Monero Economy Workgroup - The MEW Thread - page 3.

wpalczynski

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Quote from: rpietila on January 06, 2016, 05:54:26 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

This does seem unfair to the people who invested time and money in CK.

CK valuation of 1,000,000 XMR++ is obviously not hanging on a 4,000 XMR. If needed I can promise to purchase assets from David (HG The Prince-Bishop) up to 4,000 XMR value at 5% less than the bid, so the maximum loss to CK players, even temporarily, is 5% on the market value.

Further, I don't want that David is bashed. If he makes good of all the funds with his assets, he fulfils the most that he is liable for.

What does this even mean? And how is what YOU want even relevant? This is not the ledger game now risto.

He either spent the funds in which case as far as I am concerned he is a thief or he did not and everything is cool.

This is the determination that we have to make as soon as possible, hand waving about taking funds from CK will not cut it.

rpietila

donator

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1036

Quote from: ?? on ??

This does seem unfair to the people who invested time and money in CK.

CK valuation of 1,000,000 XMR++ is obviously not hanging on a 4,000 XMR. If needed I can promise to purchase assets from David (HG The Prince-Bishop) up to 4,000 XMR value at 5% less than the bid, so the maximum loss to CK players, even temporarily, is 5% on the market value.

Further, I don't want that David is bashed. If he makes good of all the funds with his assets, he fulfils the most that he is liable for.

binaryFate

legendary

Activity: 1512

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Still wild and free

Quote from: rpietila on January 06, 2016, 03:29:33 PM

If he wants to claim that the funds were allocated and were stolen from his hand without negligence from his part, so be it.

The bolded parts seem very much antagonist to me. (unless physical violence is involved somehow and this is surely not the case).
Also I do not think it's on you (nor on anyone) to declare that "so be it". (I am not in MEW, but since David is a core team member this is a legitimate concern beyond MEW).

In general, I consider that it would be a breach of trust in such a situation if the funds are not there anymore and the escrow/treasurer would not even have informed anyone, let alone the fact that they would disappear in the first place.
So I am as well of the opinion that knowing if the funds are there is more important than recovering those funds (to holders).

Now personally I have respect and trust in David, despite the current doubts floating around. I really hope he can clarify positively the situation asap and ease the unease.

wpalczynski

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1000

Quote from: rpietila on January 04, 2016, 01:35:26 PM

To this end, I and David had the infamous Wine, Cognac, Foie Gras and Caviar workshop in Malla in late 2014, which spawned Crypto Kingdom. The game still commemorates these most precious consumables with 1 liter of fine cognac costing 3 XMR and 1 kilo of caviar costing 3 XMR.

Maybe David developed too much of a taste for the above bolded delicacies during the infamous spawning of CK with you in Malla and dipped into the MEW treasury to indulge.

I think the prudent course of action would be to conduct an audit as smooth mentioned.

binaryFate

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Still wild and free

Quote from: rpietila on January 06, 2016, 03:03:01 PM

However I have good news for everybody concerned: If David does not promptly return the correspondence, his CK character worth ~15,000 XMR will be frozen and necessary funds liquidated from that one to fulfill the MEW resolution that seems to pass.

That would be unfair to CK as a whole (and its players) as I mentioned. It would plummet the price of whatever asset David holds in large quantity and would impact CK economy and its free market even though current events have nothing to do with it.

rpietila

donator

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1036

Quote from: wpalczynski on January 06, 2016, 03:06:13 PM

Quote from: rpietila on January 06, 2016, 03:03:01 PM

Quote from: wpalczynski on January 06, 2016, 02:23:11 PM

Quote from: binaryFate on January 06, 2016, 02:18:03 PM

Quote from: rpietila on January 06, 2016, 07:02:38 AM

[...] allows the distribution of funds even in the event that David continues to be busy, in which case his CK assets are just administratively swapped to MEW and he can keep the equivalent amount in the MEW treasury account (in XMR blockchain).

