Could the incrowd please stop attacking and accusing everyone who casts a new or different opinion in this thread?
In a discussion arguments are enough.
Topic: NA - page 319. (Read 893613 times)
I mined NLG when it was in the double digits difficulty for a brief time , The value grew strong but now I can't mine it - It's more profitable for me to buy at this point
What ever happens I just want this coin to survive for my next trip to NL so I can finally use some of my stash
Best way for survival - Decentralisation and Cooperation
What ever happens I just want this coin to survive for my next trip to NL so I can finally use some of my stash
Best way for survival - Decentralisation and Cooperation
You contradict yourself a bit. You want it to survive, but don't put any hashes at it. To me it seems you're only in it for the profit, which isn't different than why Clever is in it.
I started mining because of Clever, at a loss (and to be honest, I actually don't like mining that much). Various projects/merchants depend on a short block time, the remaining dedicated miners make sure that doesn't get too bad. I'm also not cashing out any NLG that I'm mining, which prevents the market from crashing. I also want this coin to survive, but at least I'm putting my money where my mouth is.
For crying out loud people. Focus on the main issue... And that is replacing the current broken algo with one that keeps MPs at bay.
It is currently a real struggle to convince those in charge to move from DGW3 to Digi. It shouldn't be a struggle as just about anything would be preferable to what we have now, but it is a struggle. They seem to be coming around but will it be before or after Terk kills the coin? Time will tell.
So....... Forget about cpu mining, multi pow mining, etc. It ain't going to happen. You are just polluting the thread with "fairies at the bottom of the garden" non-solutions. NLG will be a scrypt coin for the foreseeable future. It has built up a devoted base of scrypt miners like myself and a change would mean 99% of current miners would go elsewhere. That would help the coin? NOT.
It is currently a real struggle to convince those in charge to move from DGW3 to Digi. It shouldn't be a struggle as just about anything would be preferable to what we have now, but it is a struggle. They seem to be coming around but will it be before or after Terk kills the coin? Time will tell.
So....... Forget about cpu mining, multi pow mining, etc. It ain't going to happen. You are just polluting the thread with "fairies at the bottom of the garden" non-solutions. NLG will be a scrypt coin for the foreseeable future. It has built up a devoted base of scrypt miners like myself and a change would mean 99% of current miners would go elsewhere. That would help the coin? NOT.
I agree that NLG is scrypt from the beginning and it is preverable to stay that way. But the multi-algo isn't discussed here at anytime. Maybe it is better to leave the discussion indeed as you say, but there are positive aspects as well, that other ways of mining can come in. I agree that it's better to stay at the concept of scrypt now and don't change it that easy. If others find it not wurth to discuss as well, it's ok, but maybe there are more improvements to make. That's why I gave a reply on Gutz, as it seemed good to give it a look at. Not to offend any current dedicated scrypt miners as you are
If there are more cons than pros then we should leave the discussion.
I still think the solution of going to Digi short term as Kilo and Fuse suggested will do good enough for a while and simulating with the simulator will make more improvements later on.
Although I have over 100 idle QC blades in my datacenter, I would suggest not to overshoot the algo-change discussion for now. Mining support, other than Scrypt is not something we want to pick up now, that might be something to take in consideration when we get to the phase where G-J and his simulator are ready, for now I'd be happy with DIGI implementation according to Fuse...
Count me in. If DIGI is a go I support this solution.
Although I have over 100 idle QC blades in my datacenter, I would suggest not to overshoot the algo-change discussion for now. Mining support, other than Scrypt is not something we want to pick up now, that might be something to take in consideration when we get to the phase where G-J and his simulator are ready, for now I'd be happy with DIGI implementation according to Fuse...
- NLG is maturing into the coin for micro-transactions(that is wallet to wallet, small, daily use currency)
- reducing the block time to 75sec cuts transaction times by greater than 50%, speeding up transactions
- reducing the block reward to 500NLG maintains the current number of NLG minted per 24hrs
- increases the number of diff increments by 100% per 24hrs, from 576 to 1152
- reduces the number of blocks a high-hash-rate attacking miner/multipool can mint by 80%
- these changes support the community vision of NLG becoming a daily use currency
- the only down side of this proposal is that the block chain storage requirement would double, but still be less than most alt-coins
If lower blocktimes makes it easier to better the algo, also has more benefits and blockreward is adjusted to the blocktime, it looks fine to me to do that. Total coins will stay the same, so defendable.
