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Topic: Lightning Network Observer - page 38. (Read 13809 times)

hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
September 10, 2021, 01:48:44 PM
#53
I would guess we see the hubs being involved in transactions that are big enough that it becomes hard to find pathways between the idealists.  But my node has enough inbound and outbound liquidity that I could route payments approaching $10kUSD at today's prices.
A very interesting point to consider: us little hobbyist idealist node operators that open a few 1M satoshi channels here and there, that like in your case can route a couple thousand $ right now, will be able to route hundreds of thousands as the price of Bitcoin increases.

So even without new channels, without new Bitcoin-denominated liquidity, the $-denominated liquidity increases over time.

This means even if we now just connect each other through lots of - at the moment - small channels and see little activity and routing going on, the nodes' importance and abilities will rise without even touching them simply by the Bitcoin price rising.

That's why I think especially the 'idealist node operators' who started their operation early, will stay relevant and will be able to compete with future 'bank nodes' or 'merchant nodes'.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 5146
Note the unconventional cAPITALIZATION!
September 10, 2021, 09:02:55 AM
#52
Shower thought for Lightning Network Observers, will Lightning fees be cheaper and cheaper as the network grows, and its participants increase? Or will it be higher and higher?

I believe it’s another important question before we assume anything about the Lightning Network.

I have given this some thought.

Things depend on what we call a participant and how the distribution of them looks.  Here are the sorts of participants as I see them:

1.  Bank nodes
These may actually end up BEING banks, but we will also see Lightning Service Providers in this role.  Examples are the Wallet of Satoshi node.  Or the IBEX node which I believe is processing the Chivo payments.  These nodes are big, and deeply connected.  They are the scary "banks" that "Blockstream has replaced the miners with".  And they are correctly identified as hubs.  These are the ones the big blockers will point to when they are arguing that lightning centralizes control of Bitcoin.  In the future I believe actual BANKS will also have nodes like this.  Western Union, and Wells fargo better be spinning up BP/LNP nodes RIGHT NOW if they want to remain relevant.  Rarely would an individual run a node like this, but Alex Bosworth's node probably classifies.  I personally do not see them as evil, or negative unless they take over the entire network, which I think is unlikely.  These nodes can see large traffic in both directions.

2. Merchant nodes
These would be big "takers" of liquidity like Bitrefil and other places bitcoin is SPENT.  Eventually, companies like Starbucks might end up spinning up their own nodes once they realize this is a better return for them than having a service provider handle it.  Hard to say... some businesses will likely run their own, but for a while I imagine many businesses that TAKE bitcoin will use the services of an LSP.  These nodes will also likely be BIG and well connected HUBS.  Eventually I envision large retailers like grocery stores, and big box places running their own nodes just because of the amount of money moved around as well as thin margins.  They also have an incentive to be able to capture the data of their customers directly. "2%off if you are connected to our node!"  It could be advantageous for merchants to have a direct connection to customer nodes. These nodes will see more incoming than outgoing traffic.  I can even see big merchants becoming LSPs.  Your grocery store also becomes your one of your banks so to speak.

3.  Non custodial LSP nodes 
These are unique.  Wallet makers like Breez, Phoenix and Muun makes apps that allow users to run Neutrino nodes on clients like phones.  These wallets currently handle all lightning stuff in the background.  They open a channel (or more?) on behalf of the customer.  Presumably they are using their own nodes which are sort of a subset of the #1 nodes up there.  Again, these are well connected HUBS.  But the users are not really nodes but dead ends on the network.  The business model for these LSPs will be to charge fees on the first hop.

4.  Hobbiest/Pro routing nodes
This is what I run.  This is a generally smaller node with strategic targeted connections to the network.  They can be run for several reasons.  A computer hobbyist with a rPi will run them.  Self-sovereign bitcoinners that want to "be their own bank" and preserve their privacy might run them.  Idealists who want to keep bitcoin as decentralized as possible might run them.  I think they are quite important.  These are the nodes that keep the network from ONLY being run on commercial grade nodes and captured.  We might be motivated by making a little profit for routing, or like me motivated to provide low/zero cost connectivity between 1,2 and 3 as well as the ability for user to user connections.  I personally connect to several of the above nodes as well as rings of peers to keep the network as distributed as possible and drive fees down.  It is hard to imagine that this will ever be more than a minority percentage of the network, in connectivity, and liquidity.  But i do think enough of us will have a palpable effect on the overall network.  We are the X degrees of separation that will route around the big powerful hubs, thereby forcing them to be better network citizens.

5.  Dead end users
This could be the majority of users. These are users who use a custodial wallet (arguably not really lightning users at all, but customers of lightning businesses), or a non-custodial wallet that does not route at all.  So these are the dead end spokes on the hubs in 1, and 3 (and maybe 4?).  Since they do not route payments they do not really have an effect on the network other than providing velocity and liquidity for the routing nodes to handle.  These "nodes" will handle way more outbound transactions, but will also process "Venmo" type user/user payments as well as refunds.