I'm not in MEW but I'm playing CK, pardon me if I'm not supposed to intervene here but I'd like to make some remarks.

David assets in CK are mostly not in Moneretos (matched by real XMR) right? I see two mechanisms to transfer value to MEW holders within CK from David CK assets:
- Assets are sold, moneretos backed by real XMR are transfered to MEW players.
I find it unfair to CK economy as a whole, this will trigger largish sells and influence the economy even though those events taking place have nothing to do with CK economy.

- Assets (various game items) are transfered directly to MEW players
Not really my business, but I find it unfair to them as they get a refund in a very different form as the initial payment, which admittedly involves a greater risk and volatility (that of XMR plus that of CK items backed by internal free-market only, not by real XMR).

In general I must say I find it really ridiculous that after more than a year of funds not moving, the escrow isn't available to do it in a timely manner and you MEW members are therefore rushing with a weird work-around solution... Ok, that's none of my business anyway.

I am really curious if the treasurer is still in possession of the funds.

I do not know if he has kept those funds as "allocated" or not. Regardless of this, it is still possible that they have been stolen.

However I have good news for everybody concerned: If David does not promptly return the correspondence, his CK character worth ~15,000 XMR will be frozen and necessary funds liquidated from that one to fulfill the MEW resolution that seems to pass.

Its great that you are willing to exercise that option Risto but I must state that if he did abscond with those funds we have much bigger problems than just the value of the missing funds.

Since the funds were only implicitly demanded to be allocated, I would not attach unnecessary gravity to the situation. The worst possible case for David is that he is demanded the funds. If he wants to claim that the funds were allocated and were stolen from his hand without negligence from his part, so be it. Without such a claim the actionable story is that he possesses the funds, is busy, and we will administratively swap the funds and notify him post-facto.

wpalczynski

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1000

Quote from: rpietila on January 06, 2016, 03:03:01 PM

Quote from: wpalczynski on January 06, 2016, 02:23:11 PM

Quote from: binaryFate on January 06, 2016, 02:18:03 PM

Quote from: rpietila on January 06, 2016, 07:02:38 AM

[...] allows the distribution of funds even in the event that David continues to be busy, in which case his CK assets are just administratively swapped to MEW and he can keep the equivalent amount in the MEW treasury account (in XMR blockchain).

I'm not in MEW but I'm playing CK, pardon me if I'm not supposed to intervene here but I'd like to make some remarks.

David assets in CK are mostly not in Moneretos (matched by real XMR) right? I see two mechanisms to transfer value to MEW holders within CK from David CK assets:
- Assets are sold, moneretos backed by real XMR are transfered to MEW players.
I find it unfair to CK economy as a whole, this will trigger largish sells and influence the economy even though those events taking place have nothing to do with CK economy.

- Assets (various game items) are transfered directly to MEW players
Not really my business, but I find it unfair to them as they get a refund in a very different form as the initial payment, which admittedly involves a greater risk and volatility (that of XMR plus that of CK items backed by internal free-market only, not by real XMR).

In general I must say I find it really ridiculous that after more than a year of funds not moving, the escrow isn't available to do it in a timely manner and you MEW members are therefore rushing with a weird work-around solution... Ok, that's none of my business anyway.

I am really curious if the treasurer is still in possession of the funds.

I do not know if he has kept those funds as "allocated" or not. Regardless of this, it is still possible that they have been stolen.

However I have good news for everybody concerned: If David does not promptly return the correspondence, his CK character worth ~15,000 XMR will be frozen and necessary funds liquidated from that one to fulfill the MEW resolution that seems to pass.

Its great that you are willing to exercise that option Risto but I must state that if he did abscond with those funds we have much bigger problems than just the value of the missing funds.

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: wpalczynski on January 06, 2016, 02:23:11 PM

I am really curious if the treasurer is still in possession of the funds.

