Mt. Gox is an unlicensed money exchanger dealing in "crypto-currency." - page 7.

samson

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Quote from: barbarousrelic on May 15, 2013, 11:54:18 AM

Quote from: Kazu on May 15, 2013, 11:14:33 AM

How does Gox need a US license to transfer money when they are in Japan.

How does anybody need a license to transfer money period. At this point you basically can't do business without transferring money.

They need an American license when doing business with Americans in America.

So in prosecuting MtGox for not having a money changing license, is there a legal precedent being set here that Bitcoin fits the government's definition of "money" ?

As far as I can see the money exchanging takes place in Japan, this is merely a funding method.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: fitty on May 15, 2013, 11:57:28 AM

It has nothing to do with Bitcoin. He was exchanging SOMETHING for USD. CampBX by all reports is properly licensed. Their Dwolla is working just fine.

Of course it has to do with Bitcoins.

Amazon accepts USD for DVD. They also pay USD for DVDs. Is amazon (and every retail business in the world) a MSB? I mean commerce by very definition is the acceptance of money for goods & services.

However FinCEN provided guidance in March, 2013 indicating that virtual currencies* are subject to MSB regulation:
http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html

Thus it isn't that MtGox exchange "something" for real currency but that they exchanged "something which is regulated by FinCEN" for real currency.

Prior to March, 2013 there was no real reason for MtGox to register, post March, 2013 I am not sure how/why (as the worlds largest Bitcoin exchange) they thought they would remain under the radar.

* Only entities which buy/sell/trade/exchange virtual currencies for real currencies fall under MSB regulation. FinCEN does indicate that buying or selling goods & services for virtual currency is not a MSB.

Invictus

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Babysitter government. You need a license for everything. Just GTFO and let the customers decide if they want to do business with a company.

fitty

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CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!

Quote from: barbarousrelic on May 15, 2013, 11:54:18 AM

Quote from: Kazu on May 15, 2013, 11:14:33 AM

How does Gox need a US license to transfer money when they are in Japan.

How does anybody need a license to transfer money period. At this point you basically can't do business without transferring money.

They need an American license when doing business with Americans in America.

So in prosecuting MtGox for not having a money changing license, is there a legal precedent being set here that Bitcoin fits the government's definition of "money" ?

It has nothing to do with Bitcoin. He was exchanging SOMETHING for USD. CampBX by all reports is properly licensed. Their Dwolla is working just fine.

As usual, MtGox is incompetent. It could have been easily avoided, and this is yet another example why people should focus on moving to a different exchange that's actually run by people with a clue.

barbarousrelic

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Quote from: Kazu on May 15, 2013, 11:14:33 AM

How does Gox need a US license to transfer money when they are in Japan.

How does anybody need a license to transfer money period. At this point you basically can't do business without transferring money.

They need an American license when doing business with Americans in America.

So in prosecuting MtGox for not having a money changing license, is there a legal precedent being set here that Bitcoin fits the government's definition of "money" ?

esse83

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According to the documents Mark could face up to 5 years in prison + fine (worst case).

jamesg

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AKA: gigavps

FYI:

You can use https://bitpay.com to cash out coins and have the USD sent you your bank account the next day for 0.99%.

BitPirate

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RMBTB.com: The secure BTC:CNY exchange. 0% fee!

Off-topic: look how far we have fallen since 9/11. I think it's fair to say the terrorists have won.

MAbtc

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Quote from: dexX7 on May 15, 2013, 11:12:47 AM

Quote from: Quantum_Negatum on May 15, 2013, 11:10:08 AM

The real panic sells haven't even started.

Not gonna happen. If their USD accounts get frozen, nobody wants to hold USD. Expect buy-ins and transfer to other exchanges instead.

People keep saying this. I don't know about that. Bank runs happen for a reason. Most people have not picked up on the possible ramifications of this yet. But many understand what happens to the price of bitcoin it something serious happens to Gox.

Man, I had just recently been going over my fears about this... but I thought it was a ways away.

