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Topic: MasterCoin Buyer/Seller Thread - page 14. (Read 226688 times)

legendary
Activity: 882
Merit: 1002
January 14, 2014, 05:57:05 AM
(3) I think it's worth thinking about trying to do it in a way that is decentralized so 1 strong buyer won't be able to buy all. A rich buyer that is looking for a short term profit can do more "damage" to the market than J.R is currently doing.

Good point, although I'm not sure how that would be done. It's hard to prove one buy is different from another. Maybe we could identify ourselves with our exodus addresses? Have all initial buyers have a chance to buy more? At least that would be one way of verifying we are most likely separate buyers.

I don't think this is a good idea:
(1) Attracting new buyers is important
(2) It will feel less fair the majority of the MSC community (they are the ones mostly effected by the price drop - Exodus buyers are still making X10 their investment at the current market price)
(3) Exodus buyers themself (about 50 people) are holding roughly 45% of the total MSC.

Maybe a good idea is: only members registered prior 2014 will be able to take part. Rich people can try to buy older accounts but it takes effort and time thus making buying large sums harder.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME
January 14, 2014, 05:30:17 AM
I agree that a Dutch Auction is a good idea:
(1) Buyers will start fighting against each other to buy J.R MSC instead of J.R "chasing" them.

Exactly. It's the chasing the market down that causes so much panic.

Quote
(2) It will be over much quicker letting J.R to start working full time and stabilizing the market.
It will also feel more fair to people. Even I would be willing to buy more MSC at a certain price.
Quote
(3) I think it's worth thinking about trying to do it in a way that is decentralized so 1 strong buyer won't be able to buy all. A rich buyer that is looking for a short term profit can do more "damage" to the market than J.R is currently doing.

Good point, although I'm not sure how that would be done. It's hard to prove one buy is different from another. Maybe we could identify ourselves with our exodus addresses? Have all initial buyers have a chance to buy more? At least that would be one way of verifying we are most likely separate buyers.

legendary
Activity: 882
Merit: 1002
January 14, 2014, 05:11:08 AM
I agree that a Dutch Auction is a good idea:
(1) Buyers will start fighting against each other to buy J.R MSC instead of J.R "chasing" them.
(2) It will be over much quicker letting J.R to start working full time and stabilizing the market.
(3) I think it's worth thinking about trying to do it in a way that is decentralized so 1 strong buyer won't be able to buy all. A rich buyer that is looking for a short term profit can do more "damage" to the market than J.R is currently doing.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME
January 14, 2014, 05:01:59 AM
Hopefully the current price will be a window of opportunity for a few people who've been kicking themselves for missing out on the initial 1Exodus distribution. Smiley

Maybe it would be best to hold a public Dutch Auction to sell off the large block of MSC. An example of a Dutch Auction was the Google IPO.

A Dutch Auction is a good idea. Why not? Or sell them for like 2x or 4x the exodus price. You still make money, people feel like it's a great bargin, and mastercoin gets an even larger community.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
black swan hunter
January 14, 2014, 03:17:13 AM
Sure no problem.

Yes, the board was aware I would be selling (and in fact had been urging me to do so for some time). I don't think anybody was prepared for the way people panicked though. Ron (Ripper) had to jump on reddit and calm people's fears because I was offline at that time. He and I had been discussing my planned sale just a few hours before I announced it.

August 1st is when I qualify for long-term capital gains on my Mastercoins, and therefore I'm more willing to sell when we get there. I did not mean to imply that I would never change my price between now and then.

I REALLY want to work full-time on Mastercoin, and that is what is driving me to do this, painful though it is to see how the price has fallen. The price movement is simply what happens when somebody sells into very thin volume. Hopefully the current price will be a window of opportunity for a few people who've been kicking themselves for missing out on the initial 1Exodus distribution. Smiley

Maybe it would be best to hold a public Dutch Auction to sell off the large block of MSC. An example of a Dutch Auction was the Google IPO.
sr. member
Activity: 297
Merit: 250
January 14, 2014, 03:00:44 AM
If at last JR sold out his coins at exodus price, is it a good thing or bad thing for better distribution? Why people care the current price (when there's nothing even released) so much? I suppose Mastercoin is not developed for people to speculate in the short term. It's really ironic that people complain for high price (unfair, we need better distribution. Initial investor should not hoard and sell more in low price) and then complain again for low price (unfair, we need higher price. Initial investor should hold forever).