Blocktime has been lower at the start before and is now 2,5 minutes. Don't know why 2,5 minutes was choosen. Can the team say something about that? Maybe it's important in the discussion.
These are the things that the simulator should be used for first and should be examined at a later point in time. Good things could be implemented then, things that don't matter could be left out.
Quote
Insert Quote
Sorry for barging in but have you guys considered expanding to multi-pow? ( myriad's style - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annxmy-myriad-multi-algo-fair-secure-483515 / http://www.reddit.com/r/myriadcoin )
Sorry for barging in but have you guys considered expanding to multi-pow? ( myriad's style - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annxmy-myriad-multi-algo-fair-secure-483515 / http://www.reddit.com/r/myriadcoin )
What's with the push for change, people? Why the need to copy every other coin? At least explain it shortly why we should consider it.
Lets keep it simple, do the digishield change so the coin can move forward. Then the simulator can be worked on at the devs own pace, right now the dev isn't able to put in the hours to get the simulator where it needs to be to test to the algorithm change. This is causing major dev lag especially on the iOS Apple Store front.
Quote
What's with the push for change, people? Why the need to copy every other coin? At least explain it shortly why we should consider it.
No push , I've been following the situation for quite some time now and it's about the third time I think about suggesting it ( always marked it as considered )
I'm a long time supporter of both coins - Just thought to "marry" them
I mined NLG when it was in the double digits difficulty for a brief time , The value grew strong but now I can't mine it - It's more profitable for me to buy at this point
What ever happens I just want this coin to survive for my next trip to NL so I can finally use some of my stash
Best way for survival - Decentralisation and Cooperation
- NLG is maturing into the coin for micro-transactions(that is wallet to wallet, small, daily use currency)
- reducing the block time to 75sec cuts transaction times by greater than 50%, speeding up transactions
- reducing the block reward to 500NLG maintains the current number of NLG minted per 24hrs
- increases the number of diff increments by 100% per 24hrs, from 576 to 1152
- reduces the number of blocks a high-hash-rate attacking miner/multipool can mint by 80%
- these changes support the community vision of NLG becoming a daily use currency
- the only down side of this proposal is that the block chain storage requirement would double, but still be less than most alt-coins
If lower blocktimes makes it easier to better the algo, also has more benefits and blockreward is adjusted to the blocktime, it looks fine to me to do that. Total coins will stay the same, so defendable.
Blocktime has been lower at the start before and is now 2,5 minutes. Don't know why 2,5 minutes was choosen. Can the team say something about that? Maybe it's important in the discussion.
These are the things that the simulator should be used for first and should be examined at a later point in time. Good things could be implemented then, things that don't matter could be left out.
Quote
Insert Quote
Sorry for barging in but have you guys considered expanding to multi-pow? ( myriad's style - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annxmy-myriad-multi-algo-fair-secure-483515 / http://www.reddit.com/r/myriadcoin )
Sorry for barging in but have you guys considered expanding to multi-pow? ( myriad's style - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annxmy-myriad-multi-algo-fair-secure-483515 / http://www.reddit.com/r/myriadcoin )
What's with the push for change, people? Why the need to copy every other coin? At least explain it shortly why we should consider it.
For crying out loud people. Focus on the main issue... And that is replacing the current broken algo with one that keeps MPs at bay.
It is currently a real struggle to convince those in charge to move from DGW3 to Digi. It shouldn't be a struggle as just about anything would be preferable to what we have now, but it is a struggle. They seem to be coming around but will it be before or after Terk kills the coin? Time will tell.
So....... Forget about cpu mining, multi pow mining, etc. It ain't going to happen. You are just polluting the thread with "fairies at the bottom of the garden" non-solutions. NLG will be a scrypt coin for the foreseeable future. It has built up a devoted base of scrypt miners like myself and a change would mean 99% of current miners would go elsewhere. That would help the coin? NOT.
