that relaunched this and originated this post has strangely disappeared. Wink
Embarrassment, embarrassment everywhere.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
September 21, 2021, 07:44:22 PM
#82
My understanding is this: the activity of my LN nodes has grown so much, that the channel management made me spend a huge amount of money in on-chain fees. If LN didn't exist I would have never spent those fees, so probably LN is helping new business emerge, lowering dramatically the marginal cost of a single transaction, allowing for a whole new class of businesses being run over LN.
I understand it like that as well. Alex runs a big routing node, one of the largest as far as I remember. By paying those fees, he saved tons of people a multitude of that amount in on-chain fees. If LN wouldn't exist, he would probably just have HODLed the amount that he locked into channels and would thus have paid no fees at all.

Wonderful news!


https://twitter.com/aantonop/status/1166762645736738816?s=21

As per Andreas, I bet he's trying the already known framework of rigorous technical writing coupled with easy tu understand explanations.
I am skeptical of the longevity of the book, given the rate of change of the technology of the LN.
I'm excited as well, was looking forward to the book for a long time and checked GitHub from time to time to look up things and see how the state is. Now I'm not sure if they're rewriting it from scratch or just finalizing it together.
The rapid development of LN is surely going to be a challenge. After all, Andreas likes (and I as a reader enjoy) code / command examples to try out etc., which will be difficult if the clients change much. It works well for Bitcoin Core, but not sure about lnd and c-lightning.

I also remember Rene was having big difficulties finding a good paying Bitcoin job, while he's super knowledgeable, so I'm glad to see he has a cool Bitcoin project on his hands now Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
September 21, 2021, 07:54:05 AM
#81
The other day I hit the hard wall of reality: I didn't get what Bos was talking about:


https://twitter.com/alexbosworth/status/1439605208292593667?s=20

My understanding is this: the activity of my LN nodes has grown so much, that the channel management made me spend a huge amount of money in on-chain fees. If LN didn't exist I would have never spent those fees, so probably LN is helping new business emerge, lowering dramatically the marginal cost of a single transaction, allowing for a whole new class of businesses being run over LN.





Wonderful news!


https://twitter.com/aantonop/status/1166762645736738816?s=21

As per Andreas, I bet he's trying the already known framework of rigorous technical writing coupled with easy tu understand explanations.
I am skeptical of the longevity of the book, given the rate of change of the technology of the LN.


As per roastbeef, hope his writing is not as fast of his dialogue As a foreign speaker, I found roastbeef almost unintelligible while speaking. Something like I need to listen to at 0.5x on Youtube.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 177
September 17, 2021, 05:36:03 AM
#80
I'm beginning to wonder if the growth in Bitcoin Lightning Network transactions correlates to the slump in mempool transactions (and their fees) that we have seen in recent months.

It would explain why the price has stabilized while the number of transactions in the mempool has at the same time appeared to stall.
not according to murch:

source: https://twitter.com/murchandamus/status/1438521484910075919
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
September 17, 2021, 05:22:22 AM
#79
No reply? From anyone? Let me explain. Like the block rewards/fee revenue for miners that should be high enough to maintain Bitcoin’s security, and it success, the Lightning Network’s “liquidity providers” should also he incentivized for the opportunity cost on their capital, to maintain the growth and success of LN. How would this be possible? Charge higher fees.

It was already answered above. Basically yes, more fees or just simply more transactions at a low fee, could probably cover the electricity and channel opening costs.

Keep in mind opening a channel isn’t as crazy expensive as you might think, after all it’s just a normal Bitcoin tx that currently costs <1$ to get mined.


That was not the only point. The main point is actually the opportunity costs, which might be OK during a bull market. But during a bear market, if someone/a company/service opens 10 Bitcoins or more for different channels, they will be taking a loss, missing out on other opportunities for their capital.

Quote

I know node operators that have channels open for years at a time and routed thousands of transactions in that time.


