MoneyPot.com :: The bitcoin gambling wallet - page 29.

JackpotRacer

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Activity: 1904

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All Games incl Racer and Lottery game are Closed

Quote from: RHavar on September 14, 2015, 12:10:28 PM

Quote from: NLNico on September 14, 2015, 11:32:40 AM

What is "zero risk" anyway? Investors always have risk, with every bet. Just the fact that we trust MP with our bitcoins is a huge risk.

While investors always have the risk of trust me with their money, it's indeed possible to place a bet that poses no-risk to investors. For instance if you play that roulette game, and put a 1 bet on every number (including 0) its impossible for the investor to lose (or the player to win). Not really a common case for single-player games, but it's easy to imagine in a multiplayer bet (Bob wins 1.99x if it's heads, Matt wins 1.99x if it's tails) where they both bet the same amount.

Currently investors will make 50% of the house edge for that bet (even though they shouldered no risk, so it's effectively free money) but it's really such an edge case at the moment

thank you very much for explaining what a zero risk bet is. and yes I am really surprised that Nico and ndnhc didn't know this.

and regarding but it's really such an edge case at the moment our app had this zero risk bet a lot of times (bets on all 6 racers same time/bet) and even ndnhc (not the only one because it was smart to do this bet during this contest in the right moment) was doing this zero risk bets during a most wagered contest. and I promise you that in case of another most wagered contest there will be again many zero risk bets.

and if you look at the "before" graph that dooglus posted it was exactly like you also posted it
in case of a zero risk bet
MP should get 50%
and app owner get 50%

and this was fair enough because the Investor had no risk

ndnh

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New Decentralized Nuclear Hobbit

Quote from: JackpotRacer on September 14, 2015, 12:17:27 PM

it looks like that you and ndnhc don't understand what a zero bet is but complaining that JP guy is complaining.............

Even if I don't understand, it makes absolutely no sense for you to complain.

While you might consider me an idiot (read math genius), I am not. Tongue

(though I admit both NLNico and Ryan knows these things better than me.)

Quote

I don't want to interfere with your current discussion since it is so much confidential.

lol, confidential means secret. Grin

agustina2

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I don't want to interfere with your current discussion since it is so much confidential. I just want someone who can enlightened me about investing in moneypot's bankroll. I want to give it a try.

JackpotRacer

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Activity: 1904

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All Games incl Racer and Lottery game are Closed

Quote from: NLNico on September 14, 2015, 11:32:40 AM

I wasn't really serious, although there would be one app that I would currently exclude.

What is "zero risk" anyway? Investors always have risk, with every bet. Just the fact that we trust MP with our bitcoins is a huge risk.

Then Ryan decides to give his share to the app and mostly investors and this JP guy is still complaining? Really? Even now the commission is 2 till 6 times higher than other dice invest sites. But that's okay, I understand apps need a decent share too.

I would just expect a little bit more appreciation from app owners towards the people that bankroll their website.

I personally think the new scheme is fair for all.

.........and this JP guy is still complaining?
to be frank this does'nt sound nice and I don't remember that I attacked you in any posting I did.
yes please tell me what is a zero bet? it looks like that you and ndnhc don't understand what a zero bet is but complaining that JP guy is complaining.............

each one should be allowed to have his opinion and to share and discuss it. yes Ryan is the boss of MP
and can do what he likes. fine with me as I appreciate all his work but does it mean that he is always right? no and that is same with me you and many others.

btw BTC IMO is represents real democracy

and yes I am still complaining that it is unfair to give Investors 50% of a zero risk bet. but I invite all app owners to let us now their opinion regarding the zero risk bet even if they think otherwise

right now I am the only one here who is giving his opinion.

RHavar

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Activity: 2557

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Quote from: NLNico on September 14, 2015, 11:32:40 AM

What is "zero risk" anyway? Investors always have risk, with every bet. Just the fact that we trust MP with our bitcoins is a huge risk.

While investors always have the risk of trust me with their money, it's indeed possible to place a bet that poses no-risk to investors. For instance if you play that roulette game, and put a 1 bet on every number (including 0) its impossible for the investor to lose (or the player to win). Not really a common case for single-player games, but it's easy to imagine in a multiplayer bet (Bob wins 1.99x if it's heads, Matt wins 1.99x if it's tails) where they both bet the same amount.

Currently investors will make 50% of the house edge for that bet (even though they shouldered no risk, so it's effectively free money) but it's really such an edge case at the moment

ndnh

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Activity: 1302

Merit: 1005

New Decentralized Nuclear Hobbit

Quote from: NLNico on September 14, 2015, 11:32:40 AM

I wasn't really serious, although there would be one app that I would currently exclude.

What is "zero risk" anyway? Investors always have risk, with every bet. Just the fact that we trust MP with our bitcoins is a huge risk.

Then Ryan decides to give his share to the app and mostly investors and this JP guy is still complaining? Really? Even now the commission is 2 till 6 times higher than other dice invest sites. But that's okay, I understand apps need a decent share too.