It is currently a real struggle to convince those in charge to move from DGW3 to Digi. It shouldn't be a struggle as just about anything would be preferable to what we have now, but it is a struggle. They seem to be coming around but will it be before or after Terk kills the coin? Time will tell.
So....... Forget about cpu mining, multi pow mining, etc. It ain't going to happen. You are just polluting the thread with "fairies at the bottom of the garden" non-solutions. NLG will be a scrypt coin for the foreseeable future. It has built up a devoted base of scrypt miners like myself and a change would mean 99% of current miners would go elsewhere. That would help the coin? NOT.
Make sure to look at this as well
http://myriadplatform.org/multi-vpow/
As for your questions I can give you some uneducated answers , But I think you'd be best to talk to one of the devs ( you can just post your questions on reddit , it's active )
Stats : http://myriad.p2pool.geek.nz/home
http://myriadplatform.org/multi-vpow/
As for your questions I can give you some uneducated answers , But I think you'd be best to talk to one of the devs ( you can just post your questions on reddit , it's active )
Stats : http://myriad.p2pool.geek.nz/home
Thanks for posting. Maybe we can discuss this here. It can get a lot more dedicated miningpower in for NLG, I think.
Make sure to look at this as well
http://myriadplatform.org/multi-vpow/
As for your questions I can give you some uneducated answers , But I think you'd be best to talk to one of the devs ( you can just post your questions on reddit , it's active )
Stats : http://myriad.p2pool.geek.nz/home
*btw the network was "hit" by paycoin multipools in the last few days ( record hashrates on sha-256 ) , it held up great
http://myriadplatform.org/multi-vpow/
As for your questions I can give you some uneducated answers , But I think you'd be best to talk to one of the devs ( you can just post your questions on reddit , it's active )
Stats : http://myriad.p2pool.geek.nz/home
*btw the network was "hit" by paycoin multipools in the last few days ( record hashrates on sha-256 ) , it held up great
Sorry for barging in but have you guys considered expanding to multi-pow? ( myriad's style - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annxmy-myriad-multi-algo-fair-secure-483515 / http://www.reddit.com/r/myriadcoin )
Searched this thread , couldn't find any reference
Searched this thread , couldn't find any reference
mmmm... I see see also pow and 2,5 minutes blocktime and same blockreward of 1000. Maybe interesting to look at, but it seems that 5 algo's make it more difficult to control all of the different possibilities of mining. Maybe it'is ok, because it levels out over 5 algo's. Also 5 times faster blockfind on average? Or is the total blocktime still 2,5 minutes on average? Advantage is that more dedicated miningpower will come in for NLG and scryptmining is still there. Also the same blockreward of 1000. Are there any statstics to see how stable the network is?
Specifications
Proof of Work:
Scrypt, SHA256D, Qubit, Skein or Myriad-Groestl
Block time: 2.5 minutes per algorithm (30 second average over 5 algos)
Each algorithm has separate difficulty
Initial block reward: 1000
Difficulty adjusts every block
How it works
Each proof of work algorithm has its own independent difficulty.
Any algorithm can find the next block.
All the algorithms use the same difficulty adjustment method.
On average, each algorithm has the same chance of finding the next block.
Each algorithm aims for a block generation time of 2.5 minutes.
Over the five algorithms, a block should be found on average every 30 seconds.
Sorry for barging in but have you guys considered expanding to multi-pow? ( myriad's style - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annxmy-myriad-multi-algo-fair-secure-483515 / http://www.reddit.com/r/myriadcoin )
Searched this thread , couldn't find any reference
Searched this thread , couldn't find any reference
- NLG is maturing into the coin for micro-transactions(that is wallet to wallet, small, daily use currency)
- reducing the block time to 75sec cuts transaction times by greater than 50%, speeding up transactions
- reducing the block reward to 500NLG maintains the current number of NLG minted per 24hrs
- increases the number of diff increments by 100% per 24hrs, from 576 to 1152
- reduces the number of blocks a high-hash-rate attacking miner/multipool can mint by 80%
- these changes support the community vision of NLG becoming a daily use currency
- the only down side of this proposal is that the block chain storage requirement would double, but still be less than most alt-coins
If lower blocktimes makes it easier to better the algo, also has more benefits and blockreward is adjusted to the blocktime, it looks fine to me to do that. Total coins will stay the same, so defendable.