The appropriate action in that case would be to call for an audit. Presumably, since there is no special provision for such an audit in the articles, such a call would then be subject to discussion and vote. However, I am not an expert on the organizing documents, so I may have missed something.

rpietila

donator

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1036

Quote from: wpalczynski on January 06, 2016, 02:23:11 PM

Quote from: binaryFate on January 06, 2016, 02:18:03 PM

Quote from: rpietila on January 06, 2016, 07:02:38 AM

[...] allows the distribution of funds even in the event that David continues to be busy, in which case his CK assets are just administratively swapped to MEW and he can keep the equivalent amount in the MEW treasury account (in XMR blockchain).

I'm not in MEW but I'm playing CK, pardon me if I'm not supposed to intervene here but I'd like to make some remarks.

David assets in CK are mostly not in Moneretos (matched by real XMR) right? I see two mechanisms to transfer value to MEW holders within CK from David CK assets:
- Assets are sold, moneretos backed by real XMR are transfered to MEW players.
I find it unfair to CK economy as a whole, this will trigger largish sells and influence the economy even though those events taking place have nothing to do with CK economy.

- Assets (various game items) are transfered directly to MEW players
Not really my business, but I find it unfair to them as they get a refund in a very different form as the initial payment, which admittedly involves a greater risk and volatility (that of XMR plus that of CK items backed by internal free-market only, not by real XMR).

In general I must say I find it really ridiculous that after more than a year of funds not moving, the escrow isn't available to do it in a timely manner and you MEW members are therefore rushing with a weird work-around solution... Ok, that's none of my business anyway.

I am really curious if the treasurer is still in possession of the funds.

I do not know if he has kept those funds as "allocated" or not. Regardless of this, it is still possible that they have been stolen.

However I have good news for everybody concerned: If David does not promptly return the correspondence, his CK character worth ~15,000 XMR will be frozen and necessary funds liquidated from that one to fulfill the MEW resolution that seems to pass.

wpalczynski

legendary

Activity: 1456

Merit: 1000

Quote from: binaryFate on January 06, 2016, 02:18:03 PM

Quote from: rpietila on January 06, 2016, 07:02:38 AM

[...] allows the distribution of funds even in the event that David continues to be busy, in which case his CK assets are just administratively swapped to MEW and he can keep the equivalent amount in the MEW treasury account (in XMR blockchain).

I'm not in MEW but I'm playing CK, pardon me if I'm not supposed to intervene here but I'd like to make some remarks.

David assets in CK are mostly not in Moneretos (matched by real XMR) right? I see two mechanisms to transfer value to MEW holders within CK from David CK assets:
- Assets are sold, moneretos backed by real XMR are transfered to MEW players.
I find it unfair to CK economy as a whole, this will trigger largish sells and influence the economy even though those events taking place have nothing to do with CK economy.

- Assets (various game items) are transfered directly to MEW players
Not really my business, but I find it unfair to them as they get a refund in a very different form as the initial payment, which admittedly involves a greater risk and volatility (that of XMR plus that of CK items backed by internal free-market only, not by real XMR).

In general I must say I find it really ridiculous that after more than a year of funds not moving, the escrow isn't available to do it in a timely manner and you MEW members are therefore rushing with a weird work-around solution... Ok, that's none of my business anyway.

I am really curious if the treasurer is still in possession of the funds.

binaryFate

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1012

Still wild and free

Quote from: rpietila on January 06, 2016, 07:02:38 AM

[...] allows the distribution of funds even in the event that David continues to be busy, in which case his CK assets are just administratively swapped to MEW and he can keep the equivalent amount in the MEW treasury account (in XMR blockchain).

I'm not in MEW but I'm playing CK, pardon me if I'm not supposed to intervene here but I'd like to make some remarks.

David assets in CK are mostly not in Moneretos (matched by real XMR) right? I see two mechanisms to transfer value to MEW holders within CK from David CK assets:
- Assets are sold, moneretos backed by real XMR are transfered to MEW players.
I find it unfair to CK economy as a whole, this will trigger largish sells and influence the economy even though those events taking place have nothing to do with CK economy.

