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Topic: MicroStrategy Buys $250M in Bitcoin, Calling the Crypto ‘Superior to Cash’ - page 23. (Read 18566 times)

legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
Reading various Tweets recently, there is a lot of chatter about Microstrategy having to post additional collateral at the 13,500 USD level, apparently with dire consequences.

Nothing at all.
Microstrategy has enough bitcoins to post as collateral for those loans. This is more than a transaction moving those bitcoins into a segregated wallet. The only consequence is those coins won’t be immediately available for sell. But this is, of course, something Microstrategy is not interested in.

Yeah.. It may be a little unclear, because there could have been some financial circumstances that were not outlined very specifically by Saylor and/or MSTR regarding the liquidation point of some of MSTR's loans... but it makes sense that MSTR would post more collateral.. because initially when the BTC prices were in the upper $30ks, Saylor was saying no problem because the collateral then posted had MSTR's loan protected all the way down to some price point in the $21ks, and few folks were then thinking that the BTC price would get down into the $21ks - so maybe now the idea was that Saylor/MSTR wanted to make sure that they post additional collateral in order that they are protected down to $13,500 - which seems understandable that they are going to want to continue to add to their collateral in order that their outstanding loans are covered.. while at the same time not necessarily wanting to encumber currently unencumbered BTC by placing it as collateral (which largely means giving keys to some other parties.. and we have recently seen that some other parties have not been very responsible in their holding of the keys of their clients, related to a variety of crypto assets - so not just BTC custodians - and even witnessing some otherwise responsible custodians get caught into situations where they might have lost or absconded with the coins of someone else).

Posting collateral seems a better option than either getting liquidated or having to sell BTC in order to pay off the loan with BTC prices way lower than the price in which the loan had been taken out.

I am sure that the situation is stressful for Saylor and MSTR - but likely not as stressful as some of the seeming exaggerations that come out with assertions of loose facts that are put out as if there is some kind of an inside scoop - and surely the BTC price dropping further than expected is no comfort to MSTR's actual BTC but also the fact that the value of their company (price of their stock) is going down at the same time - so options get removed from the table - while at the same time, I recall a couple of months ago that Saylor/MSTR had gotten approval and announced a line of credit that was in the ballpark of $200 million that it could use for business operations and/or buying bitcoin and/or any reason that it wanted to use such line of credit, and I cannot recall hearing that any of that money having had been used and it seems to me to be likely that the money would still be available.
sr. member
Activity: 1736
Merit: 306
Reading various Tweets recently, there is a lot of chatter about Microstrategy having to post additional collateral at the 13,500 USD level, apparently with dire consequences.

Nothing at all.
Microstrategy has enough bitcoins to post as collateral for those loans. This is more than a transaction moving those bitcoins into a segregated wallet. The only consequence is those coins won’t be immediately available for sell. But this is, of course, something Microstrategy is not interested in.

I don't know how true but I read Microstrategy lost big time in the recent outburst between Binance and FTX.
From what I see they say they are in a big loss of over $1.8 billion dollars, I came across it while scanning down over the internet some few day, I would love to know of same news was read. Since then he hasn't bought any Bitcoin. How bad did the outbreak hit Microstrategy Bitcoin holding's.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Reading various Tweets recently, there is a lot of chatter about Microstrategy having to post additional collateral at the 13,500 USD level, apparently with dire consequences.

Nothing at all.
Microstrategy has enough bitcoins to post as collateral for those loans. This is more than a transaction moving those bitcoins into a segregated wallet. The only consequence is those coins won’t be immediately available for sell. But this is, of course, something Microstrategy is not interested in.
legendary
Activity: 2618
Merit: 1504
I am sure that these conclusions are based not on facts, but on assumptions, some of which are erroneous.
For example, the statement "...virtual currencies that are issued by the authorities are unstable and doomed to failure, and that Bitcoin is superior to them due to its being tied to a lack of time and energy..." is just the current state of affairs when mining requires a lot of time and electric energy. It cannot be argued that this will continue to happen, for example, I do not exclude the emergence of disproportionately more powerful, in terms of performance, miners that will consume much less energy. As a minimum, this assumption destroys the previous one. And if we talk about technologies, then there are no guarantees that the cryptoalgorithms put into the base of Bitcoin are reliable and really crypto-resistant ....