No matter what's the current price, in the long term the price of Mastercoin only depends on how many users are using its deprived products. How about forget about the current price and concentrate more on the progress of the project (the DEX, the wallet, ...). If there's nothing out in time, then no matter how high the current price it is, the Mastercoin will become worthless anyway.

+1

The master protocol's success has nothing to do with who owns its tokens as long as its tokens are distributed. JR selling his coins is actually good for the project as he holds an unhealthy amount as it stands. 
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
Bitcoin is new, makes sense to hodl.
January 14, 2014, 12:35:06 AM
it's just msc not listed in BTC-e

Clearly, there isn't enough MSC liquidity to support the price.

Compare these two coins:

5    Namecoin       $ 49,150,912   $ 6.34   7,758,492 NMC   $ 1,921,747   -2.20 %   
6    MasterCoin   $ 45,917,394   $ 81.53   563,162 MSC*   $ 66,636   -30.26 %   

Namecoin has traded over 2 million USD in one day.   Mastercoin can barely handle 66K USD in one day.

The difference between a 100% pre-mined coin and a conventional alt-coin is that the former isn't used to constant selling.

Conventional alt-coins always have sellers in the form of miners,  so the price is usually very close to equilibrium as compared to a coin like MSC.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
January 14, 2014, 12:17:27 AM
so when is this downtrend turning around?
when the man finish his show
legendary
Activity: 1151
Merit: 1003
January 13, 2014, 11:40:49 PM
OK, it was happened, when will the MSC rate reach previous value (0.02 BTC)?
legendary
Activity: 882
Merit: 1000
January 13, 2014, 11:16:57 PM
If at last JR sold out his coins at exodus price, is it a good thing or bad thing for better distribution? Why people care the current price (when there's nothing even released) so much? I suppose Mastercoin is not developed for people to speculate in the short term. It's really ironic that people complain for high price (unfair, we need better distribution. Initial investor should not hoard and sell more in low price) and then complain again for low price (unfair, we need higher price. Initial investor should hold forever).

No matter what's the current price, in the long term the price of Mastercoin only depends on how many users are using its deprived products. How about forget about the current price and concentrate more on the progress of the project (the DEX, the wallet, ...). If there's nothing out in time, then no matter how high the current price it is, the Mastercoin will become worthless anyway.
legendary
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Cryptotalk.org - Get paid for every post!
January 13, 2014, 11:07:12 PM
Clearly, there isn't enough MSC liquidity to support the price.

Compare these two coins:

5    Namecoin       $ 49,150,912   $ 6.34   7,758,492 NMC   $ 1,921,747   -2.20 %   
6    MasterCoin   $ 45,917,394   $ 81.53   563,162 MSC*   $ 66,636   -30.26 %   

Namecoin has traded over 2 million USD in one day.   Mastercoin can barely handle 66K USD in one day.

The difference between a 100% pre-mined coin and a conventional alt-coin is that the former isn't used to constant selling.

Conventional alt-coins always have sellers in the form of miners,  so the price is usually very close to equilibrium as compared to a coin like MSC.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
January 13, 2014, 10:42:17 PM
Here is what I feel will happens roughly :

if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

In my humble opinion, trading OTC will impact the market more than trading quietly on an exchange.

First, all trades impact the quantities available in the same way, if you sell 1000 MSC OTC, that will always be 1000 MSC that wont be bought on the market. There is no "if you dont trade on the exchange the price will not be impacted !".
Thats an economical fallacy; the price converges to the same value everywhere and the exchange is a part of the market in the same way that the OTC is.

Second, saying that you have X quantities to sell at Y prices is much worse than trading them little by little : As long as the market expect a bigger quantity to be traded, the price will correct itself until the price discovery process is finished. Thats like bill gates announcing that he will sell 1% of MSFT the next week. What huge holders are doing is that they pay brokers to liquidate the quantities as quietly as possible on the marketplaces.

Having said all that, I will add that this is only an opinion and that its really great that JR is commiting himself to Mastercoin full time Smiley

This is all fascinating to follow in term of economic theory

Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

JR, I'm sorry to point this out, but when you made the announcement 5 days ago, you wrote:
"I hope to sell 3-6% of my total MSC holdings (5000-10000 MSC). If I haven't sold them by August 1st 2014, I'll sell more aggressively.".
First, it would appear you didn't run the announcement by the Board. Ripper had to immediately start speaking on your behalf to clarify the message. It appears you ran solo, without analyzing what kind of message your announcement sends. This shows questionable judgement on your part.

Second, could you please explain why, when you just caused a panic sell 5 days ago, you cause another drop by forgetting your promise of keeping the prices you announced until August? Kindly explain your thought process, because I'm really at a loss. The founder should act in a predictable, altruistic way.