- Assets (various game items) are transfered directly to MEW players
Not really my business, but I find it unfair to them as they get a refund in a very different form as the initial payment, which admittedly involves a greater risk and volatility (that of XMR plus that of CK items backed by internal free-market only, not by real XMR).

In general I must say I find it really ridiculous that after more than a year of funds not moving, the escrow isn't available to do it in a timely manner and you MEW members are therefore rushing with a weird work-around solution... Ok, that's none of my business anyway.

saddambitcoin

legendary

Activity: 1610

Merit: 1004

100 votes.

I support ArticMine's proposal as well.

dEBRUYNE

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 1141

100 votes, supporting ArticMine's proposal

Also personally in favor of this one:

Quote

Any remaining unclaimed funds after the 15 day period has elapsed shall be credited as follows:
Crypto Kingdom account MoneroHouse 50%
Crypto Kingdom account Town 50%

Therefore, I shall not provide a withdrawal address nor a CK character.

rpietila

donator

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1036

Quote from: smooth on January 06, 2016, 05:28:28 AM

Quote from: ArticMine on January 06, 2016, 01:45:20 AM

ArticMine 1000 votes.

Proposal for the orderly dissolution of the MEW.

That the MEW be dissolved and the corresponding funds be refunded to each member as follows: Members shall have 15 days from the date of the end of voting to provide:
1) An XMR address and transaction ID for refund.
or
2) The name of a Crypto Kingdom character account to be credited with the funds.

Any remaining unclaimed funds after the 15 day period has elapsed shall be credited as follows:
Crypto Kingdom account MoneroHouse 50%
Crypto Kingdom account Town 50%

This proposal allows each member to identify how their portion of the funds will be allocated and provides a balanced approach for disposition of the unclaimed funds. For those unfamiliar with Crypto Kingdom, the MoneroHouse account is used to support Monero development.

Edit: Those wishing that their portion of the funds go to Monero development could choose 1 and provide the Monero donation address.

Code:

46BeWrHpwXmHDpDEUmZBWZfoQpdc6HaERCNmx1pEYL2rAcuwufPN9rXHHtyUA4QVy66qeFQkn6sfK8aHYjA3jk3o1Bv16em

https://getmonero.org/getting-started/donate/. Those wishing to donate to Crypto Kingdom can choose 2 and specify "Town" as the Crypto Kingdom character account. This will minimize administration time and transaction fees

500 (+ 20?) votes

Very well thought out proposal. I withdraw my earlier proposal and would support this one.

1000 votes in favor of this one, since it seems to take everything into account, and also allows the distribution of funds even in the event that David continues to be busy, in which case his CK assets are just administratively swapped to MEW and he can keep the equivalent amount in the MEW treasury account (in XMR blockchain).

equipoise

hero member

Activity: 794

Merit: 1000

Monero (XMR) - secure, private, untraceable

Quote from: smooth on January 06, 2016, 05:28:28 AM

500 (+ 20?) votes

Very well thought out proposal. I withdraw my earlier proposal and would support this one.

Yes, I delegated 20 votes to you and this is still in effect.

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: ArticMine on January 06, 2016, 01:45:20 AM

ArticMine 1000 votes.

Proposal for the orderly dissolution of the MEW.

That the MEW be dissolved and the corresponding funds be refunded to each member as follows: Members shall have 15 days from the date of the end of voting to provide:
1) An XMR address and transaction ID for refund.
or
2) The name of a Crypto Kingdom character account to be credited with the funds.

Any remaining unclaimed funds after the 15 day period has elapsed shall be credited as follows:
Crypto Kingdom account MoneroHouse 50%
Crypto Kingdom account Town 50%

This proposal allows each member to identify how their portion of the funds will be allocated and provides a balanced approach for disposition of the unclaimed funds. For those unfamiliar with Crypto Kingdom, the MoneroHouse account is used to support Monero development.

