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Topic: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address” - page 94. (Read 448462 times)

hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
I've opened up the MSC giveaway thread again. Details here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=post;topic=272577.0

If you want a tiny amount of MSC to play with, go check it out.

It seems you got that link wrong, it has "action=post" in it (or is that on purpose?)
Here the post: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/paused-giveaway-for-mastercoins-the-new-protocol-layer-built-on-bitcoin-272577
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1031
Rational Exuberance
I've opened up the MSC giveaway thread again. Details here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/paused-giveaway-for-mastercoins-the-new-protocol-layer-built-on-bitcoin-272577

If you want a tiny amount of MSC to play with, go check it out.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1010
he who has the gold makes the rules
hey Gals and Guys,

I am writing the 2nd weekly newsletter tonight and if you have any suggestions to include anything from the previous week please let me know.

For your reference the blog is here:

http://blog.mastercoin.org/
legendary
Activity: 2478
Merit: 1362
Hi all,

I just wanted to update you guys with the summary of the first board meeting of the Mastercoin Foundation.

Cheers,
Ron

Awesome, love the insight. Agenda and the decisions don't match up though, kinda hard to match them right now.

The Agenda is a partial list of the stuff we brought into the discussion (not everybody prepared it on the doc, and some things arose mid-discussion).

I'll help with the matching:

Agenda:
1. We decided that the meetings are public.
2. We haven't decided on that, waiting to hear a marketing plan from Social Circle.
3. No actions items here, I just updated updated the board about our blog. We do also plan to review our Twitter & Facebook channels (David opened these a while back), I hope in the next few days.
4.  Regarding Roadmap - Willett is currently managing the project, and doing a great job at it. I suggested we pour some content to our Trello and think about the long term direction, but Willett is just too occupied to do it right now, and I don't believe it's productive to "try and twist his arm about it". We might formulate a roadmap in the future, but right now the focus as I see it is on completing features, not long-term planning.
5. It was decided that bounties are paid in whatever currency the developers/bounty collectors wish.
6. I updated the board briefly about the Nxt alt currency - no action items here.

Hope that helps.
Ron

Thanks for the update. I'm following this closely.
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1003
Ron Gross
Hi all,

I just wanted to update you guys with the summary of the first board meeting of the Mastercoin Foundation.

Cheers,
Ron

Awesome, love the insight. Agenda and the decisions don't match up though, kinda hard to match them right now.

The Agenda is a partial list of the stuff we brought into the discussion (not everybody prepared it on the doc, and some things arose mid-discussion).

I'll help with the matching:

Agenda:
1. We decided that the meetings are public.
2. We haven't decided on that, waiting to hear a marketing plan from Social Circle.
3. No actions items here, I just updated updated the board about our blog. We do also plan to review our Twitter & Facebook channels (David opened these a while back), I hope in the next few days.
4.  Regarding Roadmap - Willett is currently managing the project, and doing a great job at it. I suggested we pour some content to our Trello and think about the long term direction, but Willett is just too occupied to do it right now, and I don't believe it's productive to "try and twist his arm about it". We might formulate a roadmap in the future, but right now the focus as I see it is on completing features, not long-term planning.
5. It was decided that bounties are paid in whatever currency the developers/bounty collectors wish.
6. I updated the board briefly about the Nxt alt currency - no action items here.

Hope that helps.
Ron
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
Thanks for fleshing this out with me Tachikoma Smiley  For the rest of you guys, the relevant bit is below - if you want more detail that's on the coding thread.  Masterchest.info will get a code change to reflect this in a day or two.

It's all in the interpretation - just because the 'odd one out is change' method was no longer reliable as the outputs no longer had to be the same amount, that doesn't mean I can't use it to decode and validate a transaction in some cases.  In other words, my implementation is being too strict/literal.  I thus consider this transaction valid and will amend my code to reflect this Smiley
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
Hi,
Yesterday I made a transaction of 16.5 MSC.