I would also suggest you do a session similar to Reddit's AMA, where the community can send you questions, and you actually answer them. This is the only ICT project I've ever been involved in where the leader is the least visible and most unavailable person in the project. It should be the other way around.

My apologies for the harsh words, J.R., but I think we deserve answers.


Sure no problem.

Yes, the board was aware I would be selling (and in fact had been urging me to do so for some time). I don't think anybody was prepared for the way people panicked though. Ron (Ripper) had to jump on reddit and calm people's fears because I was offline at that time. He and I had been discussing my planned sale just a few hours before I announced it.

August 1st is when I qualify for long-term capital gains on my Mastercoins, and therefore I'm more willing to sell when we get there. I did not mean to imply that I would never change my price between now and then.

I REALLY want to work full-time on Mastercoin, and that is what is driving me to do this, painful though it is to see how the price has fallen. The price movement is simply what happens when somebody sells into very thin volume. Hopefully the current price will be a window of opportunity for a few people who've been kicking themselves for missing out on the initial 1Exodus distribution. Smiley
you won't stop until you destroy the market? you really don't  known what  you are doing means ?  if  you relly want to sell, release a client ,give a big news ,people won't buy things that is droping price. you can check the volume of the market ,it's dying. no one dare  to buy before you finish .
bad english ,wish you can understand.
if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

very right!!!!
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1031
Rational Exuberance
January 13, 2014, 07:10:32 PM
Here is what I feel will happens roughly :

if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

In my humble opinion, trading OTC will impact the market more than trading quietly on an exchange.

First, all trades impact the quantities available in the same way, if you sell 1000 MSC OTC, that will always be 1000 MSC that wont be bought on the market. There is no "if you dont trade on the exchange the price will not be impacted !".
Thats an economical fallacy; the price converges to the same value everywhere and the exchange is a part of the market in the same way that the OTC is.

Second, saying that you have X quantities to sell at Y prices is much worse than trading them little by little : As long as the market expect a bigger quantity to be traded, the price will correct itself until the price discovery process is finished. Thats like bill gates announcing that he will sell 1% of MSFT the next week. What huge holders are doing is that they pay brokers to liquidate the quantities as quietly as possible on the marketplaces.

Having said all that, I will add that this is only an opinion and that its really great that JR is commiting himself to Mastercoin full time Smiley

This is all fascinating to follow in term of economic theory

Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

JR, I'm sorry to point this out, but when you made the announcement 5 days ago, you wrote:
"I hope to sell 3-6% of my total MSC holdings (5000-10000 MSC). If I haven't sold them by August 1st 2014, I'll sell more aggressively.".
First, it would appear you didn't run the announcement by the Board. Ripper had to immediately start speaking on your behalf to clarify the message. It appears you ran solo, without analyzing what kind of message your announcement sends. This shows questionable judgement on your part.

Second, could you please explain why, when you just caused a panic sell 5 days ago, you cause another drop by forgetting your promise of keeping the prices you announced until August? Kindly explain your thought process, because I'm really at a loss. The founder should act in a predictable, altruistic way.

I would also suggest you do a session similar to Reddit's AMA, where the community can send you questions, and you actually answer them. This is the only ICT project I've ever been involved in where the leader is the least visible and most unavailable person in the project. It should be the other way around.

My apologies for the harsh words, J.R., but I think we deserve answers.


Sure no problem.

Yes, the board was aware I would be selling (and in fact had been urging me to do so for some time). I don't think anybody was prepared for the way people panicked though. Ron (Ripper) had to jump on reddit and calm people's fears because I was offline at that time. He and I had been discussing my planned sale just a few hours before I announced it.

August 1st is when I qualify for long-term capital gains on my Mastercoins, and therefore I'm more willing to sell when we get there. I did not mean to imply that I would never change my price between now and then.

I REALLY want to work full-time on Mastercoin, and that is what is driving me to do this, painful though it is to see how the price has fallen. The price movement is simply what happens when somebody sells into very thin volume. Hopefully the current price will be a window of opportunity for a few people who've been kicking themselves for missing out on the initial 1Exodus distribution. Smiley
member
Activity: 77
Merit: 10
January 13, 2014, 06:43:59 PM
Here is what I feel will happens roughly :

if (JRprice == x)
{
     masterXchangePrice = x - 10%;
}

In my humble opinion, trading OTC will impact the market more than trading quietly on an exchange.

