Topic: (LKK) LYKKE speculation - page 2. (Read 9020 times)

I don't really mind your critics and "concerns", you have a lot of good points and things that need to be clarified, plus some are very benefitial for Lykke on how to improve. But it's all over the place sometimes and at other times you are stating opinions as facts, which I don't think is wise, it goes nowhere.

I very much agree on your thoughts on business "leadership" and how of course every businessman should fight hard for its company to make money, however you mentioned the Gates foundation, many CEOs and wealthy people (some already left the position) are really trying to make the world a better place, they are older and more mature and greed is out of the equation already, they have a lot money and power already. You can see that in many personalities like Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Jack Ma, etc. Others were more ruthless like Steve Jobs if you will! But most succesful people like that end up being the most generous in comparison to people like us that live day to day or month to month.

But to answer your question about "if he's not into the money he can pledge half his coins to the Gates Foundation or something", it's funny but the answer is at Lykke site clear as water although I don't have much more info than that:


So as you see, you have to acknowledge that on some topics you are not well informed and we are trying to give you some insights from the other side even if we are not from the development team.

Who started talking about him?


 
Is that factually accurate?


And you didn't personally attack? I don't want to copy it all but take a look at all what you've said about Richard Olsen, including:


Is that factually accurate and not personal, especially in the context what else you said about him and Lykke in general?


Regarding him being the biggest Investor: He said that himself once on telegram. Unfortunately I didn't make a screenshot. But thing is: He started Lykke out of nothing so I don't have much doubt that it's true.

Look tempus and mtnsaa leave the Richard Olsen thing alone. I hardly think calling a successful businessman a "ruthlessly successful businessman" would give someone an action against me, anonymous or not. The whole point is I never post factually inaccurate things, or personally attack people. Just because there's a soft velvet glove on the outside doesn't mean there's not an iron fist inside it, and there's a lot of successful people I think that applies to.

And no it doesn't bother me at all that Richard Olsen gets supermajority of LKK and makes most profit from Lykke's success, and no tempus from all the documents I've seen he is not the largest capital investor, there were some angel investors and the ICO and that's where most of the funding came from. I don't mind that either, I say good on him. What I mind is the pretense that he's not a hard-as-nails businessman out to make money - if he's not into the money he can pledge half his coins to the Gates Foundation or something. I don't think he should, I just think it's insane to suggest he has no profit motive. But let's just leave him out of it, I think we both agree that we admire him even if you see more selfless motivations in him than I do.

The point is other people put up most of the capital, and Richard stands to make a supermajority of the profit. The question 'is that unfair?' to me is a pointless one. The better question is, is that life? Yes, it is.

tempus I agree with you that once Bitcoin DOES scale with Segwit 2x,and like you I believe IT WILL, then it will go crazy upward. But before that, as we get closer to 1 August, I wonder if some money will get scared out of the market, and I think non BTC coins including Lykke are likely to be more affected by this fear than even BTC. Like you say, we'll see.

Your logic is completely flawed and I agree on the comments on Richard Olsen that tempus just gave you. However I can see why you are concerned on "a guy owning most of the coins" concept since you seem to come from a crypto background like most of us. I also would take that seriously when doing due dilligence but you need to change that view with Lykke since you are talking about a company not a protocol or a currency here.

So your argument is wrong in the sense that it can be applied to Facebook/Zuckerberg or the guys at Snapchat who own like 98% of the shares. LKK will become more distributed with time although there's no really a need for that, it doesn't have any benefit whatsoever, you can use Lykke products and services without buying shares in the company just like you use Gmail or let's say Coinbase or Xapo for similar competition examples.

Regarding Bitcoin: I'm not so sure that things will go wrong. Reason is: A huge majority wants segwit and I know of nobody with authority and skin in the game who would want a split. What is likely to happen: Segwit will hopefully (my opinion it's likely) be activated pretty soon and then we will see if the hardfork to 2mb will happen. That is controversial for sure but it will be some time in between.

And that absolutely could lead to a rising price because the pressure on Bitcoin is caused by all the controversy and the frozen fronts-status and the lack of progress - not just since we see the price going down but even earlier, that it didn't move up much more.

But, we will see how things turn out. Bad scenarios are not impossible of course but will most likely hit the whole market. That's why I think your focus on Lykke is so interesting. ;-)

Like I've already told you: It's never smart to state personal theories as facts and to speak about people you don't know in such a way. Whatever you might think about Richard Olsen doesn't matter. Of course it's easy to come up with accusations like you already did, that he would intervene on the market, because the price didn't drop like you wanted to see it (and let's not forget: You just need to take a look at the volume and you know WHO buys. That's a great skill!) And of course it's easy to say things about R. Olsen how you do it now, using words like "ruthlessly" etc., while being hidden behind a pseudonym.

