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Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 1478. (Read 2761647 times)

newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
So you've decided the font size will give more weight to your idea?



People want a solution to A, I provide a solution to A, people ask for a solution to A without responding to my solution.
Do you see how this is annoying?

Can you find an issue with it? Why shouldn't this work? It filters out accounts made to control voting outcome and weights votes based on variables that people seem to be comfortable with.

If you guys don't want to use it, or can find a flaw, that's absolutely fine.

full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
Since proving one is where nothing can be known with certainty is very easy to manipulate our answer has to be will. Or better, one's will to be. The ones who will to prove they are, the ones who prove who they are, earn the right to vote. Meritocratic voting.

A simple example of this would be requiring the solution of a random number of captcha problems (between 35 and 55) for one vote. Thoughts?

I'd probably kill someone before I finish that many.

Can't have something for nothing. How about a random number of captacha (or ReCapthca) problems between 25 and 35? Finding the right low number is the secret.
full member
Activity: 171
Merit: 100
ahh Voting!
one of my favorite discussions ;-)

Currently read many good aspects here!
I think we need to consider most of them in beta Client.
More and more it becomes clear that there is not THE ONE way for VS.
But there are different poll-categories, e.g "assets-polls" is different category as "best button color-polls".

The poll initiator should be able to choose boundary conditions depending on poll-topic.
The poll boundary conditions need to be transparent during run time.
To be more constructive lets try to collect some "Voting Models":

general options:
- min. permitted Account Deposit
- min. permitted Account age (Blocks)
- poll duration (Blocks)
- Voting Fee

Voting Models
- 1 NXT        ==   1 Vote  { vote = Func(accountBalance) }
- 1 Account  ==  1 Vote   { vote = Func(accountBalance) =  0.5 * accountBalance}
- 1 NXT        ==   x Vote  { x = Func(accountBalance) =  polynom * accountBalance}

no claim to completeness!


We need to discuss selection options too:
[true]    [false]    [abstention]
I think [abstention] provides an important information too.
E.g. a high count of [abstention] tells the poll creator "interesting question buddy, but not this way!!!" ...


Please extent the "general options" and "voting models" ideas!!!
It makes sense to collect all to keep the overview.

The discussion about "selection options"  was already started by Anon136 and CIYAM...


What do you think about this idea for decentralized voting using biometric verification (voting @ the bottom): http://juliansarokin.com/100-years-the-future-of-government/



I think you point this to 'one user one account' issue for voting.
was just scrolling down your web page, interesting topic, need to think about (its late;-).

Biometrics are an issue if you need to identify a person for authorization.
Thats why spontaneous, I would connect this more to J-L's "hive" topic.
This would bring the synergy to implement an account<=>biometric identity connection and would be an enabler for something like this.

Don't sure about the effort to implement into protocol.
- I think its not an client issue?

legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1004
Yeah, this is getting ridiculous, we usually fill 30 pages of voting arguments with no results.  I still think we need to keep it tied with AM, so it can be easily implemented into a client down the road.  Think of like this, I want to start a voting topic using weslyn web tool, I fill in the parameters, it creates a Nxt account specific to that topic, everyone votes by sending me a public AM "Yes" or "No".  I can then check for duplicates, blockchain height, etc.. when tallying votes.  The block chain wins because forgers are rewarded with Nxt used to vote.

Why do you need AM's here, when the site can check everything for you?

Compare the steps required to send AM to a specific account for a specific vote to going to a site and clicking a button.

All issues and all votes will be in one place, clearly visible to everyone, even without a NXT account.

And why do we need to load blockchain when we can avoid it?

Really, is it that difficult to send an AM?  We aren't bloating the blockchain, we are adding value to the POS system with forging rewards.  With public AM, all votes are there for the public to see, no manipulation.  Voting needs to cost 1 Nxt so people only vote on topics important to them.
sr. member
Activity: 897
Merit: 284
Since proving one is where nothing can be known with certainty is very easy to manipulate our answer has to be will. Or better, one's will to be. The ones who will to prove they are, the ones who prove who they are, earn the right to vote. Meritocratic voting.

A simple example of this would be requiring the solution of a random number of captcha problems (between 35 and 55) for one vote. Thoughts?

I'd probably kill someone before I finish that many.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1016
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
Since proving one is where nothing can be known with certainty is very easy to manipulate our answer has to be will. Or better, one's will to be. The ones who will to prove they are, the ones who prove who they are, earn the right to vote. Meritocratic voting.

A simple example of this would be requiring the solution of a random number of captcha problems (between 35 and 55) for one vote. Thoughts?
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
PGP 9CB0902E
please provide ONE mathematical model, that would not be gamed in favor of the big stakeholders.

Mathematics are not the issue.

Are you implying that because ones knowledge of math(mine) is not enough, then everyone else who knows equal or less or more math than me has more voting power because he has a bigger wallet?? This is what is being discussed.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1002
Simcoin Developer
votingweight = ( 1 / similarity ) ^ (4/3) * (accountbalance)^(1/3) * (accountage)^2 (timesvoted)^(3/2)

gamed in favor of Account Age, previous amount of votes cast on issues, and moderately by account balance.

Similarity prevents a large account being split into smaller accounts.

I will explain similarity if anyone is interested...