I would just expect a little bit more appreciation from app owners towards the people that bankroll their website.

I personally think the new scheme is fair for all.

Zero risk to the investor means a player betting 1 satoshi for which the risk tends towards 0. At least that is what I thought. Wink

Yeah, I would expect devs to be very appreciative of this set up. (apps who limit the max bet below 0.5% of BR still gets very good advantage) Especially since Moneypot themselves reduced their share to make it a very fair deal for everyone.

Overall, the distribution is very fair imo. Cheesy

RHavar

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Quote from: NLNico on September 14, 2015, 11:05:36 AM

Is it possible to exclude apps as an investor?

This is not possible, and not something I've currently planned (or understand the usecase)

Under what circumstances would you want this feature? The only one that comes to mind right now is a punitive one?

NLNico

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Activity: 1876

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DiceSites.com owner

I wasn't really serious, although there would be one app that I would currently exclude.

What is "zero risk" anyway? Investors always have risk, with every bet. Just the fact that we trust MP with our bitcoins is a huge risk.

Then Ryan decides to give his share to the app and mostly investors and this JP guy is still complaining? Really? Even now the commission is 2 till 6 times higher than other dice invest sites. But that's okay, I understand apps need a decent share too.

I would just expect a little bit more appreciation from app owners towards the people that bankroll their website.

I personally think the new scheme is fair for all.

RHavar

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Activity: 2557

Merit: 1886

I love hearing proposals, but as profit-share is inherently a zero-sum game it's pretty draining to hear: "On X site investors get Y, we should get it too!" and "If i privately bankrolled i'd make twice as much!". Both statements are true, but it doesn't really help me strike a balance between apps, investors and myself.

Quote from: JackpotRacer on September 14, 2015, 10:39:42 AM

I understand that you are not an app owner and IMO the new set up is better for the Investors

and as you are the maths genius here please explain us why the Investors should get 50% with a zero risk bet

thank you for the input

I'm not sure if you're being obtuse on purpose, but as it's been repeated over and over in most cases the new scheme is better for investors, and in all cases the new scheme is better for you. In the case of a 0% risk bet, it went from:

JackpotRacer: 50%
MoneyPot: 50%
Investors: 50%

to:

JackpotRacer: 50%
MoneyPot: 5%
Investors: 45%

In fact, it should be a real positive for you as it'll encourage more investments which will allow you to place bigger bets.

ndnh

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Activity: 1302

Merit: 1005

New Decentralized Nuclear Hobbit

Quote from: NLNico on September 14, 2015, 11:05:36 AM

Is it possible to exclude apps as an investor?

Nope. (It is only possible to fund moneypot as a whole at the moment, and at least in the near future AFAIK. as you might already know.)

IMO, the issue is it would place some apps at a disadvantage, esp. emerging ones with lower house edge.

Honestly, I would like a feature like that too, if I am investing. Grin

NLNico

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Activity: 1876

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DiceSites.com owner

Is it possible to exclude apps as an investor?

BlackPanda

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Quote from: JackpotRacer on September 14, 2015, 10:54:58 AM

Quote from: ndnh on September 14, 2015, 10:44:15 AM

Quote from: JackpotRacer on September 14, 2015, 10:39:42 AM

I understand that you are not an app owner and IMO the new set up is better for the Investors

In your opinion, you prefer the previous one? Roll Eyes

Okay. I give up.

hmmm so let me ask you

the new set up is better or worse for the Investors?

better than the first as a "performance"

JackpotRacer

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Activity: 1904

Merit: 1011

All Games incl Racer and Lottery game are Closed

Quote from: ndnh on September 14, 2015, 10:44:15 AM

Quote from: JackpotRacer on September 14, 2015, 10:39:42 AM

I understand that you are not an app owner and IMO the new set up is better for the Investors

In your opinion, you prefer the previous one? Roll Eyes

Okay. I give up.

hmmm so let me ask you

the new set up is better or worse for the Investors?

ndnh

legendary

Activity: 1302

Merit: 1005

New Decentralized Nuclear Hobbit

Quote from: JackpotRacer on September 14, 2015, 10:39:42 AM

I understand that you are not an app owner and IMO the new set up is better for the Investors

In your opinion, you prefer the previous one? Roll Eyes

Okay. I give up.

JackpotRacer

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1011

All Games incl Racer and Lottery game are Closed

Quote from: ndnh on September 14, 2015, 10:32:52 AM

@JackpotRacer You understand that the new set up is actually more profitable to you and other devs, than the previous one?

