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Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 1477. (Read 2761645 times)

hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 504
BCNext could be one of the member of the Satoshi.
BUT i bet he is probably Sunny King experimenting on his modified POS system.

My guess 20% Satoshi 70% Sunny Kind 10% Other AltCoin Dev.
He definitely has experience in cryptocurrency!

Sunny King lives in a different timezone than BCNext
sr. member
Activity: 478
Merit: 250
Re: Voting...

Why are we still having this discussion?

Nxt is PoS, voting should be based upon stake: 1 NXT == 1 Vote.

It's the only fair way.

This seems obvious to me but maybe I'm missing something. Are small stakeholders afraid that large stakeholders will band together and vote to take away their money or something? Is something nefarious like that even possible? What mechanism is in place to enforce voting results?
sr. member
Activity: 404
Merit: 250
https://nxtforum.org/
Why is not anyone creating localnxtcoin.com or localnxt.com?
Domain name is not even being squatted?

This can be our first worldwide nxt/fiat gateway.
Just like https://localbitcoins.com/
It should be easy to implement with automated escrow service. And an internal rating system.
If you can create an EXCHANGE, i'm pretty sure you can handle "localnxt".

Dev should set a nice bounty for this.
Agreed?
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1002
Simcoin Developer
I'm suggesting keeping our voting system within the Nxt blockchain, where it belongs, so it can be implemented into a client in the future.  You are the one talking about developing a website to handle all of this, that is more complicated then opening a Nxt account and sending AM's to that account.  

What the cost of website development has to do with it? What matters is how easy and convenient it is for people.

Sending AM's into different accounts is a Rube Goldberg contraption. It's difficult to use, it's difficult to see the results. It loads the blockchain with something that can be done off-chain.

What's the advantage? Integration with the client? It can be integrated with the site too, especially since we're moving in the direction of thin clients anyway.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1004
At the risk of sounding like an extremist, I want to have people like klee and CfB to have a LOT more weight than frictionlesscoin. does anybody disagree with this?

The problem here is wealth disparity is much larger than intellect disparity.

If I have $10 and Bill Gates has 50 billion, does this mean he's 5 billion times smarter than me?

So we need a "compressor" function and that can be gamed by splitting wealth into multiple accounts to get "optimal" voting power.

If you are voting on Microsoft topics?  Yes.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
PGP 9CB0902E
full member
Activity: 186
Merit: 100
1 vote 1 human is impossible because of all possibilities of cheating...

So:
Rule 1: There should be a census - minimal amount of Nxts owned on account to be able to vote.

Rule 2: Only enough experienced NXTers should be able to vote (because of possiblity of exploting Rule 1 and level of user maturity is important)

Precise numbers are up to you. I would say minimum of 100 NXTs and a month of owning it.

/edit
Rule 3: Quality of vote makes differece (like shares in stock company) - more NXTs more power of vote - not proportionally of course... maybe 1 vote for first 10 NXTs and 1 more for each next 1000 NXTs ?

3 rules should be enough. You can't make it perfect after all... nothing is perfect...

/endedit

This is logical that only owning certain amount of NXTs for a long enough time makes person a real member of community with bigger probability that he actually knows anything about it...

That's basicly how greek direct democracy worked too...

I would even say that there could be something like a 2 grade votings. Less important stuff decided in majority voting and these really important decissions made in smaller, elite, arystocracy-like type of voting with higher requirements.


Direct democracy works only when there is up to 100000 equal people deciding.
In all democracies there is elite which show nation a direction to mass less interested in politics.

All today democracies aren't direct and people doesn't really decide and they passivly agree that minority rules them... and in many cases there is no real aristocracy to show direction but only bunch of thieves trying to steal as much as possible before next election...