The transaction shows that the mastercoin explorer : http://mastercoin-explorer.com/transactions/9e44d015f0aec437e0ad4e5c4d3dd474918f6dac01fe64edf339d71c09c0d398
But it doesnt show on the mastercoin chest : https://masterchest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=19b5BiXWZERFoCNhVKiYDf9i829P1W1wiE

What could be the problem? I have been waiting for a day but it still not changed.


Thanks-
Jeroen

Please read Zathras reply above.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
Hi,
Yesterday I made a transaction of 16.5 MSC.

The transaction shows that the mastercoin explorer : http://mastercoin-explorer.com/transactions/9e44d015f0aec437e0ad4e5c4d3dd474918f6dac01fe64edf339d71c09c0d398
But it doesnt show on the mastercoin chest : https://masterchest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=19b5BiXWZERFoCNhVKiYDf9i829P1W1wiE

What could be the problem? I have been waiting for a day but it still not changed.


Thanks-
Jeroen
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
I've checked it out and fixed it, your transaction shows up on mastercoin-explorer now.

It will probably show up on Masterchest as well since I can't find anything wrong with it.

Please understand that we are currently working hard on a new encoding standard which requires us to reparse the data a lot, during these times our sites might not miss some transactions or perhaps not display them correctly. This is all very cutting edge software so things might go wonky from time to time.

Sorry guys have to be quick - back to back meetings today.

Long story short according to the current rules that transaction is not valid due to ambiguous sequence numbers, this is why masterchest.info throws the transaction out.

19b5BiXWZERFoCNhVKiYDf9i829P1W1wiE has a sequence number of 94
19UjqqjXmQxyyn4xStA7mWXVkzXwVDgu7Z has a sequence number of 93
19feAR37pguLwDyEMc8oiW2WT4esrgR5z6 has a sequence number of 95

Having all the outputs be the same amount is merely a convenience for identifying the change address. I'm fine with a less strict implementation as long as it is still possible to identify the change address.

So I removed the requirement for outputs to be the same amount to allow for multisig outputs no longer meeting said requirement.  So as it stands now I no longer evaluate what the value is of each vout, only the sequence numbers matter.

I think we need some further discussion on backwards compatibility for these Class A transactions.  Perhaps we need to re-introduce the 'same output amount' rule as a requirement just for Class A transactions as we can then use the amounts to help identify change as per the original spec - at the moment there seems to be some ambiguity around Class A transaction validity between our implementations and we need to clear this up.  You can probably understand now why I'm putting so much effort into having these rules explicitly defined and documented Smiley  I do concur that random chance of sequence number collisions should not be a factor in transaction validity.

None of this is an issue in multisig as we require change to be from the sender as a method of removing address ambiguity.

Could I please suggest the parties involved in this transaction just hold for a little, while the development team have a discussion around Class A transaction validity.

Thanks! Smiley

EDIT: for clarity
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
I've checked it out and fixed it, your transaction shows up on mastercoin-explorer now.

It will probably show up on Masterchest as well since I can't find anything wrong with it.

Please understand that we are currently working hard on a new encoding standard which requires us to reparse the data a lot, during these times our sites might not miss some transactions or perhaps not display them correctly. This is all very cutting edge software so things might go wonky from time to time.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
Tachikoma and Zathras: could you have a look into this?!
I had a deal to sell 16.5 MSC to jeroenn13 (maxmint acting as our escrow) I already sent them to his address:
Sender address:    19feAR37pguLwDyEMc8oiW2WT4esrgR5z6
Receiver address:  19b5BiXWZERFoCNhVKiYDf9i829P1W1wiE
Here is the raw transaction of my sending visible in the bitcoin blockchain:
https://blockchain.info/tx/9e44d015f0aec437e0ad4e5c4d3dd474918f6dac01fe64edf339d71c09c0d398
But the tx and balance changes are not shown in mastercoin-explorer and masterchest both, and even worse, the receiver's address shows 500 MSC balance in mastercoin-explorer, but shows 600 MSC in masterchest. Could you look into this and clarify what is happening?