Edit: Those wishing that their portion of the funds go to Monero development could choose 1 and provide the Monero donation address.

Code:

46BeWrHpwXmHDpDEUmZBWZfoQpdc6HaERCNmx1pEYL2rAcuwufPN9rXHHtyUA4QVy66qeFQkn6sfK8aHYjA3jk3o1Bv16em

https://getmonero.org/getting-started/donate/. Those wishing to donate to Crypto Kingdom can choose 2 and specify "Town" as the Crypto Kingdom character account. This will minimize administration time and transaction fees

500 (+ 20?) votes

Very well thought out proposal. I withdraw my earlier proposal and would support this one.

nioc

legendary

Activity: 1624

Merit: 1008

Thank you ArticMine

ArticMine

legendary

Activity: 2282

Merit: 1050

Monero Core Team

ArticMine 1000 votes.

Proposal for the orderly dissolution of the MEW.

That the MEW be dissolved and the corresponding funds be refunded to each member as follows: Members shall have 15 days from the date of the end of voting to provide:
1) An XMR address and transaction ID for refund.
or
2) The name of a Crypto Kingdom character account to be credited with the funds.

Any remaining unclaimed funds after the 15 day period has elapsed shall be credited as follows:
Crypto Kingdom account MoneroHouse 50%
Crypto Kingdom account Town 50%

This proposal allows each member to identify how their portion of the funds will be allocated and provides a balanced approach for disposition of the unclaimed funds. For those unfamiliar with Crypto Kingdom, the MoneroHouse account is used to support Monero development.

Edit: Those wishing that their portion of the funds go to Monero development could choose 1 and provide the Monero donation address.

Code:

46BeWrHpwXmHDpDEUmZBWZfoQpdc6HaERCNmx1pEYL2rAcuwufPN9rXHHtyUA4QVy66qeFQkn6sfK8aHYjA3jk3o1Bv16em

https://getmonero.org/getting-started/donate/. Those wishing to donate to Crypto Kingdom can choose 2 and specify "Town" as the Crypto Kingdom character account. This will minimize administration time and transaction fees

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: bobabouey2 on January 05, 2016, 07:20:15 PM

Quote from: dnaleor on January 05, 2016, 06:49:51 PM

Proposal:

Contact every MEW member and ask them if they want to get their remaining share of funds back.
If they provide a deposit address within 7 days, funds are returned.
Unclaimed funds are donated to core dev team.
Dissolve MEW

100 votes inclined in this direction.

Personally, I would not request funds back and would let it go to core dev team, but I think people should have the option of a return since MEW went dormant for so long.

That approach also seems consistent with the articles of incorporation, which provide for a refund of votes if annual fees are not paid. So basically, if MEW was not dissolved, anyone who did not renew would be entitled to a refund anyway:

Quote

Yearly membership dues, to be paid by the end of January, are kept in a separate fund until January has ended. At that point all members that have not paid their due are dismissed and refunded of their votes. Only after this, will the yearly dues be merged with the GF.

500 (+ 20?) votes

I could support this. It also seems this requires no membership action at this time, given that the January 30 renewal date is near in any case. People who want to renew can do so, and it will be up to those people to continue to group. The rest will be refunded.

However, donating funds to the core dev team (or anywhere else) would require membership action prior to non-renewal. In the absence of that, there will need to be some reasonable provision for refunds to people who can't be reached immediately.

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: nioc on January 05, 2016, 06:56:47 PM

Quote from: smooth on January 05, 2016, 05:47:16 PM

Proposal: MEW disbanded and the funds refunded to member's accounts in CK (new accounts created if necessary). Members may then decide whether to use those funds within the CK economy (which could include donating to MoneroHouse or any other purpose) or withdraw them.

I don't have a CK account and I have absolutely no interest in one.

500 votes (plus some small added votes that were delegated to me -- 20?)

My proposal allows you to immediately withdraw the funds from CK.

Topic: Monero Economy Workgroup - The MEW Thread - page 3. (Read 37978 times)