To your point, I think #4 is the lynchpin for how fees end up working.  If there are enough of us providing low fee connectivity I think the cost for payments could be kept very low or even free for the archetypal "coffee transaction".  Small transactions from customers to businesses, or from user to user could find lightning pathways that cost very little and do not even have to touch some of the hubs.  I would guess we see the hubs being involved in transactions that are big enough that it becomes hard to find pathways between the idealists.  But my node has enough inbound and outbound liquidity that I could route payments approaching $10kUSD at today's prices.

Anyway.. it is VERY interesting in my opinion... and we are still in the infant stages of it.  It will be fun to watch! 
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
September 10, 2021, 05:23:51 AM
#51
Shower thought for Lightning Network Observers, will Lightning fees be cheaper and cheaper as the network grows, and its participants increase? Or will it be higher and higher?

I believe it’s another important question before we assume anything about the Lightning Network.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 5146
Note the unconventional cAPITALIZATION!
September 09, 2021, 07:48:32 PM
#50
When I first spun up my lightning nodes in 2019 they would possibly route 2 or 3 transactions (not my own) each month.

In 2020 they would process 2-5 transactions a week.

In 2021 they would do 20-50 a month.

At THIS point (9/21) I am seeing HUNDREDS of transactions go through a DAY.

Anedotcical evidence of Lightning Network growing day after day is building up. Of course due to the privacy guaranteed by the protocol is very difficult to assess the growth without relying on unproven claims by node operators.

But when all go on the same direction the easiest explanations is probably the true one:


https://twitter.com/alexbosworth/status/1433988909600411649?s=21

Well done @cAPSLOCK

Thank you!  And yes, Bos is killing it. I imagine he is actually making money running his nodes as well.  My humble little node is actually one of his "BOS" rated nodes.  I think I recently made it into the double digits, I was literally tied for 99 I think. lol.

I am glad folks like him can monetize their routing.  His fees are actually pretty high...
per tx: 1.000 sat  $0.000464888
per sat: 0.002500 sat  $0.000001162219

I imagine he is actually routing an occasional transaction that is MORE expensive than the base layer!  A $1000 transaction would cost more than $2 I think...  But then, why not use the base layer for a 2.2mm sat transaction.  And he is charging a premium for actually routing those payments.  He also has a amazingly high threshold size on his channels... I feel like the last time I looked he wanted ~ 16mm sats?  And although I might like to have another 16mm channel (I only have one), I doubt I would want to open it with Bosworth just because of the fees...

I am encouraged there is a low fee movement taking hold with us more ordinary nodes.  I believe it will benefit the network, and that is a good thing.  And I agree with Rene Pickhardt that zero base fees is a VERY good idea.  Not because I am against people making money... but because it really supports the idea of micropayments, and streaming payments.  I would also like to see a threshold.  Like <50k sats no fees.

I am starting to see lots of transactions to Podcast.info that are between 1-5 sats.  And a single sat base fee would possibly cost the same amount that the listener is sending.  I charge 0/0 on that node.

In a way it is an interesting problem for wallet makers.  A $100 lightning network payment could be free, or it could cost $1.  And you don't know what you've paid till the payment is sent.

Anyway... rambling now.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
September 09, 2021, 06:19:39 PM
#49
When I first spun up my lightning nodes in 2019 they would possibly route 2 or 3 transactions (not my own) each month.

In 2020 they would process 2-5 transactions a week.

In 2021 they would do 20-50 a month.

At THIS point (9/21) I am seeing HUNDREDS of transactions go through a DAY.

Anedotcical evidence of Lightning Network growing day after day is building up. Of course due to the privacy guaranteed by the protocol is very difficult to assess the growth without relying on unproven claims by node operators.

But when all go on the same direction the easiest explanations is probably the true one:


https://twitter.com/alexbosworth/status/1433988909600411649?s=21

Well done @cAPSLOCK
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 5146
Note the unconventional cAPITALIZATION!
September 09, 2021, 10:08:13 AM
#48
When I first spun up my lightning nodes in 2019 they would possibly route 2 or 3 transactions (not my own) each month.

In 2020 they would process 2-5 transactions a week.

In 2021 they would do 20-50 a month.

At THIS point (9/21) I am seeing HUNDREDS of transactions go through a DAY.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
September 01, 2021, 04:14:43 PM
#47
Do you want to work in Lightning?


https://www.lightningjobs.app/


Something caught my eye while casually browsing for jobs on a Strike work ad:

Quote
We do not make hiring decisions based on educational history whatsoever. Our founder is a college dropout. We employ high school dropouts, PhD candidates and everything in-between. We do not hire credentials. We simply hire talented, passionate individuals who are excited to be a part of our team.
Quote

I can't think of anything more destructive than that.

legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 5874
light_warrior ... 🕯️
September 01, 2021, 10:16:54 AM
#46
So, protests have escalated in El Salvador ... as they say, the CIA is not asleep, meanwhile Twitter is launching a beta test of the bitcoin tipping service, and in parallel is developing Bluesky, [I'll try to find out what people say about this on the Twitter forum, and what need to become a beta tester]. Meanwhile, SEC continues to reject ETF requests ... I think a storm is coming.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
September 01, 2021, 09:59:37 AM
#45
Breaking news! TWITTER + STRIKE = LN TIPPING!