But from us both here, you are the one who doesn't know him. I have never met him personally but we've talked several times on phone. And we both can't look into his head, but I never had the impression that he started Lykke to make money and he is in no way ruthlessly but the opposite. And since many many years Richard Olsen is known as Innovator, as somebody who is a combination of economical expert, business man, philosoph, and yes... he really wants to change how financial markets work - that's not an attitude to make money. He is absolutely serious about that and not just since Lykke.

So, if you really want to write bullshit about him I can't stop you but maybe ask yourself why. Nobody has ever tried to force you into buying LKK. Your problem is that you want it cheaper.

And when it's about Richard Olsen's supply, let's try it with logic:

- Richard Olsen is the main-founder of Lykke, the one who started it
- He is one of several people behind this project who works hard for it every day.
- Richard Olsen is the main-investor
- LKK is not a cryptocurrency but represents ownership of the company

So why the hell shouldn't he own most of it?


It's really simple:

If an Investor believes in the idea and has some trust into the team, he might recognize it as an opportunity and a potential win-win-situation to buy LKK - all risks involved. If somebody doesn't believe in Lykke and/or the people who are working on it is free to stay away.

And if somebody considers LKK as good investment, like you already said that:


....but believes that it's overvalued: Simply wait. If you are sure that the price will go down, just wait to get it cheaper somewhere in future. But if you believe that you have to talk it down with all what you come up with - that is really revealing. That shows much more about you than about Lykke or Richard Olsen.

Yes, I tend to agree that in the leadup to Segwit 2x downside risk probably isn't fully priced, so below 15 cents would be a buying opportunity.

What I've said about Richard Olsen is Lykke is a "make Richard Olsen richer scheme". This is patently obvious given that he owns most LKK. It is not even a criticism of him, I think he's a genius. But I don't like this pretense that he's all a lovey-dovey, hug-the-tree, let's all be fair to each other, kindly Scandinavian uncle. If you didn't notice, he's a ruthlessly successful businessman - that's not a bad thing, but pretending to people that this man who owns most LKK is not in it for his own profit is a bad thing.

The price use to be just 0.02$, it rise up to $0.50 during the pump but its now dipping. If you were to buy, you might want to wait til we'll see it goes down below $0.15 because thats when investors who ride during the pump may hold for years.

I don't demonise you. I don't even take it personal. But of course I didn't appreciate your several attempts to talk the price down with claims like "LKK started selling off earlier and faster than the altcoin market as a whole", your accusations the market would be manipulated, even personal against Richard Olsen, and your price-talking on several threads on reddit.

It's really simple: You come up with things like that, I reply on it. Nothing personal, nothing special.

Will you stop demonising me for mentioning an inconvenient truth? It is not an outrageous thing to say in the lead up to Segwit 2x I think all altcoins including LKK will drop. I think Bitcoin will drop too but less.

Instead of entering into fair dialogue, you throw a bunch of personal insults at me, someone you've never met, for expressing an opinion. In response to the false and unfair allegation, I bought LKK at 0.06 and I thought it was good value at that price. Yes, but not buying now because I think it's overvalued - mainly because it has NO licenses besides "Vanuatu brokerage license", and when compared to competitors that DO have such licenses its present price at 26 cents makes no sense (TO ME).

It's unfair to demonise all dissent.

@playingpoodles, you didn't get any grip on the official thread and reddit, so you try it here again? ;-)

It wasn't just LKK-1yr that dropped, LKK has dropped from 41 cents to 25 cents. If people don't think there's more pain in store for the crypto markets in the lead up to Segwit 2x on 1 August fine, but I'd beg to disagree.

There's too much downside risk for everything on the market until Bitcoin scales. The only short-term "safe" places I see are Tether and to a lesser extent Bitcoin itself. (Bitcoin will likely drop over the next two weeks, but other coins will probably drop more so).

I see way too much downside risk for LKK over the short term, it's possible first week or two of August could be a time to get in, if it drops enough that it makes sense from a valuation perspective.

well you are right to some extent that lkk-10 was dropped down because of the market value was decreased a lot and the people got dishearten by the dump in the price .bitcoin is a chance for those people to get benefit and earn money as much they want.

What do you mean? Shareholders own a percent of the company, they are entitled to dividends, voting rights and any asset the company owns now or in the future. This would include licenses, offices, equipment and so on. In that sense Lykke is one of the only projects that gives you actual equity, it's not a digital protocol or a piece of a platform (I compare tokens or coins to "software licenses"). This doesn't mean an Adobe or Microsoft software product can't have value but is very different compared to actual shares in Adobe or Microsoft companies.

how does lykke reward the shareholders?

Agreed with all this, the issue raised is understandable though as David Siegel is known for its work on Lykke University for example. So I would ask him about Lykke if I were about to invest in Pillar for example not the other way around.

There are many projects similar to Lykke that were started before too, like Waves or Bitshares who share similar characteristics. There's also new ones like Mothership and I'm sure there will be many upcoming ones as Blockchain keep evolving so I don't see the point in dwelling or speculating on that. I would go as far as saying Litecoin or Expanse are direct forks of Bitcoin and Expanse and I don't see any problem with that, the best one will win, and it's safe to assume there's room for more than one in every niche.