I believe it can only be sustained through incentivization.
legendary
Activity: 3696
Merit: 2219
💲🏎️💨🚓
September 17, 2021, 03:22:53 AM
#78
Just a few day's old news:
...
I am wondering how the exponential growth of these last months changed that scenario. I asked him on Twitter, I'll update you if he makes himself heard.

I'm beginning to wonder if the growth in Bitcoin Lightning Network transactions correlates to the slump in mempool transactions (and their fees) that we have seen in recent months.

It would explain why the price has stabilized while the number of transactions in the mempool has at the same time appeared to stall.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
September 16, 2021, 06:09:55 PM
#77
Just afew Day's old news:


https://twitter.com/btc_ln/status/1438017446330261506?s=21

This news was relaunched also by Bitcoin magazine:

PAXFUL INTEGRATES THE BITCOIN LIGHTNING NETWORK

Quote
Peer-to-peer bitcoin exchange Paxful announced that its platform has fully integrated the Lightning Network, Bitcoin's second-layer scaling solution. The firm, one of the leading peer-to-peer trading platforms worldwide, will now allow its more than seven million users to transact bitcoin across the globe more quickly and cheaply.

This recalled an old tweet by Paolo Ardoino:



https://twitter.com/paoloardoino/status/1404724609602232323?s=21

I am wondering how the exponential growth of these last months changed that scenario. I asked him on Twitter, I'll update you if he makes himself heard.

hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
September 16, 2021, 08:21:34 AM
#76
No reply? From anyone? Let me explain. Like the block rewards/fee revenue for miners that should be high enough to maintain Bitcoin’s security, and it success, the Lightning Network’s “liquidity providers” should also he incentivized for the opportunity cost on their capital, to maintain the growth and success of LN. How would this be possible? Charge higher fees.
It was already answered above. Basically yes, more fees or just simply more transactions at a low fee, could probably cover the electricity and channel opening costs.
Keep in mind opening a channel isn’t as crazy expensive as you might think, after all it’s just a normal Bitcoin tx that currently costs <1$ to get mined.

I know node operators that have channels open for years at a time and routed thousands of transactions in that time.

What I mean with more transactions: even with a limited number and size of channels, if they’re routing stuff back and forth hundreds of times per day instead of once or twice per week (like on my node at the moment), with a maybe 1-2 sats routing fee, instead of getting 5 sats a week you’re looking at thousands of sats per week.
Routing more transactions doesn’t consume (significantly) more power or need more / bigger channels, so contrary to the underlying blockchain it scales much better and has kind of a fixed running cost with increased revenue the more it is used.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
September 16, 2021, 07:29:46 AM
#75
No reply? From anyone? Let me explain. Like the block rewards/fee revenue for miners that should be high enough to maintain Bitcoin’s security, and it success, the Lightning Network’s “liquidity providers” should also he incentivized for the opportunity cost on their capital, to maintain the growth and success of LN. How would this be possible? Charge higher fees.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
September 14, 2021, 04:28:40 AM
#74

But do you believe node operators would run their nodes altruistically by taking fee rates lower and lower, or do you believe they will eventually look for incentives? Because opening/funding channels require capital, which is limited, resources to maintain hardware costs which is also limited, and technical knowledge/labor maintenance.

I think the hobbyist class nodes will sometimes be run altruistically.  But I believe most of the professionally run nodes will look to make profits.  The thing is the lightning model allows for ways to make money as a node that the base model does not, really.  AND running a lightning node is a very different model to make sats than running a mining rig.

For example, a wallet provider like Acinq can change for various services with their Phoenix wallet. Channel setup fees, and then a bigger first hop fee since they will be the first node on any route.

Bank/merchant nodes are incentivized for customers to use their nodes to save them on merchant fees (VISA).  So they have like 3% baked in before they charge a fee at all.  So I could see those being cheaper.