So you've decided the font size will give more weight to your idea?
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1010
The aim is to be sure it's one voter, one vote. (I hope)
I am not tech savvy enough to ascertain that within a digital environment without giving up identity.

Is there?

Nope, it looks like a fundamentally unsolvable problem.

That's why other methods are proposed, like PoS and PoW (captchas, etc.).

Maybe this will help to spark some ideas on a good voting system:

http://www.mathgoespop.com/2012/03/and-the-award-for-best-voting-system-goes-to.html

Tai Zen

An AI tech friend of mine dabbles in this kind of system and will be proposing it to municipalities in the Netherlands.
He calls it "modular voting" where you basically get a bag of votes that you can distribute over issues in a weighted system.
Thanks for that link!
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1001
Yeah, this is getting ridiculous, we usually fill 30 pages of voting arguments with no results.  I still think we need to keep it tied with AM, so it can be easily implemented into a client down the road.  Think of like this, I want to start a voting topic using weslyn web tool, I fill in the parameters, it creates a Nxt account specific to that topic, everyone votes by sending me a public AM "Yes" or "No".  I can then check for duplicates, blockchain height, etc.. when tallying votes.  The block chain wins because forgers are rewarded with Nxt used to vote.

Yup, I've had enough, we keep going thru the same cycle over and over without any progress.
Hence my idea of setting up a voting website to function as a testbed for the voting process.
Once the voting site has been used, modified and tweaked , and is working to (almost) everyones satisfaction, we can transfer its feature set into NXT client.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0

please explain why does a bigger wallet has to have more saying than  a small wallet.

please provide ONE mathematical model, that would not be gamed in favor of the big stakeholders.

do it and we will be all ears!

votingweight = ( 1 / similarity ) ^ (4/3) * (accountbalance)^(1/3) * (accountage)^2 (timesvoted)^(3/2)

gamed in favor of Account Age, previous amount of votes cast on issues, and moderately by account balance.

Similarity prevents a large account being split into smaller accounts.

I will explain similarity if anyone is interested...




hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1002
Simcoin Developer
Yeah, this is getting ridiculous, we usually fill 30 pages of voting arguments with no results.  I still think we need to keep it tied with AM, so it can be easily implemented into a client down the road.  Think of like this, I want to start a voting topic using weslyn web tool, I fill in the parameters, it creates a Nxt account specific to that topic, everyone votes by sending me a public AM "Yes" or "No".  I can then check for duplicates, blockchain height, etc.. when tallying votes.  The block chain wins because forgers are rewarded with Nxt used to vote.

Why do you need AM's here, when the site can check everything for you?

Compare the steps required to send AM to a specific account for a specific vote to going to a site and clicking a button.

All issues and all votes will be in one place, clearly visible to everyone, even without a NXT account.

And why do we need to load blockchain when we can avoid it?
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
The aim is to be sure it's one voter, one vote. (I hope)
I am not tech savvy enough to ascertain that within a digital environment without giving up identity.

Is there?

Nope, it looks like a fundamentally unsolvable problem.

That's why other methods are proposed, like PoS and PoW (captchas, etc.).

Maybe this will help to spark some ideas on a good voting system:

http://www.mathgoespop.com/2012/03/and-the-award-for-best-voting-system-goes-to.html

Tai Zen
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1010
I would just like to throw one thing that has been mentioned by a few people into the arena and then call it quits for the day on this topic for me:

At this moment it is not yet clear whát we will be able to vote about. If it's development of the total Nxt infrastructure, then it's hugely influential.
If it's basically relatively easy things, it isn't all that dangerous anymore.

I agree by the way that major development needs to come out of the community itself by developing features, and are not voteable topics, unless they would upset the balance of the total system (if that's even possible)
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1004
Yeah, this is getting ridiculous, we usually fill 30 pages of voting arguments with no results.  I still think we need to keep it tied with AM, so it can be easily implemented into a client down the road.  Think of like this, I want to start a voting topic using weslyn web tool, I fill in the parameters, it creates a Nxt account specific to that topic, everyone votes by sending me a public AM "Yes" or "No".  I can then check for duplicates, blockchain height, etc.. when tallying votes.  The block chain wins because forgers are rewarded with Nxt used to vote.
full member
Activity: 184
Merit: 100

please explain why does a bigger wallet has to have more saying than  a small wallet.

please provide ONE mathematical model, that would not be gamed in favor of the big stakeholders.

do it and we will be all ears!
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1002
Simcoin Developer
I propose: utopianfuture, smartwart, coolmist (and anyone else who feels really strongly about it or has the tech skills to get a site up) form a working group and throw something up on the Webs to try out.

You mean like this?

http://nxtra.org/voting/add.php

We stopped because CfB said there will be a built-in voting system, though it's unclear where one can read any details about it...
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1001
Hey...look at the price !!!

Cool , eh?

Edit: Now in 5th place on CoinMarketCap, just rolled over Mastercoin. Go, NXT!
newbie
Activity: 53
Merit: 0
Anonymity (no passport required) and fair voting is quite impossible under circumstances where one person can hide behind several accounts.
Besides even in elections where passport id is required it is very often the case that votes are bought.

So someone rich paying minions to cast the desired vote is a real possibility. I wonder if this will ever happen in NXT community.
Those must be damn important decisions to trigger something like that.
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