I see it is fixed at the mastercoin-explorer now.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
Tachikoma and Zathras: could you have a look into this?!
I had a deal to sell 16.5 MSC to jeroenn13 (maxmint acting as our escrow) I already sent them to his address:
Sender address:    19feAR37pguLwDyEMc8oiW2WT4esrgR5z6
Receiver address:  19b5BiXWZERFoCNhVKiYDf9i829P1W1wiE
Here is the raw transaction of my sending visible in the bitcoin blockchain:
https://blockchain.info/tx/9e44d015f0aec437e0ad4e5c4d3dd474918f6dac01fe64edf339d71c09c0d398
But the tx and balance changes are not shown in mastercoin-explorer and masterchest both, and even worse, the receiver's address shows 500 MSC balance in mastercoin-explorer, but shows 600 MSC in masterchest. Could you look into this and clarify what is happening?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Expert Computer Geek
Say for instance you wanted to do box office futures on Colored Coin, how would you do it in a completely decentralized manner? You say it's possible so please describe?

I don't think that this thread is a place to discuss colored coins. If you want to discuss them, please go into one of colored coins threads, to a mailing list or to a subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/coloredcoin ).

I will give you a very brief answer here (it is about prediction market when people can be on YES/NO outcomes; futures market can be implemented in a similar way):

1. we need to create colored coins which will be used as a medium of exchange on a prediction market
2. to enter a bet one needs to create a transaction of a special form (which includes information about the bet)
3. coins which represent bets can be traded on the market
4. when outcome is known, settlement can be made there are two ways to do it:
5. one is to buy coins which bet on the opposite outcome, and having coins which bet both on YES and NO one can cancel a bet and get normal coins
6. the other is to force settlement with a specific outcome, in that case this settlement is recorded in coin's history and can be seen by anyone
7. if someone forces a wrong outcome, other market participants consider his coin worthless
8. so there is a strong incentive to remain honest and record only correct outcomes

This is quite a bit more messy than a centralized prediction market, but can work, I guess...





nice ~ just what we need another layer for dark pools and NSS to exploit~ how will this interact with the DTC? Does anyone here even know what i'm talking about? LOL Cool zzz
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
Hi all,

I just wanted to update you guys with the summary of the first board meeting of the Mastercoin Foundation.

Cheers,
Ron

Awesome, love the insight. Agenda and the decisions don't match up though, kinda hard to match them right now.
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1003
Ron Gross
Hi all,

I just wanted to update you guys with the summary of the first board meeting of the Mastercoin Foundation.

Cheers,
Ron
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1033
And this is the problem with Colored Coins. It's far more complicated than Mastercoin. I think most people can figure out how Mastercoin works with escrows controlling the supply of the user currencies.

I think people are seeing my opinions and thinking I prefer Mastercoin because it will make people rich. People are going to get rich from Colored Coin or Bitshares so that doesn't matter much. What matters is that Mastercoin is very easy to understand, elegant, easy to explain. Bitshares is a similar design to Mastercoin and also easy to explain. Colored Coin is something that every time I ask about it I get different explanations for how it's supposed to work. It's abstract to the point that only the developers seem to truly understand how it works and that is one of the reasons why I don't have a lot of faith in it.

Look, again, colored coins is not a concrete product, it is a concept. We now develop a software toolkit which allows one to develop concrete products on top of this concept.

If you take a concrete product, say, a stock market, it might be relatively simple under the hood, i.e. coins represent ownership of shares, and people can trade them. What can be simpler? But, of course, end users won't need to know how it works under the hood, they will just interact with user interface, hopefully it will be simple enough.

However, something like decentralized prediction market requires much more complex machinery.

Anyway, you're comparing apples to oranges. Mastercoin is supposed to be a single protocol, while colored coins is a family of protocols.

What matters is that Mastercoin is very easy to understand, elegant, easy to explain.

This just isn't true. The idea is simple: there is a list of signed messages and all clients interpret them and arrive to the same state if they use same rules.

But if you go a bit deeper, however, it gets murky: what are rules? How are they updated? How are reorganizations handled?

but it's a lot more complicated, and complexity is a bad thing when you're trying to reduce risks and make things secure.