I think there are tons of things to see play out here.  How often does a particular use case need to settle to the base chain for example?  The more it does, the more I would expect those nodes to charge.

One other thing that makes lightning different.  The "low fee" is not the only advantage it offers the buyer and seller.  Instant settlement is also a key benefit to a small retail merchant.  Like McDonalds in ES.  Seeing the terminal go green means the money has changed hands, and the deal is done.  The base layer does not have that property.


I believe that the main issue of consideration is that it is a fact that there will be opportunity costs for opening channels, and funding with with a scarce/limited resource. Bitcoin is fundamentally a form of “capital”. Capital usage should be earning, not losing?
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 5146
Whimsical Pants
September 13, 2021, 09:47:12 AM
#73

But do you believe node operators would run their nodes altruistically by taking fee rates lower and lower, or do you believe they will eventually look for incentives? Because opening/funding channels require capital, which is limited, resources to maintain hardware costs which is also limited, and technical knowledge/labor maintenance.

I think the hobbyist class nodes will sometimes be run altruistically.  But I believe most of the professionally run nodes will look to make profits.  The thing is the lightning model allows for ways to make money as a node that the base model does not, really.  AND running a lightning node is a very different model to make sats than running a mining rig.

For example, a wallet provider like Acinq can change for various services with their Phoenix wallet. Channel setup fees, and then a bigger first hop fee since they will be the first node on any route.

Bank/merchant nodes are incentivized for customers to use their nodes to save them on merchant fees (VISA).  So they have like 3% baked in before they charge a fee at all.  So I could see those being cheaper.

I think there are tons of things to see play out here.  How often does a particular use case need to settle to the base chain for example?  The more it does, the more I would expect those nodes to charge.

One other thing that makes lightning different.  The "low fee" is not the only advantage it offers the buyer and seller.  Instant settlement is also a key benefit to a small retail merchant.  Like McDonalds in ES.  Seeing the terminal go green means the money has changed hands, and the deal is done.  The base layer does not have that property.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
September 13, 2021, 08:17:40 AM
#72
Shower thought for Lightning Network Observers, will Lightning fees be cheaper and cheaper as the network grows, and its participants increase? Or will it be higher and higher?

I believe it’s another important question before we assume anything about the Lightning Network.

I have given this some thought.

Things depend on what we call a participant and how the distribution of them looks.  Here are the sorts of participants as I see them:

1.  Bank nodes
These may actually end up BEING banks, but we will also see Lightning Service Providers in this role.  Examples are the Wallet of Satoshi node.  Or the IBEX node which I believe is processing the Chivo payments.  These nodes are big, and deeply connected.  They are the scary "banks" that "Blockstream has replaced the miners with".  And they are correctly identified as hubs.  These are the ones the big blockers will point to when they are arguing that lightning centralizes control of Bitcoin.  In the future I believe actual BANKS will also have nodes like this.  Western Union, and Wells fargo better be spinning up BP/LNP nodes RIGHT NOW if they want to remain relevant.  Rarely would an individual run a node like this, but Alex Bosworth's node probably classifies.  I personally do not see them as evil, or negative unless they take over the entire network, which I think is unlikely.  These nodes can see large traffic in both directions.

2. Merchant nodes
These would be big "takers" of liquidity like Bitrefil and other places bitcoin is SPENT.  Eventually, companies like Starbucks might end up spinning up their own nodes once they realize this is a better return for them than having a service provider handle it.  Hard to say... some businesses will likely run their own, but for a while I imagine many businesses that TAKE bitcoin will use the services of an LSP.  These nodes will also likely be BIG and well connected HUBS.  Eventually I envision large retailers like grocery stores, and big box places running their own nodes just because of the amount of money moved around as well as thin margins.  They also have an incentive to be able to capture the data of their customers directly. "2%off if you are connected to our node!"  It could be advantageous for merchants to have a direct connection to customer nodes. These nodes will see more incoming than outgoing traffic.  I can even see big merchants becoming LSPs.  Your grocery store also becomes your one of your banks so to speak.