I would also put into voting a possibility of choosing 1 good person for a NXT King Wink
Kingdom can be good or bad depends who is a King but demoracy is always stupid and ends badly Wink
I will repeat it in future when NXt will face inevitable problem of populistic votings (if voting wil be without 2 requirements above) Wink
sr. member
Activity: 460
Merit: 250

We can set the weight of an unknown acct to be 1. So, if this is the direction we want to go, then the first question is what is the max weight a single account will have? 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, one million?

If we can agree on a max weight, then we can have a chance at figuring out what weight each person has. I think it should be a publicly visible vote by handle.

James

Perhaps the only way to assign weight to votes without resorting to stake volume is to allow the community itself define that weight.

Besides a public key as a basic requirement, this reminds of the planned (?) rep system, which could be a measure of weight. Then the burden shifts onto when and how rep points can be awarded, but it might be another way to mix democracy and meritocracy.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1002
Simcoin Developer
At the risk of sounding like an extremist, I want to have people like klee and CfB to have a LOT more weight than frictionlesscoin. does anybody disagree with this?

The problem here is wealth disparity is much larger than intellect disparity.

If I have $10 and Bill Gates has 50 billion, does this mean he's 5 billion times smarter than me?

So we need a "compressor" function and that can be gamed by splitting wealth into multiple accounts to get "optimal" voting power.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
So much debate Cheesy

I want to make one thing clear: 1 account = 1 vote will never work, no matter what kind of tweaking or scaling we use to limit large holder's voting power. They will simply create more accounts. This is not disputed, correct? In this scenario (1 account = 1 vote) large holders will actually have more power because they can afford to pay more fees to make new accounts than small holders. Setting a time-lock (ie. account has to be active 1440 blocks before voting starts) does not work as well. What is preventing a large holder making 100000 accounts right now so he can use those 100000 accounts to vote on all future issues (since these accounts are older than 1440 blocks). In any case, in the end, the network will fragment to ~1 billion accounts with 1 NXT each so everyone has the maximum voting power... not ideal.

On the other hand, 1 NXT = 1 vote is the most pure, simplest and non-gameable method that will nearly always vote in the best interest of NXT as a whole. As for the argument that large stakeholders aren't necessarily properly informed to make decisions, that is untrue. If someone has a large stake in NXT, it is guaranteed they will at least do some research before they vote. They will not randomly chose an option that may hurt their holdings. Small stakeholder will not care as much, since he has much less at risk. So in actuality, small stakeholders are the most likely to just randomly vote and pick the one that sounds the best without research.

So far, I have said why I think why large stakeholders will always have NXT's best interest in heart. 1 NXT = 1 vote will also prevent network fragmentation, as there is no incentive to create millions of puppet accounts. But to think on the other side of the coin... What if we remove this incentive to make puppet accounts?

What if we implement a two-tiered voting system? (Sounds like congress...) The "Senate" will comprise of 1 NXT = 1 Vote, and the "House" will comprise of 1 Account = 1 Vote. The poll-maker can set any options he wants (such as: for a very important vote to pass, requires 70% Senate approval and 75% House approval), but ideally, 51% Senate approval and 51% House approval will suffice for a true consensus.

So how will this remove the incentive to make a large amount of puppet accounts? If a large holder decides split his stake up, then he will lose some portion of his stake due to fees, thus reducing his Senate voting power in the process of increasing his house voting power. As the number of accounts increases due to legit new users coming into the system, the stakeholder will have to keep making new accounts to game the House votes. But if he does this, he will be constantly decreasing his Senate voting power and effectively, through fees, increase other's Senate voting power. Every new account he makes, he gives up 1 NXT (fees) + 1 NXT (the forger of the block with his fee) = 2 NXT of voting power in the Senate. So while this won't eliminate puppet accounts completely, it will effectively put a limit on how many accounts a large stakeholder can make. In the future, if we have millions of legitimate users with millions accounts, it will cost the large holders a lot of Senate voting power just to game the House votes.

Still, I don't know if I particularly like this idea, as there will still be some puppet accounts, and according to game theory, everyone will have to create a certain number of puppet accounts in order to compete. But it is much better than simply 1 Account = 1 Vote. Also, there is the issue of a deadlock, where one of the tiers could have a majority and the other does not. How to solve that?