Yes. The thing is, you ignore complexity of Mastercoin protocol just assuming that escrows take care of everything.

On the other hand, the good thing about colored coins is that each color is independent. And thus if there is some sort of a problem with decentralized prediction market, users of other colors will be unaffected: they are completely separate.

The only problem I can see with Colored Coin is that it would have to get it's value from the currency it's running on top of.

Ugh, you still do not understand what colored coins are about. Let's consider a simple example:

Some venue wants to sell concert tickets in form of colored coins. It will issue them (creating a new color) and sell them for Bitcoins. Now, what is value of these tickets? Is it tied to Bitcoin?

Well, no. It is tied to value of concert. Obviously, tickets become worthless after the concert.

So this is what colored coins are about: it is a tool which allows people to issue tokens which can be used to represent anything people want to represent. There is no such thing as "value of colored coins" in general, as each different kind of token has its own value.

There is also a possibility to associate additional properties and rules with these tokens, but currently it is only a theoretic possibility.


Well, this is an old document which just explains the idea on one particular example.

Here's the new specification: https://github.com/bitcoinx/colored-coin-tools/wiki/colored_coins_intro

Yes, it is quite a bit abstract. That's the whole point: we do not enforce one particular vision.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Say for instance you wanted to do box office futures on Colored Coin, how would you do it in a completely decentralized manner? You say it's possible so please describe?

I don't think that this thread is a place to discuss colored coins. If you want to discuss them, please go into one of colored coins threads, to a mailing list or to a subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/coloredcoin ).

I will give you a very brief answer here (it is about prediction market when people can be on YES/NO outcomes; futures market can be implemented in a similar way):

1. we need to create colored coins which will be used as a medium of exchange on a prediction market
2. to enter a bet one needs to create a transaction of a special form (which includes information about the bet)
3. coins which represent bets can be traded on the market
4. when outcome is known, settlement can be made there are two ways to do it:
5. one is to buy coins which bet on the opposite outcome, and having coins which bet both on YES and NO one can cancel a bet and get normal coins
6. the other is to force settlement with a specific outcome, in that case this settlement is recorded in coin's history and can be seen by anyone
7. if someone forces a wrong outcome, other market participants consider his coin worthless
8. so there is a strong incentive to remain honest and record only correct outcomes

This is quite a bit more messy than a centralized prediction market, but can work, I guess...




And this is the problem with Colored Coins. It's far more complicated than Mastercoin. I think most people can figure out how Mastercoin works with escrows controlling the supply of the user currencies.

I think people are seeing my opinions and thinking I prefer Mastercoin because it will make people rich. People are going to get rich from Colored Coin or Bitshares so that doesn't matter much. What matters is that Mastercoin is very easy to understand, elegant, easy to explain. Bitshares is a similar design to Mastercoin and also easy to explain. Colored Coin is something that every time I ask about it I get different explanations for how it's supposed to work. It's abstract to the point that only the developers seem to truly understand how it works and that is one of the reasons why I don't have a lot of faith in it.

From the description you give it does seem like Colored Coin can allow for these sorts of transactions, but it's a lot more complicated, and complexity is a bad thing when you're trying to reduce risks and make things secure. There are competitors such as Bitshares and Hops, and in either of those cases I have a better idea of how they work than Colored Coin.

The only problem I can see with Colored Coin is that it would have to get it's value from the currency it's running on top of. Bitshares can be mined so it can get it's value independent from Bitcoin. Mastercoins can be bought with Litecoins, the USD or you can work for them once again giving them independent value from the currency it runs on top of.

I think isolation improves security because it removes a single point of failure. If Bitcoin were to collapse in price due to speculative attack and everyone has to use Bitcoins to deal with Colored Coins then that could be a problem. But perhaps my understanding of Colored Coin is insufficient. If I could turn my Litecoins into Colored Coins and interact with the Bitcoin market so that our implementations are interchangeable then that would make it very useful to me. I would have to view Colored Coin as a language to communicate value between different cryptocurrencies and clients and if that functionality doesn't exist it needs to because there will be several different Colored Coin implementations causing confusion.