3.  Non custodial LSP nodes 
These are unique.  Wallet makers like Breez, Phoenix and Muun makes apps that allow users to run Neutrino nodes on clients like phones.  These wallets currently handle all lightning stuff in the background.  They open a channel (or more?) on behalf of the customer.  Presumably they are using their own nodes which are sort of a subset of the #1 nodes up there.  Again, these are well connected HUBS.  But the users are not really nodes but dead ends on the network.  The business model for these LSPs will be to charge fees on the first hop.

4.  Hobbiest/Pro routing nodes
This is what I run.  This is a generally smaller node with strategic targeted connections to the network.  They can be run for several reasons.  A computer hobbyist with a rPi will run them.  Self-sovereign bitcoinners that want to "be their own bank" and preserve their privacy might run them.  Idealists who want to keep bitcoin as decentralized as possible might run them.  I think they are quite important.  These are the nodes that keep the network from ONLY being run on commercial grade nodes and captured.  We might be motivated by making a little profit for routing, or like me motivated to provide low/zero cost connectivity between 1,2 and 3 as well as the ability for user to user connections.  I personally connect to several of the above nodes as well as rings of peers to keep the network as distributed as possible and drive fees down.  It is hard to imagine that this will ever be more than a minority percentage of the network, in connectivity, and liquidity.  But i do think enough of us will have a palpable effect on the overall network.  We are the X degrees of separation that will route around the big powerful hubs, thereby forcing them to be better network citizens.

5.  Dead end users
This could be the majority of users. These are users who use a custodial wallet (arguably not really lightning users at all, but customers of lightning businesses), or a non-custodial wallet that does not route at all.  So these are the dead end spokes on the hubs in 1, and 3 (and maybe 4?).  Since they do not route payments they do not really have an effect on the network other than providing velocity and liquidity for the routing nodes to handle.  These "nodes" will handle way more outbound transactions, but will also process "Venmo" type user/user payments as well as refunds.

To your point, I think #4 is the lynchpin for how fees end up working.  If there are enough of us providing low fee connectivity I think the cost for payments could be kept very low or even free for the archetypal "coffee transaction".  Small transactions from customers to businesses, or from user to user could find lightning pathways that cost very little and do not even have to touch some of the hubs.  I would guess we see the hubs being involved in transactions that are big enough that it becomes hard to find pathways between the idealists.  But my node has enough inbound and outbound liquidity that I could route payments approaching $10kUSD at today's prices.

Anyway.. it is VERY interesting in my opinion... and we are still in the infant stages of it.  It will be fun to watch! 


But do you believe node operators would run their nodes altruistically by taking fee rates lower and lower, or do you believe they will eventually look for incentives? Because opening/funding channels require capital, which is limited, resources to maintain hardware costs which is also limited, and technical knowledge/labor maintenance.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3132
September 12, 2021, 07:56:51 PM
#71
What's the state of splicing again? [...] Is it just a concept or implemented / experimental stage?

It is still a draft. I wouldn't expect it anytime soon. The developers seems to be busy polishing the v2 open protocol.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
September 12, 2021, 05:28:16 PM
#70
That's the problem which splicing is supposed to address.
What's the state of splicing again?
https://lightning.readthedocs.io/search.html?q=splice&check_keywords=yes&area=default# yields no results. Is it just a concept or implemented / experimental stage?
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3132
September 12, 2021, 04:53:12 PM
#69
Just a question: do you know why c-lightning only allows 1 channel between partners? Design decision? Limitation due to some networking library...?

It's a design choice. See this Github issue. There are a few reasons.

Well, I'd argue against that: If I have a small channel to someone and want to 'enlarge' it, closing and reopening causes even more gossip than just opening a new one..

That's the problem which splicing is supposed to address.
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