Of course, you are right, nothing can be ruled out in the future, but for now an increase in power is possible only with an increase in energy intensity, although IBM has already introduced a 433 qubit quantum compute and is going to introduce a Condor processor for 1121 qubits next year, and Flamingo for 1386 qubits is also planned for 2024, but for now the use of quantum computers in mining is being considered just as an experiment.
legendary
Activity: 3752
Merit: 1864
Michael Saylor commented on a rather large article from @dergigi with Bitcoin Is Digital Scarcity where the author proves the undoubted advantage of bitcoin over virtual currencies, citing the main theses that Bitcoin is a digital element in a digital environment created and supported by physical processes, therefore it is reliable money that naturally appeared in the digital world.
While virtual currencies, such as in-game currencies and fiat currencies, are not uncommon because neither time nor energy is required to create them.

Saylor agreeing just mentions that.the virtual currencies that the authorities issue are unstable and doomed to failure, and that Bitcoin surpasses them because of its binding to a shortage of time and energy and it is the best form of money.


https://twitter.com/saylor/status/1579194776301473792





I am sure that these conclusions are based not on facts, but on assumptions, some of which are erroneous.
For example, the statement "...virtual currencies that are issued by the authorities are unstable and doomed to failure, and that Bitcoin is superior to them due to its being tied to a lack of time and energy..." is just the current state of affairs when mining requires a lot of time and electric energy. It cannot be argued that this will continue to happen, for example, I do not exclude the emergence of disproportionately more powerful, in terms of performance, miners that will consume much less energy. As a minimum, this assumption destroys the previous one. And if we talk about technologies, then there are no guarantees that the cryptoalgorithms put into the base of Bitcoin are reliable and really crypto-resistant ....
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Maybe it’s too early to call, but this dump meant Microstrategy will have to set a said as impairment a good amount of money:



This 15,500 low meant another 190 millions of Bitcoin impairments.

legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
And, since MSTR is a public company, we end up getting to see a lot of details that we might otherwise be able to see - which in some sense should be a positive to be able to learn from how largely open MSTR (and Saylor) have decided to be in regards to MSTR's bitcoin strategies - and surely Saylor has been going overboard with the extent of his public disclosures in regards to MSTR's BTC strategies, and he surely seems to be attempting to use that openness to his advantage - which seems to be beneficial to bitcoin too (to the extent that bitcoin gives any shits).

Don't get me wrong here, I am super positive about Saylor investing in Bitcoin, but in the end, of course, Bitcoin will be most beneficial to Microstrategy, not the other way around.

hahahahahaha

You caught me with my panties down.   Embarrassed

I guess I was speaking loosely.. and for sure in bitcoin we have a lot of symbiotic relationships.. and surely, in sum, bitcoin gives no shits about Saylor or no Saylor.

Hyperbitcoinisation will happen eventually, Microstrategy or not.
And believe me when I say it's not Bitcoin's role providing you with a more fair society, whatever it means.

That's true.  Bitcoin gives no shits about fair or not fair, but coincidentally, bitcoin happens to be designed in such a way that central aspects of society have potential and incentives to "play" in more fair ways because the various unfairnesses of the Cantillon effect of the money printer becomes less and less effective - since "bitcoin no play like dat."

Bitcoin is there, a low-hanging fruit waiting to be picked up. And to do so you don't even need privilege, violence or power like it used to be in the previous world.

There is some truth in what you say in regards to some bringing back of more basic values from the past - however, at the same time, there are a lot of advantages that is likely going to come to people who are in a position to figure bitcoin out early and to accumulate some of it earlier rather than later...  at least so far that seems to be the projected direction  in terms of advantages to those who both figure it out early and also who take actions in order to attempt to align themselves with investing into bitcoin (i.e. time, energies, money).

