MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering] - page 287.

Nagle

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Quote from: cedivad on August 31, 2013, 07:59:42 AM

People are arbitrating but the spread is still and always at 10%, does it makes sense?

That's probably about what it costs to arbitrage Bitcoin/JPY on Mt. Gox, JPY to USD at some bank, transfer to the US, USD to BTC on Bitstamp, BTC to Mt. Gox, and repeat.

Before Mt. Gox defaulted on USD payments, the spread was usually under 3%.

Nagle

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Quote from: sturle on August 31, 2013, 04:57:11 AM

I can't submit any kind of proof which you are going to accept. It is a case where proving compliance is very difficult. It would require me to go through every detail of their operations, showing that everything is according to Japanese law (which I don't know). Proving the opposite would be very easy, however. Just find one example of MtGox doing something which is not in full compliance with Japanese laws or regulations. Perhaps you could try that, and agree that MtGox is compliant unless we can find an example of MtGox breaking any law or regulation in Japan or other countries where it is represented (e.g. Poland).

Here's a summary of the Payment Services Act in Japan:

The PSA will allow companies that are not licensed Banks to engage in the business of ‘money remittance transactions’ in Japan provided that: (i) they are registered as ‘fund transfer business operators’ (operators); and (ii) they are able to engage in services to the extent that such transactions fall under the category of a ‘certain small amount of transactions’. Details of the ‘certain small amount’ mentioned in (ii) above will be provided for in the cabinet order. However, in light of discussions at the National Diet of Japan, such amount is expected to be between JPY500,000 and JPY1,000,000 or less. An entity which intends to be an operator will be subject to a registration requirement and certain regulations including the security of its assets and other customer protection measures, supervision and measures against money laundering.

Before this law, only banks could do money transfers. After this law took effect in 2009, almost all the cell phone companies in Japan went into payment services. So sending money from or to a phone is now widespread. All the big money transfer companies like PayPal, Travelex, iRemit, etc. have registered. As of the end of 2011, there were 20 companies in Japan registered under the Payment Services Act.

Mt. Gox has to register under the Payment Services Act as a "Funds Transfer Business Operator", or become a bank or a "financial instruments firm". They're not either of the last two; here's the list from the Financial Services Agency. I'm trying to find the list for the 20 firms registered under the Payment Services Act. That's done by the Kanto Local Finance Bureau. Here's an FAQ for funds transfer businesses. I can't find Mt. Gox in any list of the FSA or the Kanto Local Finance Bureau, and they have lists of every value card, money transfer scheme, and financial institution down to Resident Evil game points. (When a game goes bust in Japan, you can get back your unspent game points as yen.)

Even if they registered under the Payment Services Act, they're doing transactions too large for that category of business.

sturle

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Quote from: joesmoe2012 on August 31, 2013, 07:21:02 AM

Japanese banking law is very strict. I would imagine that any company that is going to be holding customers money in their account would require licenses and to be regulated in japan. Not sure if they comply with this or not.

And yes, to exchange USD without a license means they are breaking US law (even if just for BTC), just as bitstamp is.

Crap, I'm breaking the law in the USSA if I exchange my NOK to USD in another country before I travel to the USSA? Not that I ever would travel there, but I'm sure this comes as a surpise to many people. How can I get a license to exchange my money to USD? Many people do this every day, so I'm sure there is a quick and easy procedure. How can my local bank, which has no presense outside my region with about 50 000 inhabitants, get a license? Do they have to apply for a licence for every currency they want to exchange?

You are trolling, of course. Very amusing.

I don't remember exactly how MtGox got away with not needing a license to hold peoples money. MagicalTux detailed it here on this forum a long time ago, just after buying MtGox from Jed. Something along the lines of: When you transfer money to MtGox is it for the purpose of buying BTC. If you withdraw the money again, either because you decided to not buy BTC after all, or you sold BTC, you can only withdraw the money to your own account. You can try searching for it here on the forum. MtGox is more like a market where you can buy and sell e.g. Magic the Gathering cards (not very regulated), than a bank (strictly regulated).

cedivad

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Well guys, i decided to dive in.
I bought @ bitstamp and i will probably sell on gox.

I will report back how after how long, if ever, my sepa withdrawn arrives.

painlord2k

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Quote from: bliljerk101 on August 30, 2013, 03:52:05 AM

Anybody withdraw to USD (USA bank) in the past 2-3 weeks? I mean a brand new request within the last 2-3 weeks, and received the withdrawal timely?

I intend to start a number of withdrawals soon. Just waiting for my account to finish processing through the verification queue.

ONE withdraw is better than many.