But that was only one idea. I would support 1 Account = 1 Vote if the proposed system would completely remove incentives to make puppet accounts. Otherwise, the system will be gamed. I would rather have 1 NXT = 1 Vote than millions of accounts with 1 NXT because of 1 Account = 1 Vote.

Which brings me to this:

As previously stated, if you try to put limits on how much stake someone can use to vote than a whale will simply break his stake up into multiple accounts. If you try to say that you get 1 vote per account than fraudsters will make a zillion accounts with one nxt each. I think your judgment may be clouded by what you would like to be the case.

I have a solution that will allow almost complete fairness and can identify accounts being controlled by a singular user/group to change the result.

I think this  a perfect time to use weak artificial intelligence algorithms.
I am all ears!

Currently developing the algorithm. It needs multiple voting events to start working.

This is the simplest explanation I can give without a coded application to demonstrate.

additional variable that needs to be added, amount of times an account has voted.

initialvoteWeight = (other variables)(1 / similarity)^2(TotalAccountVotes)

this prevents people from creating a new account each time to vote, or rather it docks them voting power

First vote will be initiated and completed.

"Banks" of accounts that have voted will be created for each option after each vote.

Bank A will always contain the accounts of the winning vote

bankA1[accounts[1-100]] 100 votes + accounts x, y, and z votes.
bankB1[accounts[101-150]] 50 votes

Bank A1 won by 66%

Second vote will commence

"Banks" of accounts that have voted will be created for each option after each vote.

bankA2[accounts[1-75 and 100-109]]  85 votes + accounts x, y, and z votes.

bankB2[accounts[76-99 and 110-150]] 65 votes

Bank A2 won by 56%


third vote will commence

"Banks" of accounts that have voted will be created for each option after each vote.

bankA3[accounts[1-35, 51-75 and 90-150]]  120 votes + accounts x and y votes.

bankB3[accounts[36-50 and 76-89]] 30 votes

BankA3 won by 80%

----

This will be translated into repeat and if statements soon.

if bankA1 contains account[z and x and y] and bankA2 contains account[z and x and y] and bankA3 contains account[z and x and y] set similarity of accounts z, x and y to similarity + 1
Code:
similarity[z] = 1
similarity[x] = 1
similarity[y] = 1
Set totalAccountVotes of account[z and x and y] to totalAccountVotes + 1

end if

if bankA1 contains account[x and y] and bankA2 contains account[x and y] and bankA3 contains account[x and y] and bankA4 contains account[x and y]

set similarity to similarity + 1
Code:
similarity[z] = 1
similarity[x] = 2
similarity[y] = 2

essentially voting power of z will be 4 times higher than x or y. This is just a rough construct of my idea.



This sounds interesting, a method to vote by account, but removes the incentive to make a ton of new accounts? I'm not sure if I grasp the bottomline of this implementation, can you state in words how this will prevent someone from making a ton of accounts? Lastly, how can you calculate similarity? Can't someone can just put their coins through a mixer/exchange?
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1004
Really, is it that difficult to send an AM?  We aren't bloating the blockchain, we are adding value to the POS system with forging rewards.  With public AM, all votes are there for the public to see, no manipulation.  Voting needs to cost 1 Nxt so people only vote on topics important to them.

Votes will be on the site too, even easier to see than going through all the messages in different accounts.

You suggest a complicated scheme with little to no advantage over a site. If the payment is involved, the site can do it too.

Are you developing the site as we speak?

I'm suggesting keeping our voting system within the Nxt blockchain, where it belongs, so it can be implemented into a client in the future.  You are the one talking about developing a website to handle all of this, that is more complicated then opening a Nxt account and sending AM's to that account.  
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1002
Simcoin Developer
Can't have something for nothing. How about a random number of captacha (or ReCapthca) problems between 25 and 35? Finding the right low number is the secret.