The following won't be applicable once you make the max bet equal or below the 50% of HE (check the dooglus' chart)

Quote

sorry but why should get the Investor for a zero risk bet 50% of HE? that is very unfair IMO because he gets 100% for a full risk bet and the app owner gets nothing

the app owner is doing all he can (including costly promos) to bring players to the table and a whale comes and wants to bet maximum and app owner gets nothing for the max bet because the risk is with the investor = ok accepted

So as long as max bet is below 0.5% of the bankroll:
1. You get a flat 50% off HE. More earnings than previous guaranteed.
2. Predictable profit (constant profit to wager ration - better decisions)

(check the chart. The first chart starts from 50% and goes down. The second one (current) goes straight at 50)

I understand that you are not an app owner and IMO the new set up is better for the Investors

and as you are the maths genius here please explain us why the Investors should get 50% with a zero risk bet

thank you for the input

ndnh

legendary

Activity: 1302

Merit: 1005

New Decentralized Nuclear Hobbit

@JackpotRacer You understand that the new set up is actually more profitable to you and other devs, than the previous one?

The following won't be applicable once you make the max bet equal or below the 50% of HE (check the dooglus' chart)

Quote

sorry but why should get the Investor for a zero risk bet 50% of HE? that is very unfair IMO because he gets 100% for a full risk bet and the app owner gets nothing

the app owner is doing all he can (including costly promos) to bring players to the table and a whale comes and wants to bet maximum and app owner gets nothing for the max bet because the risk is with the investor = ok accepted

So as long as max bet is below 0.5% of the bankroll:
1. You get a flat 50% off HE. More earnings than previous guaranteed.
2. Predictable profit (constant profit to wager ration - better decisions)

(check the chart. The first chart starts from 50% and goes down. The second one (current) goes straight at 50)

(Green)

JackpotRacer

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Activity: 1904

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All Games incl Racer and Lottery game are Closed

Quote from: RHavar on September 14, 2015, 08:57:48 AM

Thanks for the chart Dooglus, once again another fantastic explanation of things =)

Quote from: JackpotRacer on September 14, 2015, 08:48:10 AM

@Ryan

is the new announcement = payout formula already implemented?

Yeah, it's already live

Quote from: JackpotRacer on September 14, 2015, 08:39:11 AM

now my question is how much will the app owner get if there is a zero risk bet and the Investor has actually zero risk?

A zero risk bet would constitute 0 on the x-axis of Dooglus' graph. So both apps and investors will get exactly half the house edge

sorry but why should get the Investor for a zero risk bet 50% of HE? that is very unfair IMO because he gets 100% for a full risk bet and the app owner gets nothing

the app owner is doing all he can (including costly promos) to bring players to the table and a whale comes and wants to bet maximum and app owner gets nothing for the max bet because the risk is with the investor = ok accepted

but now the app has a bet from the whale that will be zero risk for the Investor and the app owner will need to split the HE with the Investor? that is more than unfair IMO

edit
and the graph before shows that the investor would have got nothing in case of a zero risk bet for investor. so it was handled before like I said. why the change now?

RHavar

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Activity: 2557

Merit: 1886

Thanks for the chart Dooglus, once again another fantastic explanation of things =)

Quote from: JackpotRacer on September 14, 2015, 08:48:10 AM

@Ryan

is the new announcement = payout formula already implemented?

Yeah, it's already live

Quote from: JackpotRacer on September 14, 2015, 08:39:11 AM

now my question is how much will the app owner get if there is a zero risk bet and the Investor has actually zero risk?

A zero risk bet would constitute 0 on the x-axis of Dooglus' graph. So both apps and investors will get exactly half the house edge

JackpotRacer

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1011

All Games incl Racer and Lottery game are Closed

@Ryan

is the new announcement = payout formula already implemented?

JackpotRacer

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1011

All Games incl Racer and Lottery game are Closed

@dooglus

thank you very much for the effort to shed some light on the problem I had with this sentence
Apps will now get a constant 50% of the house edge maybe also because english is not my native language

very much appreciated because I am for a long time a fan of yours and again I have to say Chapeau! (hint) Wink

Quote from: dooglus on September 14, 2015, 06:48:41 AM

I think you misunderstood. You want 47% of the house edge (ie. almost half of it) not 0.47% (ie. about 1/200th of it), and to get that you need to limit bets at 6% of 1% of the bank, ie. 0.27

yes it looks like the formula I received the formula was 0.06% of the bank roll was confusing
but I understood it as 47%-50% of the 1% HE and I am sure the one who gave me the formula meant the same.

Quote from: dooglus on September 14, 2015, 06:48:41 AM

Now you get 50% of the house edge up to 50% of 1% of the bank, ie. 2.25

To get 47%, you can take a bet up to 53% of 1% of the bank, ie. 2.385

So you can increase your limit about 9x.

yes I understand what you are explaining and it makes sense but then the sentence should have been
Apps will now get a constant 50% of the house edge....up to 50% of 1% of the bank
it looks that this missing part confused me and again maybe because that english is not my native language but that is the reason I ask for ELI5 and thanks again for your input and patience to explain it to me.

thanks also for the graphs where it perfectly shows the point where Investors and App owners are diverging

as I understand and always understood that the Investor gets 100% of the 1% HE if he has full/1x kelly risk

now my question is how much will the app owner get if there is a zero risk bet and the Investor has actually zero risk?

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