They have limits on the number of wires their bank will handle (without asking for more money for manual wires).
If you do more than one withdraw the first will pass the queue faster, the second will wait 2 weeks (at least- probably three), and so on the others.
Then people start complaining.

It is like people going to the ATM and withdrawing 10$ at time when they want withdraw a total of 200$.
Then lamenting there is a queue in front of the ATM and they are unable to withdraw their money.

cedivad

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Quote from: grovestr on August 31, 2013, 08:03:33 AM

Quote from: cedivad on August 31, 2013, 07:59:42 AM

People are arbitrating but the spread is still and always at 10%, does it makes sense?

10% is a profit for risking money.

10% means that people won't risk their capital because they think there is a probability greater than 10% to lose everything.

grovestr

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Quote from: cedivad on August 31, 2013, 07:59:42 AM

People are arbitrating but the spread is still and always at 10%, does it makes sense?

10% is a profit for risking money.

cedivad

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People are arbitrating but the spread is still and always at 10%, does it makes sense?

posormo

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Quote from: cedivad on August 31, 2013, 05:53:14 AM

Quote from: posormo on August 31, 2013, 05:45:26 AM

Quote from: cedivad on August 31, 2013, 05:41:22 AM

Quote from: posormo on August 31, 2013, 05:07:06 AM

BS, you don't have to sit back and do anything.

We were talking about FIAT.

Ya, change fiat to BTC on gox, and withdrawal. Better than it collapsing as its running illegally according to many in this thread. So get it out in the form of BTC.

We were talking about getting a profit arbitraging. How do you do that withdrawing btc, may i ask?
Read with more attention next time. Thanks.

No, I moved on to people bitching and whining about their withdrawal times and accusing gox of operating outside of the law because their wires are in a queue. Which is what I was responding to. People are doing arbitrage as you can read in a few spots around the forum. The withdrawal as BTC is for those accusing gox of operating in a dodgy manner or accusing them of being on the verge of collapse.

Any way. This is a repetitive topic.

joesmoe2012

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Ching-Chang;Ding-Dong

Japanese banking law is very strict. I would imagine that any company that is going to be holding customers money in their account would require licenses and to be regulated in japan. Not sure if they comply with this or not.

And yes, to exchange USD without a license means they are breaking US law (even if just for BTC), just as bitstamp is.

sturle

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Quote from: joesmoe2012 on August 31, 2013, 06:34:48 AM

Gox also exchanges USD without a license which makes it equally illegally operating.

They need a licence for that in Japan!? I don't need a license for exchanging currency here in Norway, and Norway is quite strict on this stuff. Do you have a reference to the law they are breaking?

Edit: MtGox are actually not exchanging USD to other currencies. You can exchange USD for BTC, which is not regarded a currency in Japan, and exchange BTC for EUR. Avoiding direct exchange of both currencies.

joesmoe2012

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Ching-Chang;Ding-Dong

Quote from: sturle on August 31, 2013, 06:31:23 AM

Quote from: joesmoe2012 on August 31, 2013, 05:31:28 AM

Sturle, where is the proof that gox is legally operating in japan?

Read my answer above. It is more or less impossible to prove given finite time and resources, but easy to disprove if they don't operate legally. Just find an example of MtGox breaking the law in Japan. The burden of proof is on those who claim they operate illegally.

Quote

And how about some proof that bitstamp isn't legally operating in England...?

This is easy. Bitstamp issues electronic money (Ripple USD) without proper licensing, which is a clear breach of the e-money directive which all member states of the EU and EEA have implemented in their national laws. England is a member of the EU.

Quote

Your constant posting of things you honestly know nothing about is starting to really frustrate me. You've never made a withdraw from gox, yet you have more to say on the issue than anyone else...I just don't get it.

I have posted this before, and you are constantly forgetting or ignoring.

I have collected facts, which nobody else seems interested in, and posted them here for everyone to verify. And, yes I have made a withdrawal from MtGox to test if my facts are true. I know it would be stupid, I should have kept the BTC I bought instead of selling them on MtGox or anywhere else, but I did it to test if the facts I have collected hold. So far I haven't find any counterexamples. Just your constant nagging about old transfers, while you neglect to tell about the transfers which went through and put your other transfers back in the queue.

Quote

Also, why are you even posting about the legalities of bitstamp in a mtgox thread...?

Because someone wondered why the price difference is high, and this gives a good explanation of why it is so.

Okay fair enough. I just don't see your motive.

Gox also exchanges USD without a license which makes it equally illegally operating.

But the information you have gathered mainly seems correct so I guess i'll stop being so critical.

sturle

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Quote from: joesmoe2012 on August 31, 2013, 05:31:28 AM

Sturle, where is the proof that gox is legally operating in japan?