PoW in voting has the same fundamental drawback of wasting valuable resources.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
stupid (off-topic) question: where does "NRS" abbreviation come from?

NXT Reference Software
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1002
Simcoin Developer
Really, is it that difficult to send an AM?  We aren't bloating the blockchain, we are adding value to the POS system with forging rewards.  With public AM, all votes are there for the public to see, no manipulation.  Voting needs to cost 1 Nxt so people only vote on topics important to them.

Votes will be on the site too, even easier to see than going through all the messages in different accounts.

You suggest a complicated scheme with little to no advantage over a site. If the payment is involved, the site can do it too.
full member
Activity: 171
Merit: 100
ahh Voting!
one of my favorite discussions ;-)

Currently read many good aspects here!
I think we need to consider most of them in beta Client.
More and more it becomes clear that there is not THE ONE way for VS.
But there are different poll-categories, e.g "assets-polls" is different category as "best button color-polls".

The poll initiator should be able to choose boundary conditions depending on poll-topic.
The poll boundary conditions need to be transparent during run time.
To be more constructive lets try to collect some "Voting Models":

general options:
- min. permitted Account Deposit
- min. permitted Account age (Blocks)
- poll duration (Blocks)
- Voting Fee

Voting Models
- 1 NXT        ==   1 Vote  { vote = Func(accountBalance) }
- 1 Account  ==  1 Vote   { vote = Func(accountBalance) =  0.5 * accountBalance}
- 1 Account  ==  1 Vote   { Jcsarokrin Biometric Authenification: http://juliansarokin.com/100-years-the-future-of-government/}
- 1 NXT        ==   x Vote  { x = Func(accountBalance) =  polynom * accountBalance}
- coolmist  {votingweight = ( 1 / similarity ) ^ (4/3) * (accountbalance)^(1/3) * (accountage)^2 (timesvoted)^(3/2)}


no claim to completeness!


We need to discuss selection options too:
[true]    [false]    [abstention]
I think [abstention] provides an important information too.
E.g. a high count of [abstention] tells the poll creator "interesting question buddy, but not this way!!!" ...


Please extent the "general options" and "voting models" ideas!!!
It makes sense to collect all to keep the overview.

The discussion about "selection options"  was already started by Anon136 and CIYAM...



legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1134
We have not even agreed upon the one human == one vote concept.

In theory that sounds wonderful, but in reality that means that frictionlesscoin would have as much weight as klee or CfB.

At the risk of sounding like an extremist, I want to have people like klee and CfB to have a LOT more weight than frictionlesscoin. does anybody disagree with this?

We need to agree on a basic framework before we have any chance of actually defining a one size fits all voting system.

If you also feel that some people should be more equal than others, that means that we need some sort of weighted voting system. Maybe we need to first vote on how much weight each person has? The votes for this could be weighed by how much NXT a person has. Since nobody has enough NXT to skew the results too much, as long as the max weight possible is a decent multiple of an unknown acct, we won't have to worry about sock puppets.

We can set the weight of an unknown acct to be 1. So, if this is the direction we want to go, then the first question is what is the max weight a single account will have? 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, one million?

If we can agree on a max weight, then we can have a chance at figuring out what weight each person has. I think it should be a publicly visible vote by handle.

James
sr. member
Activity: 630
Merit: 262
This account was hacked. just recently got it back
I think the voting should be weighted with "PoS" aka 1 coin = 1 vote
Like NXT

It's not great in itself but it's the best way possible.
Like BCnext say : "a world with money can't be perfect"
But better then this.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1000
Iris scanning and or fingerprints for identification.

We can ask NSA for help.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
I think the voting should be weighted with "PoS" aka 1 coin = 1 vote
NXT is a PoS coin,  so it's logical.

It's not great in itself but it's the best way possible.
Like BCnext say : "a world with money can't be perfect"
legendary
Activity: 866
Merit: 1002
stupid (off-topic) question: where does "NRS" abbreviation come from?
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