Kazu

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Quote from: Lethos on May 15, 2013, 11:31:02 AM

Strange how it's taken this long to discover Mt.Gox wasn't doing things by the books (according to local laws), as I am fully aware they operate out of Japan, However they do apparently have a US company, with connected US accounts.
Which also the US operations were suppose to been taken over by another company by now, which didn't happen, so they in trouble with that as well.

Their stack of cards seems to be falling apart. Ouch.

There has been a decent number of other exchanges doing the same things shutting every year, obviously not lasting very long, yet they only looked at one of the biggest out there now? Talk about odd. How expensive are the US money service licences anyway, surely Mt.Gox could of afforded them, as one of the largest exchanges out there, right?

It isn't about "affording" anything. Its about the regulations that are imposed and the requirements one must meet to get a license which essentially prevent many businesses from operating.

Miz4r

legendary

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Quote from: KillaMarci on May 15, 2013, 11:20:36 AM

I don't know what this means, but I'm fucking scared right now.

Winter is coming...

You don't know what this all means, but you're scared and think winter is coming... Don't let irrational fears control you and limit your understanding and personal freedom, it's a lesson the US still has to learn.

esse83

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http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Mt-Gox-Dwolla-Warrant-5-14-13.pdf

Severian

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Quote from: blackreplica on May 15, 2013, 11:22:51 AM

Just another american bankster-backed economic terrorist organisation under guise of a licensing authority

Hey now! Don't smear terrorists like that. They'd hate to be associated with banksters.

Lethos

sr. member

Activity: 476

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Keep it Simple. Every Bit Matters.

Strange how it's taken this long to discover Mt.Gox wasn't doing things by the books (according to local laws), as I am fully aware they operate out of Japan, However they do apparently have a US company, with connected US accounts.
Which also the US operations were suppose to been taken over by another company by now, which didn't happen, so they in trouble with that as well.

Their stack of cards seems to be falling apart. Ouch.

There has been a decent number of other exchanges doing the same things shutting every year, obviously not lasting very long, yet they only looked at one of the biggest out there now? Talk about odd. How expensive are the US money service licences anyway, surely Mt.Gox could of afforded them, as one of the largest exchanges out there, right?

esse83

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"Tracing that money, HSI was able to see that the money passed through a Wells Fargo account, number 7657841313, which was created by a single authorized singer: Mark Karpeles, the president and CEO of Mt. Gox. The Dwolla account shows transfers to Dwolla going back to at least December 2011, according to the warrant.

The special agent then explains what appears to be the smoking gun: Karpeles specifically denied he was going to get into the currency exchange business. The warrant reads:"

He probably was too naive to understand his middleman role as a currency exchange. They seem to have a solid case against Mark.

RoadToHell

sr. member

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Quote from: deltanine on May 15, 2013, 11:18:59 AM

Mutum Sigillum LLC is in the US and apparently lied on an MSB form that they weren't a money services company.

They can just say they report to Eric Holder and this will all blow over in a few days.

blackreplica

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Just another american bankster-backed economic terrorist organisation under guise of a licensing authority

Land of freedom my ass (my opinions are not directed at honest americans, merely the terrorist 'leaders' of said country who pull the puppet strings)

It's YOUR US Dollars, yours to do with what you wish. If you want to hand it over to a company based in Japan in exchange for something of REAL value...thats none of their concern

cypherdoc

legendary

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for a real problem to occur you'd need to see CampBx, Coinbase, Gyft, Bitinstant, and the myriad other worldwide exchanges being shuttered.

ain't gonna happen.

Dalib

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A Top Web 3 Gaming Layer2 Provider

Quote from: Kazu on May 15, 2013, 11:14:33 AM

How does Gox need a US license to transfer money when they are in Japan.

just so:

mtgox doing business in Japan
is Bitcoin curency or commodity???

These are just only questions for lawyers

KillaMarci

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Bitcoin Mininode...and proud!

I don't know what this means, but I'm fucking scared right now.

Winter is coming...

Topic: Mt. Gox is an unlicensed money exchanger dealing in "crypto-currency." - page 7. (Read 9339 times)