Blocktime has been lower at the start before and is now 2,5 minutes. Don't know why 2,5 minutes was choosen. Can the team say something about that? Maybe it's important in the discussion.
I have had 3 hours of sleep in the past 48 hours and driven over 1000klms delivering produce to the markets... so this post may be insulting and will be blunt... I ask for your consideration and understanding before replying -
1. GJ - his work on the simulator and 'ultimate diff algo' is absolutely of vital importance and should continue. Sadly, the tyranny of time and distance is preventing me from working closely with GJ.
2. - Digishield aka GuldenShield - this implementation should always be looked at as a stop gap to allow GJ the time and breathing space to perfect GuldenShield V2.
3. - I know how a network and blockchain works intimately, I have spent over 12 months as miner studying and testing networks and exploits. I have the knowledge and the resources to test any diff algo at a level usually referred to as brute force.
4. - the response to my radical proposal proves that most of you have not been paying attention to my posts for the past few months. There is huge disparity between the intended use of NLG and the technical specifications of the network. NLG is a blatant copy and paste of LTC, look at the codebase, with the change to single block retargeting.
5. - the strength of NLG lies in the community, it is without peer. The community is why I support NLG completely and I am even bothering to type this post. But NLG could be so much more if we matched the technical specs of the coin to the community vision.
6. - why did I make a radical proposal -
7. - NLG has my 100% support, hash-rate and vision.
8. - I am completely opposed to changing from Scrypt, halving miners rewards over the 24hrs or long-term, or any manipulation attempts to increase the value of NLG by change coin variables. What I am proposing may change the value of NLG, I could care less, but the changes will make NLG a much better coin for the community vision of NLG becoming a daily use currency.
9. - I am content with only changing the diff algo if that is the community decision. The radical proposal is a simple change of a few numbers in a few lines of code and would also make GJ job easier with the diff algo easier. I spoken to Fuse about the variables needed to Digishield if the community want to do something radical and implement my proposal, he can explain
It is time for NLG to take the next steps in becoming the premier alt-coin.
1. GJ - his work on the simulator and 'ultimate diff algo' is absolutely of vital importance and should continue. Sadly, the tyranny of time and distance is preventing me from working closely with GJ.
2. - Digishield aka GuldenShield - this implementation should always be looked at as a stop gap to allow GJ the time and breathing space to perfect GuldenShield V2.
3. - I know how a network and blockchain works intimately, I have spent over 12 months as miner studying and testing networks and exploits. I have the knowledge and the resources to test any diff algo at a level usually referred to as brute force.
4. - the response to my radical proposal proves that most of you have not been paying attention to my posts for the past few months. There is huge disparity between the intended use of NLG and the technical specifications of the network. NLG is a blatant copy and paste of LTC, look at the codebase, with the change to single block retargeting.
5. - the strength of NLG lies in the community, it is without peer. The community is why I support NLG completely and I am even bothering to type this post. But NLG could be so much more if we matched the technical specs of the coin to the community vision.
6. - why did I make a radical proposal -
- NLG is maturing into the coin for micro-transactions(that is wallet to wallet, small, daily use currency)
- reducing the block time to 75sec cuts transaction times by greater than 50%, speeding up transactions
- reducing the block reward to 500NLG maintains the current number of NLG minted per 24hrs
- increases the number of diff increments by 100% per 24hrs, from 576 to 1152
- reduces the number of blocks a high-hash-rate attacking miner/multipool can mint by 80%
- these changes support the community vision of NLG becoming a daily use currency
- the only down side of this proposal is that the block chain storage requirement would double, but still be less than most alt-coins
7. - NLG has my 100% support, hash-rate and vision.