References
Colored Coin(BitcoinX)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AnkP_cVZTCMLIzw4DvsW6M8Q2JC0lIzrTLuoWu2z1BE/edit
Quote
Genesis transaction

The idea is to use a Genesis transaction to create a new currency

The genesis transaction has a certain amount of bitcoin that was transferred in it. this BTC amount will be used to create all the value in the currency.
The currency ancestor is the address the amount was transferred to and will control the initial distribution of the currency

Thin “currency clients” are then created with a special method for calculating balance.

first we find all the transaction that their last address is the client address. we take each of these transaction and crawl the block chain to see if this transaction was generated from the genesis transaction.
if so we multiply the transaction amount with the initial split* and we get the user balance

* initial split: is the decision to split 0.00001BTC = 1 Currency (example)


the distribution of this “currency client” then creates a community around a specific Genesis transaction.  this creates a separation of those “Colored bitcoins” from all other bitcoin and therefore the mini-eco-system can have a floating value on top of the bitcoin network utilizing its infrastructure

Bitshares
http://static.squarespace.com/static/51df1ba4e4b08840dcfce197/t/5212ca63e4b0348bfd2276c6/1376963171729/BitShares%20White%20Paper%20(2).pdf
Quote
Creating BitUSD
BitUSD  is  a  BitShares­derived  BitAsset  that  must  be  created  against  a  valid  bid  and  post
collateral  in  BitShares  equal  to  the  value  of  bid.  If  the  bid  is  accepted,  the  collateral  and
purchase price are held  by the network  until the BitUSD is redeemed by repurchasing it.  The
block  chain  will  then  redirect  the  dividends  of  the  collateral  to  all  BitUSD holders. BitUSD is
entirely fungible and all dividends from all BitShares backing all BitUSD are pooled to determine
the dividends (in BitShares) paid to the holders of BitUSD.
The BitShares backing the BitUSD may be spent in two ways:
6 of 27BitShares
A Peer­to­Peer Polymorphic Digital Asset Exchange (P2P­PDAE)
1. by providing BitUSD as input to the transaction and redeeming it.
2. by a miner who enforces a margin call when the value of the backing falls to less than
150% of the value of the BitUSD.
Margin calls are enforced by the miners when they put together a block.  When a miner enforces
a margin call, he uses the backing BitShares to repurchase the BitUSD and thereby redeeming
it.  After BitUSD is redeemed it  no longer exists.  Any leftover  collateral  is sent to an address
owned by the short position (not kept by the miner).
If the miner is forced to exercise a margin call, the network assess a 5% transaction fee in order
to motivate market participants to proactively manage their margin.   If the market moves so fast
that the margin is insufficient, then the market price of the BitUSD may fall slightly below parity
for a short time if there is insufficient demand for BitUSD relative to the supply of sellers.

Mastercoin
https://e33ec872-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/2ndbtcwpaper/MasterCoin%20Specification%201.1.pdf
Quote
The escrow fund operates like a battery on the power grid, charging when there is excess energy then
discharging where there isn't enough. When there are too few GoldCoins (GoldCoin price is too high),
the escrow fund releases new GoldCoins, and the escrow-battery “charges” by holding MasterCoins in
escrow. When there are too many GoldCoins (GoldCoin price is too low), the escrow fund purchases
some of the excess GoldCoins, thereby “discharging” the escrow-battery as it releases the stored
MasterCoins.