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23

And, since MSTR is a public company, we end up getting to see a lot of details that we might otherwise be able to see - which in some sense should be a positive to be able to learn from how largely open MSTR (and Saylor) have decided to be in regards to MSTR's bitcoin strategies - and surely Saylor has been going overboard with the extent of his public disclosures in regards to MSTR's BTC strategies, and he surely seems to be attempting to use that openness to his advantage - which seems to be beneficial to bitcoin too (to the extent that bitcoin gives any shits).


Don't get me wrong here, I am super positive about Saylor investing in Bitcoin, but in the end, of course, Bitcoin will be most beneficial to Microstrategy, not the other way around.

Hyperbitcoinisation will happen eventually, Microstrategy or not.
And believe me when I say it's not Bitcoin's role providing you with a more fair society, whatever it means.
Bitcoin is there, a low-hanging fruit waiting to be picked up. And to do so you don't even need privilege, violence or power like it used to be in the previous world.
legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
The only thing that scares me is that those are companies money and not just his own money.. what matters now is that they all will be better benefiters on Bitcoin in the future.

Why does it matter if the about 130k of bitcoin that MSTR had bought are company assets rather than Saylor's?  We have gone over this quite a bit in this thread already, no?

Saylor has a pretty dominant role and control over MSTR, and that is how the company is designed (likely purposefully by him).  People have rights to design companies how they like, and surely there are ramifications regarding what he can do and what he cannot do because MSTR had become a public company and still is a public company.

And, since MSTR is a public company, we end up getting to see a lot of details that we might otherwise be able to see - which in some sense should be a positive to be able to learn from how largely open MSTR (and Saylor) have decided to be in regards to MSTR's bitcoin strategies - and surely Saylor has been going overboard with the extent of his public disclosures in regards to MSTR's BTC strategies, and he surely seems to be attempting to use that openness to his advantage - which seems to be beneficial to bitcoin too (to the extent that bitcoin gives any shits).


Here, analysts began to declare after the fact that it would be if Microstrategy invested not in bitcoin, but for example in Ethereum, and it turns out that the company, instead of losses, would now cost more by $1.6 billion, but here is one thing, the entire crypto market depends on bitcoin and here calculations for an alternative investment can be purely theoretical, in that case who then you should invest in bitcoin taking the place of Microstrategy.
https://decrypt.co/113531/there-is-no-second-best-microstrategy-would-1-6b-invested-ethereum
Nice try, but completely out of scope.
Micheal Saylor already made clear several times Microstrategy is not concerned by the market price, at least in the short period.
I have a suspect there would be even better performing shitcoins, even the US Dollar might be one of those, but this a pointless observation.
Hahahahaha  - maybe that diptwat Vitalik wrote the Article himself under a pseudonym..? since he and the other ethereum fantasylandia dweebs enjoy dealing with counter-factual realities - to wish their visions of reality into reality.
No no hahahahaha,  he wants the push and growing up of Ethereum but saying he wrote that not a good way to go about that

My head hurts just thinking (even in a superficial way) about that messy project, aka Ethereum..... You would be hard-pressed to get me to say anything nice about it, except maybe that it serves a kind of interesting experimental ground, and hopefully not too many innocent people get hurt in the process - even though we do know that brains are hurt because some people actually believe the various Rube Goldberg machine bullshit upon which Ethereum's seemingly house of cards is built and continues to attempt to perpetuate itself.
sr. member
Activity: 1736
Merit: 306
Here, analysts began to declare after the fact that it would be if Microstrategy invested not in bitcoin, but for example in Ethereum, and it turns out that the company, instead of losses, would now cost more by $1.6 billion, but here is one thing, the entire crypto market depends on bitcoin and here calculations for an alternative investment can be purely theoretical, in that case who then you should invest in bitcoin taking the place of Microstrategy.

https://decrypt.co/113531/there-is-no-second-best-microstrategy-would-1-6b-invested-ethereum

Nice try, but completely out of scope.
Micheal Saylor already made clear several times Microstrategy is not concerned by the market price, at least in the short period.
I have a suspect there would be even better performing shitcoins, even the US Dollar might be one of those, but this a pointless observation.