8. - I am completely opposed to changing from Scrypt, halving miners rewards over the 24hrs or long-term, or any manipulation attempts to increase the value of NLG by change coin variables. What I am proposing may change the value of NLG, I could care less, but the changes will make NLG a much better coin for the community vision of NLG becoming a daily use currency.
9. - I am content with only changing the diff algo if that is the community decision. The radical proposal is a simple change of a few numbers in a few lines of code and would also make GJ job easier with the diff algo easier. I spoken to Fuse about the variables needed to Digishield if the community want to do something radical and implement my proposal, he can explain
It is time for NLG to take the next steps in becoming the premier alt-coin.
You had my attention here 24Kilo, thanks for the post and thanks for your hard work!! Also at all the rest off course, I am proud to be part of this community!!
Let's bring NLG to the next level!
It's very hard to define an "exact" algo to take care of the diff issue in my view. It's rather a static math problem but a real time matter involving with time-relevant situations; every algo can only solve part of issue at one time. A "perfect" algo should be smart enough to predicate the 'next' diff before it actually happens which is rather clueless since you'd never know the input, i.e., the actual hash rate. "Accurate" adjustment is possible in applications, for example, under a stable environment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller). Any efforts coping with the dynamic environment barely leads to convergence. It could lead to improvement but rather a solution. Diff adjustment in all existing algo is based on past blocks which actually tell what they did are just rough guess. My simple tip is trial-and-error, implementing adjustment particularly for the issue you had and then further optimization if needed later on.
Darn, what a read of the last few pages
Thanks to Fuse to finally show the code and thanks to 24Kilo for his details arguments and his big help modding the code for NLG.
Both, DGW3 and DigiShield, are not that complicated to understand.
Simple said:
Our DGW3 uses an average diff of the interval and a summed up time of blocks to calculate the next diff. A little code cleanup and correcting the obvious make it looking better but there is still something in there that makes it overreacting under certain conditions. The slower reaction to a spike is caused by the diff average and (from what I understood) intended by the developer to smooth the swings.
DigiShield takes the diff of the last block and the time diff between first and last block in the interval to calculate the next diff. The original version is retargeting the diff only once per interval. We need it to retarget every block and the modded version does it.
In the modified code I saw an additional line in there (called 'amplitude filter') that seems to reduce the used time swings more than the original code (with is still in there) and it uses an interval length of 1?
The last point rings an alarm bell in my head but I might simple be too tired to read it correctly right now.
I think tomorrow I need to do a little code cleaning here too and than read and think about it again.
That said, I am all for this quick solution even if that means we have to change the diff algo in a few months again. It buys us time to work on the next NLG diff algo and on a simulator that can test hash rate swings like Clever would jump with all it has on NLG.
Thanks to Fuse to finally show the code and thanks to 24Kilo for his details arguments and his big help modding the code for NLG.
Both, DGW3 and DigiShield, are not that complicated to understand.
Simple said:
Our DGW3 uses an average diff of the interval and a summed up time of blocks to calculate the next diff. A little code cleanup and correcting the obvious make it looking better but there is still something in there that makes it overreacting under certain conditions. The slower reaction to a spike is caused by the diff average and (from what I understood) intended by the developer to smooth the swings.
DigiShield takes the diff of the last block and the time diff between first and last block in the interval to calculate the next diff. The original version is retargeting the diff only once per interval. We need it to retarget every block and the modded version does it.
In the modified code I saw an additional line in there (called 'amplitude filter') that seems to reduce the used time swings more than the original code (with is still in there) and it uses an interval length of 1?
The last point rings an alarm bell in my head but I might simple be too tired to read it correctly right now.
I think tomorrow I need to do a little code cleaning here too
and than read and think about it again.That said, I am all for this quick solution even if that means we have to change the diff algo in a few months again. It buys us time to work on the next NLG diff algo and on a simulator that can test hash rate swings like Clever would jump with all it has on NLG.