First, all trades impact the quantities available in the same way, if you sell 1000 MSC OTC, that will always be 1000 MSC that wont be bought on the market. There is no "if you dont trade on the exchange the price will not be impacted !".
Thats an economical fallacy; the price converges to the same value everywhere and the exchange is a part of the market in the same way that the OTC is.

Second, saying that you have X quantities to sell at Y prices is much worse than trading them little by little : As long as the market expect a bigger quantity to be traded, the price will correct itself until the price discovery process is finished. Thats like bill gates announcing that he will sell 1% of MSFT the next week. What huge holders are doing is that they pay brokers to liquidate the quantities as quietly as possible on the marketplaces.

Having said all that, I will add that this is only an opinion and that its really great that JR is commiting himself to Mastercoin full time Smiley

This is all fascinating to follow in term of economic theory

Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

JR, I'm sorry to point this out, but when you made the announcement 5 days ago, you wrote:
"I hope to sell 3-6% of my total MSC holdings (5000-10000 MSC). If I haven't sold them by August 1st 2014, I'll sell more aggressively.".
First, it would appear you didn't run the announcement by the Board. Ripper had to immediately start speaking on your behalf to clarify the message. It appears you ran solo, without analyzing what kind of message your announcement sends. This shows questionable judgement on your part.

Second, could you please explain why, when you just caused a panic sell 5 days ago, you cause another drop by forgetting your promise of keeping the prices you announced until August? Kindly explain your thought process, because I'm really at a loss. The founder should act in a predictable, altruistic way.

I would also suggest you do a session similar to Reddit's AMA, where the community can send you questions, and you actually answer them. This is the only ICT project I've ever been involved in where the leader is the least visible and most unavailable person in the project. It should be the other way around.

My apologies for the harsh words, J.R., but I think we deserve answers.
full member
Activity: 223
Merit: 100
January 13, 2014, 06:34:05 PM

Yeah, by doing this so publicly, I'm basically ensuring that the price drop happens BEFORE I sell, rather than my sell causing the price to drop. If I had sold privately, the price would have still gone down, and nobody would have known why until somebody noticed in the block chain that J.R.'s coins were being sold, potentially causing a HUGE panic.

It seems clear that I would have done a LOT better doing this privately, without telling anybody what I was doing until somebody noticed my coins being sold, but this way seems more ethical to me.

I agree with you. Thats commendable
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 502
January 13, 2014, 06:08:30 PM
so when is this downtrend turning around?

Seems it has stopped on 0.1 bottom.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME
January 13, 2014, 04:43:50 PM

Still quite new to the economics of this, but am I right in saying no one will want to buy now that you have admitted to wanting to dump thousands of coins?

No.
A lot of people have sold lots of coins in the past weeks so a lot of people have bought them.
JR is selling a large amount, it has impacted the price, but there are probably a lot of people ready to enter the market or lower the average price they got in.

I think we drastically over estimate how many people are read/willing/interested or even know about, this market.


Out of the coins that required an IPO, mastercoin is the most lackluster. No one really cares for this coin.

Yeah, as if you've been around long enough to even know.......

Edit to respond to your un-marked stealth edit:

Quote
I've invested in most of coins with a fresh architecture, but i will never invest in MSC. It's trying to compete with LTC for a bitcoin secondary.

Thanks for proving me right. :-)
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1124
Invest in your knowledge
January 13, 2014, 04:41:23 PM

Still quite new to the economics of this, but am I right in saying no one will want to buy now that you have admitted to wanting to dump thousands of coins?

No.
A lot of people have sold lots of coins in the past weeks so a lot of people have bought them.
JR is selling a large amount, it has impacted the price, but there are probably a lot of people ready to enter the market or lower the average price they got in.

I think we drastically over estimate how many people are read/willing/interested or even know about, this market.


Out of the coins that required an IPO, mastercoin is the most lackluster. No one really cares for this coin.

I've invested in most of coins with a fresh architecture, but i will never invest in MSC. It's trying to compete with LTC for a bitcoin secondary.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME
January 13, 2014, 04:39:18 PM

Still quite new to the economics of this, but am I right in saying no one will want to buy now that you have admitted to wanting to dump thousands of coins?

No.
A lot of people have sold lots of coins in the past weeks so a lot of people have bought them.
JR is selling a large amount, it has impacted the price, but there are probably a lot of people ready to enter the market or lower the average price they got in.

I think we drastically over estimate how many people are read/willing/interested or even know about, this market.
o3u
sr. member
Activity: 393
Merit: 250
Money comes, money goes
January 13, 2014, 04:34:59 PM
so when is this downtrend turning around?
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