They would have held currently what they hold in Bitcoin double folds if they had bought Ethereum but they are strictly censorship base and nothing like bitcoin in terms of comparison. A big no again from him, i think if he can, he can sell his kidney just to purchase to those Bitcoin, his advice is to buy more bitcoin and more bitcoin. The only thing that scares me is that those are companies money and not just his own money.. what matters now is that they all will be better benefiters on Bitcoin in the future.

Here, analysts began to declare after the fact that it would be if Microstrategy invested not in bitcoin, but for example in Ethereum, and it turns out that the company, instead of losses, would now cost more by $1.6 billion, but here is one thing, the entire crypto market depends on bitcoin and here calculations for an alternative investment can be purely theoretical, in that case who then you should invest in bitcoin taking the place of Microstrategy.
https://decrypt.co/113531/there-is-no-second-best-microstrategy-would-1-6b-invested-ethereum
Nice try, but completely out of scope.
Micheal Saylor already made clear several times Microstrategy is not concerned by the market price, at least in the short period.
I have a suspect there would be even better performing shitcoins, even the US Dollar might be one of those, but this a pointless observation.

Hahahahaha  - maybe that diptwat Vitalik wrote the Article himself under a pseudonym..? since he and the other ethereum fantasylandia dweebs enjoy dealing with counter-factual realities - to wish their visions of reality into reality.

No no hahahahaha,  he wants the push and growing up of Ethereum but saying he wrote that not a good way to go about that
legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
Here, analysts began to declare after the fact that it would be if Microstrategy invested not in bitcoin, but for example in Ethereum, and it turns out that the company, instead of losses, would now cost more by $1.6 billion, but here is one thing, the entire crypto market depends on bitcoin and here calculations for an alternative investment can be purely theoretical, in that case who then you should invest in bitcoin taking the place of Microstrategy.
https://decrypt.co/113531/there-is-no-second-best-microstrategy-would-1-6b-invested-ethereum
Nice try, but completely out of scope.
Micheal Saylor already made clear several times Microstrategy is not concerned by the market price, at least in the short period.
I have a suspect there would be even better performing shitcoins, even the US Dollar might be one of those, but this a pointless observation.

Hahahahaha  - maybe that diptwat Vitalik wrote the Article himself under a pseudonym..? since he and the other ethereum fantasylandia dweebs enjoy dealing with counter-factual realities - to wish their visions of reality into reality.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Here, analysts began to declare after the fact that it would be if Microstrategy invested not in bitcoin, but for example in Ethereum, and it turns out that the company, instead of losses, would now cost more by $1.6 billion, but here is one thing, the entire crypto market depends on bitcoin and here calculations for an alternative investment can be purely theoretical, in that case who then you should invest in bitcoin taking the place of Microstrategy.

https://decrypt.co/113531/there-is-no-second-best-microstrategy-would-1-6b-invested-ethereum

Nice try, but completely out of scope.
Micheal Saylor already made clear several times Microstrategy is not concerned by the market price, at least in the short period.
I have a suspect there would be even better performing shitcoins, even the US Dollar might be one of those, but this a pointless observation.
legendary
Activity: 2618
Merit: 1504
Here, analysts began to declare after the fact that it would be if Microstrategy invested not in bitcoin, but for example in Ethereum, and it turns out that the company, instead of losses, would now cost more by $1.6 billion, but here is one thing, the entire crypto market depends on bitcoin and here calculations for an alternative investment can be purely theoretical, in that case who then you should invest in bitcoin taking the place of Microstrategy.

https://decrypt.co/113531/there-is-no-second-best-microstrategy-would-1-6b-invested-ethereum
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Microstrategy released some information on their financial statements.