Pillar is not related to Lykke. There are also no relations between Lykke and Mothership.

People are free to build teams and to present their whitepapers and goals to potential Investors who have to come to own conclusions and to make their choice if to invest in a project or not. And it’s always a good choice to dig deep to find out if something may have quality and a chance or not. I personally don’t know anything about mothership so far and if it could be seen as similar to Lykke or even a competitor. What I know about Pillar - I have zero concerns that it could turn out as competitor.


About this:

"Someone complained about someone copying the Lykke project and Tempus was trolling the guy acting very strange so I decided to start researching."

I didn't defend Pillar in any way, but I disagreed with implications that David Siegel is a scammer or "stabbed Richard in the back". As far as I know: Nobody in Lykke is concerned about Pillar. The rest of the discussion on slack was pretty personal because I then was accused to work for Pillar or that I should leave Lykke to work for Pillar, being a scum and delusional and so on - so I just defended myself.

Lykke is really great. It is an interesting concept. The coin is actually shares of the company!

Lykke and Pillar Project coming out with a ICO is almost the same project. The guy making the Pillar Project work in Lykkes slack channel and wrote an article for them https://medium.com/@pullnews/the-story-of-the-lykke-coin-251b8179480c.  Someone complained about someone copying the Lykke project and Tempus was trolling the guy acting very strange so I decided to start researching. I would think his reaction is wow i need to tell Richard about this. This is the pillar project https://us.pillarproject.io/. Also the story of the pillar project just like the lykke project... https://theascent.biz/the-story-of-the-pillar-project-bc7a653c8931. There is another one called the mother ship same idea and the road map is formatted just like the lykke roap map. Not sure now if Lykke is for real or just rolling out ICOs with the same idea.


 

I have warned people for two weeks now not to listen to those pushing irrational exuberance. I warned LKK was dropping. Now the altcoin route today is harder and faster than I anticipated, I easily see LKK 10-15 cents, wtih under 10 cents probably a safe place to get back in.

He was right, the price "didn't last", but it didn't quite move in the direction he was intending - having a more downpointing tilt than the straight line up promised. Lykke was cheap at 6 cents. At 41 cents, it was substantially overvalued at some $600 million plus in marketcap. To give you perspective Coinbase was talking about raising a funding round that valued itself at $1 billion http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/02/bitcoin-start-up-coinbase-aims-for-1-billion-valuation.html

Coinbase in conjunction with its exchange GDAX has regulatory approval all over the place, including UK, Canada, most of EU Europe, and most or all US states (probably most not all). It has insurance for both crypto, and for US folks FDIC insurance of USD deposits.

Lykke on the other hand according to its annual report has "a Vanuatu brokerage license".  https://www.lykke.com/Annual_Report_2016.pdf (see page 3 and from page 19)

It is "applying" for lots of licenses, with keys being the US and UK. Applying for a license and having one is a very different thing. Lykke really has no licenses at this point, although they'll likely get some as time goes on, and anyway they appear to be allowing transactions without a license certainly with cryptocurrency, which they can probably get away with since everyone else is doing that. Not having any US license is a massive thing, and I'm not sure with a Swiss firm in competition with US incumbent Coinbase how enthusiastically and quickly US authorities will be in granting them licenses.

Lykke's userbase according to its recent annual report is 11,442 users as of 1 June 2017. https://www.lykke.com/Annual_Report_2016.pdf  (Page 5).

I couldn't get exact stats out there on Coinbase, but it seems like it's got anywhere from 6 to 10 million users.
https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-user-base-surges-coinbase-adds-1-mln-users-in-1-month
http://www.newsbtc.com/2017/03/01/bitcoin-exchange-coinbase-surpasses-6-million-total-users/

Lykke is sitting currently at just under $480 million in total market cap (that is marketcap including coins held by founders and not in free float, which is something like 80 to 90 per cent of them).

My point is, how could Lykke possibly be worth half of Coinbase, that has 6 to 10 million users, worldwide regulatory approval, including the key US market through approval in US states when Lykke has less than 12,000 users and no real regulatory approval? (I'm not suggesting Vanuatu is not a "real" jurisdiction, I'm saying it's not an important one for the purposes of cryptocurrency markets).

My conclusion is it can't. That's why the price is off over 10% at 36.5 cents, but I think the price correction has only just begun. Segwit 2x will activate, and, when it does, Bitcoin will go up like crazy. No one will want to miss out on the action, they'll dump lots of things to free up liquidity to ride the "Bitcoin has finally scaled" wave up, they'll dump Ether, and they will certainly dump Lykke - especially early investors who are already sitting on lovely, acceptable 7x profits. I easily see a correction down to 25 to 30 cents in the next couple of months, which is probably closer to fair value anyway.

The big upside risks are (1) US regulatory approval and (2) substantial userbase growth. The big downside risks are (1) rejection or delay of US regulatory approval (2) Bitcoin scales and everyone dumps everything including Lykke to buy it.