Read my answer above. It is more or less impossible to prove given finite time and resources, but easy to disprove if they don't operate legally. Just find an example of MtGox breaking the law in Japan. The burden of proof is on those who claim they operate illegally.

Quote

And how about some proof that bitstamp isn't legally operating in England...?

This is easy. Bitstamp issues electronic money (Ripple USD) without proper licensing, which is a clear breach of the e-money directive which all member states of the EU and EEA have implemented in their national laws. England is a member of the EU.

Quote

Your constant posting of things you honestly know nothing about is starting to really frustrate me. You've never made a withdraw from gox, yet you have more to say on the issue than anyone else...I just don't get it.

I have posted this before, and you are constantly forgetting or ignoring.

I have collected facts, which nobody else seems interested in, and posted them here for everyone to verify. And, yes I have made a withdrawal from MtGox to test if my facts are true. I know it would be stupid, I should have kept the BTC I bought instead of selling them on MtGox or anywhere else, but I did it to test if the facts I have collected hold. So far I haven't find any counterexamples. Just your constant nagging about old transfers, while you neglect to tell about the transfers which went through and put your other transfers back in the queue.

Quote

Also, why are you even posting about the legalities of bitstamp in a mtgox thread...?

Because someone wondered why the price difference is high, and this gives a good explanation of why it is so.

cedivad

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Quote from: posormo on August 31, 2013, 05:45:26 AM

Quote from: cedivad on August 31, 2013, 05:41:22 AM

Quote from: posormo on August 31, 2013, 05:07:06 AM

BS, you don't have to sit back and do anything.

We were talking about FIAT.

Ya, change fiat to BTC on gox, and withdrawal. Better than it collapsing as its running illegally according to many in this thread. So get it out in the form of BTC.

We were talking about getting a profit arbitraging. How do you do that withdrawing btc, may i ask?
Read with more attention next time. Thanks.

posormo

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Quote from: cedivad on August 31, 2013, 05:41:22 AM

Quote from: posormo on August 31, 2013, 05:07:06 AM

BS, you don't have to sit back and do anything.

We were talking about FIAT.

Ya, change fiat to BTC on gox, and withdrawal. Better than it collapsing as its running illegally according to many in this thread. So get it out in the form of BTC.

cedivad

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Quote from: posormo on August 31, 2013, 05:07:06 AM

BS, you don't have to sit back and do anything.

We were talking about FIAT.

joesmoe2012

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Ching-Chang;Ding-Dong

Sturle, where is the proof that gox is legally operating in japan?

And how about some proof that bitstamp isn't legally operating in England...?

Your constant posting of things you honestly know nothing about is starting to really frustrate me. You've never made a withdraw from gox, yet you have more to say on the issue than anyone else...I just don't get it.

Why if you have no interest in this game are you continuously posting crap?

Is this really the definition of a Troll?

Also, why are you even posting about the legalities of bitstamp in a mtgox thread...?

posormo

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Quote from: cedivad on August 31, 2013, 04:44:11 AM

Quote from: posormo on August 31, 2013, 04:36:35 AM

If they were not operating within the rules of Japan they would be shut down pretty dam quick.

I'm sorry, but this is not a proof.
You don't have to "wait in line". You have to sit back and hope not to lose everything in the meanwhile.

BS, you don't have to sit back and do anything. Withdrawal BTC. It works fine. Then you can take your BTC to the nice "safe" exchanges in Eastern Europe and the US.

sturle

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Quote from: cedivad on August 31, 2013, 04:22:22 AM

Quote from: sturle on August 31, 2013, 04:15:21 AM

MtGox is operating fully within all regulations in Japan, where they are located and registered.

Can i ask for some proof of this? Because i've never heard of this, but it could be my fault.

I can't submit any kind of proof which you are going to accept. It is a case where proving compliance is very difficult. It would require me to go through every detail of their operations, showing that everything is according to Japanese law (which I don't know). Proving the opposite would be very easy, however. Just find one example of MtGox doing something which is not in full compliance with Japanese laws or regulations. Perhaps you could try that, and agree that MtGox is compliant unless we can find an example of MtGox breaking any law or regulation in Japan or other countries where it is represented (e.g. Poland).

Quote from: sturle on August 31, 2013, 04:15:21 AM

We do not know who the owner(s) of Bitstamp is/are, or where their physical office(s) (if any) are located. We only have an address to a maildrop in London and a bank account in Slovenia.

We do know who the owner is. Google will help you. He also held a speech at the London Bitcoin last year.

Did he tell why they choose to operate in violation of the law, risking their business and customers money?

Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering] - page 287. (Read 908613 times)