Hops
https://anonfiles.com/file/14d9ed0ebc60f2fc30bc596c49e7b61f
Quote
Incentives for PoS Miners
The value of hopdollars and hopbits is backed by an option to convert these
bonds into hops at a conversion rate determined 4 to 7 months in the future. The
conversion rate for both bonds adjusts so that the market prices of hopdollars
and hopbits track the market prices of real world USD and bitcoin. Adjustments
to the conversion rate are based on data input into the blockchain. PoS miners
submit these data as they mine blocks. PoS miners are expected to report
accurate data due to their ...nancial stake in Hop’s success. By submitting
accurate data PoS miners can ensure that 1 hopdollar trades for 1 USD and 1
hopbit trades for 1 bitcoin except under extraordinary circumstances.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 510

Same place as MC. Their value is from their usefulness. You don't HAVE to add another currency on top of another one for it to be useful. Yes, no one will INVEST in CC because they are just tiny bits of BTC. It's not meant for making people rich. It's an add on for BTC, making BTC more valuable.
All value comes from human beings, not from "pure math" or "pure code". Math is beautiful, but the value of beauty comes directly from the minds of human beings.

This means all technical systems such as Bitcoin gain their value from the psychological properties of human beings. Gold is valuable because people like shiny things. Sugar is valuable because people like sweet things. You cannot separate psychology from value.

There are a lot of rich people who need a place to park their money and collect interest. Mastercoin price isn't the same as the value. The Mastercoin protocol isn't valuable for anything today but the price is going up entirely on speculation on how much value it would have once it's finished. That is speculation and we all agree that currently Mastercoin price is based on speculation, but once they have more of the protocol implemented and we can use it then it wont be speculation anymore and it will be useful.

In the competition of which technology is more useful, if a technology allows you to collect interest it's more useful than a technology which merely holds your money in escrow for example. If a technology allows people to get rich it will be considered more useful to them than a technology which doesn't do that because greed (psychology) is the driver of the stock market, derivatives, and all of that.

So if greedy people have a choice where to put their money they'll put their wealth in the place where their wealth is most likely to increase. This is why I make a point that rich people will need a place to park their wealth and put their wealth to use for them and honestly the whole economy needs that in order to grow in general. If there are no profits there wont be any spending.

That makes no sense whatsoever. If anything Mastercoin is more a speculative currency than Bitcoin. Mastercoins aren't tied to anything. Just like Bitcoins. Their value goes up and down.

Mastercoin is not a currency. Right now it's more speculative because the protocol isn't built yet so I wont argue that the current price is entirely based around speculation. I do not believe the current price is a bubble though because there has been consistent progress and right now the consensus is that it is likely going to work. When the consensus changes to it's not likely to work then the price will get cheaper.

But once it does work it will not be speculation anymore and that is when it becomes more useful than Bitcoin. Once again Mastercoin isn't a currency, Bitcoin is a currency.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1033
Say for instance you wanted to do box office futures on Colored Coin, how would you do it in a completely decentralized manner? You say it's possible so please describe?

I don't think that this thread is a place to discuss colored coins. If you want to discuss them, please go into one of colored coins threads, to a mailing list or to a subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/coloredcoin ).

I will give you a very brief answer here (it is about prediction market when people can be on YES/NO outcomes; futures market can be implemented in a similar way):

1. we need to create colored coins which will be used as a medium of exchange on a prediction market
2. to enter a bet one needs to create a transaction of a special form (which includes information about the bet)
3. coins which represent bets can be traded on the market
4. when outcome is known, settlement can be made there are two ways to do it:
5. one is to buy coins which bet on the opposite outcome, and having coins which bet both on YES and NO one can cancel a bet and get normal coins
6. the other is to force settlement with a specific outcome, in that case this settlement is recorded in coin's history and can be seen by anyone
7. if someone forces a wrong outcome, other market participants consider his coin worthless
8. so there is a strong incentive to remain honest and record only correct outcomes

This is quite a bit more messy than a centralized prediction market, but can work, I guess...


sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
The problem with Colored Coin is what do I do if I'm holding a bunch of Litecoins and the price of Litecoins are collapsing while the price of Bitcoins are going up?  I don't want to buy Bitcoins because the price of Bitcoins could collapse back down again soon after I buy it causing me to lose money. So enter Mastercoin, I could buy a bunch of Mastercoins and know for sure the price will be going up and will be more stable than Bitcoins.

You don't know that for sure, it is just blind optimism.
Mastercoins are no more guaranteed to increase in value than anything else.
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