On this news on Business Wire we had a full disclosure of their accounting:

MicroStrategy Announces Third Quarter 2022 Financial Results


Quote
Digital Assets: As of September 30, 2022, the carrying value of MicroStrategy’s digital assets (comprised of approximately 130,000 bitcoins) was $1.993 billion, which reflects cumulative impairment losses of $1.990 billion since acquisition and an average carrying amount per bitcoin of approximately $15,331. As of September 30, 2022, the original cost basis and market value of MicroStrategy’s bitcoin were $3.983 billion and $2.532 billion, respectively, which reflects an average cost per bitcoin of approximately $30,639 and a market price per bitcoin of $19,480.51, respectively. Additional information on MicroStrategy’s digital asset holdings is included in the “Digital Assets – Additional Information” tables at the end of this press release.

They shared a few detailed informations via a couple of tables: I was able to mostly reproduce these computations, on my Google sheet, but I think I have missed something as I have a different valuation on the purchase on the Q122 (I previously wrongly attributed to Q2).

Official Microstrategy Table
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Microstratefgy Releases their financial statement


MicroStrategy Announces Third Quarter 2022 Financial Results


Highlight on the Bitcoin Strategy:

Quote
Digital Assets: As of September 30, 2022, the carrying value of MicroStrategy’s digital assets (comprised of approximately 130,000 bitcoins) was $1.993 billion, which reflects cumulative impairment losses of $1.990 billion since acquisition and an average carrying amount per bitcoin of approximately $15,331. As of September 30, 2022, the original cost basis and market value of MicroStrategy’s bitcoin were $3.983 billion and $2.532 billion, respectively, which reflects an average cost per bitcoin of approximately $30,639 and a market price per bitcoin of $19,480.51, respectively. Additional information on MicroStrategy’s digital asset holdings is included in the “Digital Assets – Additional Information” tables at the end of this press release.

Full Presentation:



I am trying to figure out how to recompute the numbers. I will publish as soon I have sorted out something.

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Microstrategy buy mobile apps The Bitcoin market has now created a network that has changed the entire world.
<…>

I didn’t understand what kind of news are you referring to.
Which company should Microstrategy have bought? I can’t see anything in the linked source.
Saylor is only referencing to the improved UX Bitcoin has using Cash App as an interface.
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 135
Microstrategy buy mobile apps The Bitcoin market has now created a network that has changed the entire world. Now this news has been widely circulated which will be of great benefit to everyone as micro-engineering is widely facilitated

Sourced: https://twitter.com/saylor/status/1584973583477972992?t=qj1c9bT9rTbw1UWCsNt1fg&s=19


legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Microstrategy is going to release their Earning Estimates on the next Thursday night, after the bell.
I updated my computations on digital impairment, and this quarter very little is expected:



The price has risen, so there should be little room for impairment from very recent buys.

I have to doublecheck those computations, but everything seems right.


legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
I guess, young investors will surely learn from Michael saylor investment in the future,

Not so sure about what you stated.
For sure the one thing the investors, be them young or not, can learn from Micheal Saylor is actually the term investors refers to a medium/long time horizon, with little to no interest to price level.Let's say 4 years or more.
Other legitimate time horizon imply different attention to price and different terms: trader, speculators, punters. Not investors.

full member
Activity: 1358
Merit: 207
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Micheal Saylor is back in the game!



This is to answer to all those tonight that stupid lawsuit was found to interfere with his Bitcoin Strategy.
I guess, young investors will surely learn from Michael saylor investment in the future, because for someone to purchased 301 bitcoins in the month of September at the average price of $19,851 per Bitcoin, showed that there are many evidence he can use to prove to people that he has the capacity to invest such amount of money on Bitcoin, and what he will get in return when the price of Bitcoin hit higher in the future will be great. I see massive victory ahead of Michael saylor because all the requirements that will make the lawsuit successful in the future are with him.
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