TWITTER BETA TESTING BITCOIN LIGHTNING TIPPING SERVICE
Quote
Twitter is now testing the ability to tip users in Bitcoin through Jack Maller’s lightning network app Strike.


legendary
Activity: 3304
Merit: 8633
Crypto Swap Exchange
September 01, 2021, 01:51:30 AM
#44
if you live not far from el salvador, you can buy some ticktes for the 'Adopting Bitcoin - A Lightning Summit 2021' in mid november and then visit this interesting conference Smiley
and what i find very good is that 100% of profits from the summit will be donated to support the lightning network development👌💪



Quote
The adoption of Bitcoin in the Republic of El Salvador caused excitement around the world. It’s time to shine! Adopting Bitcoin is bringing together the Bitcoin and Lightning community in San Salvador and El Zonte to create connections and foster the future of money and payments in the Central American republic.
https://adoptingbitcoin.org/
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 177
August 30, 2021, 06:14:25 AM
#43
<-->
discussion about the lightning address maybe in this topic i opened about it
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
August 30, 2021, 06:09:51 AM
#42
LN user experience is getting even better with Lightning Addresses:


https://lightningaddress.com/

Quote
We created the Lightning Address protocol to empower everyone to send money like we send emails — instantly and abundantly. Coupled with the Lightning Network’s ability to send Bitcoin instantly and with (almost) no fees, we’re ushering in a new standard for how value moves around the world.




https://twitter.com/PCristi7/status/1431531884778070025?s=20

Video:

https://twitter.com/andreneves/status/1431411673915592709?s=20

Official Repository: https://github.com/andrerfneves/lightning-address
Dev Documentation: https://github.com/andrerfneves/lightning-address/blob/master/README.md

Discover More Here:
[Lightning] The Lightning Address by ndalliard
legendary
Activity: 2310
Merit: 4085
Farewell o_e_l_e_o
August 27, 2021, 09:41:24 PM
#41
There you go with my topic
legendary
Activity: 2310
Merit: 4085
Farewell o_e_l_e_o
August 24, 2021, 10:30:42 AM
#40
Let's make this topic great with another informative article
This table is interesting, and I already downloaded data from BitcoinVisuals but for now I don't have time to play with it. Such table is great because it quantifies the growth of Lightning network.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
August 24, 2021, 06:03:51 AM
#39
Nice, emotional, two part video on Lightning network.


https://twitter.com/BitcoinIsaiah/status/1429983900043038721?s=20

Sorry for the initial caption... the video is better than that!
legendary
Activity: 2310
Merit: 1422
August 21, 2021, 04:14:02 AM
#38
Everything's the important word here!
This is changing literally everything and anything. I'm not an expert on LN myself, I know I should be, but for the sake of what I need I prefer a custodial approach to LN.
Like those examples you mentioned that's what we need.
We only need more and more people to rely on it to see this revolution unfolding right before our eyes.
It's about time for the many, but for a few visionaries, this is changing everything.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
August 20, 2021, 06:47:14 PM
#37
When I started Lightning Network Observer I thought a thread to post not too technical content about LN, there are already superb threads dealing with those matters, inspiring people to join this solution showing how can effectively make the bitcoin user experience better and then making our beloved orange coin more suitable to help people solve problems.

Content like this:


https://twitter.com/jackmallers/status/1428429890957848591?s=20

Wow, so what? Jack sent 10 USD to a bloke using a couple of apps. WOW!

Obviously this is a very superficial way of looking at this.
It could be true for someone living in a fully banked world, having access to the banking system, visa and Paypal networks etc.

This reality is not so common in the world, as you might not imagine.

On the other end of the trade, there is a guy in Nigeria.

How does he see this?



https://twitter.com/Afo_Ogunnaike/status/1428447467771662343?s=20



Everything happened without authorisations, commercial relationships, license agreements, stamps, lawyers or other frictions.
Everything happened in a trustless, uncensorable, irreversible way.
Everything with instant settlement and no fees.






legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 5874
light_warrior ... 🕯️
August 20, 2021, 03:05:18 PM
#36
Firstly, I am full of enthusiasm to receive notifications from this thread, that's why I'm here ... secondly, having superficially looked at Jack's / Jay Graber new brainchild [blueskyweb.org], I immediately think of the unsuccessful brainchild of Durov (TON). So I would be grateful if someone has a couple of minutes to enlighten me a little. Maybe I'm wrong but the other day I saw a mention in the spirit of "bluesky & light network" so I ask. [besides the publications above]
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3132
August 20, 2021, 09:13:27 AM
#35
Somehow I forgot to mention those threads before.
Added to OP together with some other useful resource.

You might also consider adding Electrum Lightning Network walkthough to your list. If someone is using Electrum as their main wallet then they might give Lightning Network a try if they see that thread. Some people might find All Lightning Network Threads In One Place useful as well.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
August 20, 2021, 05:48:40 AM
#34

Oh, great suggestion.
Somehow I forgot to mention those threads before.
Added to OP together with some other useful resource.

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