I have had 3 hours of sleep in the past 48 hours and driven over 1000klms delivering produce to the markets... so this post may be insulting and will be blunt... I ask for your consideration and understanding before replying -
1. GJ - his work on the simulator and 'ultimate diff algo' is absolutely of vital importance and should continue. Sadly, the tyranny of time and distance is preventing me from working closely with GJ.
2. - Digishield aka GuldenShield - this implementation should always be looked at as a stop gap to allow GJ the time and breathing space to perfect GuldenShield V2.
3. - I know how a network and blockchain works intimately, I have spent over 12 months as miner studying and testing networks and exploits. I have the knowledge and the resources to test any diff algo at a level usually referred to as brute force.
4. - the response to my radical proposal proves that most of you have not been paying attention to my posts for the past few months. There is huge disparity between the intended use of NLG and the technical specifications of the network. NLG is a blatant copy and paste of LTC, look at the codebase, with the change to single block retargeting.
5. - the strength of NLG lies in the community, it is without peer. The community is why I support NLG completely and I am even bothering to type this post. But NLG could be so much more if we matched the technical specs of the coin to the community vision.
6. - why did I make a radical proposal -
7. - NLG has my 100% support, hash-rate and vision.
8. - I am completely opposed to changing from Scrypt, halving miners rewards over the 24hrs or long-term, or any manipulation attempts to increase the value of NLG by change coin variables. What I am proposing may change the value of NLG, I could care less, but the changes will make NLG a much better coin for the community vision of NLG becoming a daily use currency.
9. - I am content with only changing the diff algo if that is the community decision. The radical proposal is a simple change of a few numbers in a few lines of code and would also make GJ job easier with the diff algo easier. I spoken to Fuse about the variables needed to Digishield if the community want to do something radical and implement my proposal, he can explain
It is time for NLG to take the next steps in becoming the premier alt-coin.
1. GJ - his work on the simulator and 'ultimate diff algo' is absolutely of vital importance and should continue. Sadly, the tyranny of time and distance is preventing me from working closely with GJ.
2. - Digishield aka GuldenShield - this implementation should always be looked at as a stop gap to allow GJ the time and breathing space to perfect GuldenShield V2.
3. - I know how a network and blockchain works intimately, I have spent over 12 months as miner studying and testing networks and exploits. I have the knowledge and the resources to test any diff algo at a level usually referred to as brute force.
4. - the response to my radical proposal proves that most of you have not been paying attention to my posts for the past few months. There is huge disparity between the intended use of NLG and the technical specifications of the network. NLG is a blatant copy and paste of LTC, look at the codebase, with the change to single block retargeting.
5. - the strength of NLG lies in the community, it is without peer. The community is why I support NLG completely and I am even bothering to type this post. But NLG could be so much more if we matched the technical specs of the coin to the community vision.
6. - why did I make a radical proposal -
- NLG is maturing into the coin for micro-transactions(that is wallet to wallet, small, daily use currency)
- reducing the block time to 75sec cuts transaction times by greater than 50%, speeding up transactions
- reducing the block reward to 500NLG maintains the current number of NLG minted per 24hrs
- increases the number of diff increments by 100% per 24hrs, from 576 to 1152
- reduces the number of blocks a high-hash-rate attacking miner/multipool can mint by 80%
- these changes support the community vision of NLG becoming a daily use currency
- the only down side of this proposal is that the block chain storage requirement would double, but still be less than most alt-coins
7. - NLG has my 100% support, hash-rate and vision.
8. - I am completely opposed to changing from Scrypt, halving miners rewards over the 24hrs or long-term, or any manipulation attempts to increase the value of NLG by change coin variables. What I am proposing may change the value of NLG, I could care less, but the changes will make NLG a much better coin for the community vision of NLG becoming a daily use currency.
9. - I am content with only changing the diff algo if that is the community decision. The radical proposal is a simple change of a few numbers in a few lines of code and would also make GJ job easier with the diff algo easier. I spoken to Fuse about the variables needed to Digishield if the community want to do something radical and implement my proposal, he can explain
It is time for NLG to take the next steps in becoming the premier alt-coin.
Thanks for taking the time
I would say, go for the DIGI implementation now and keep the eventual blocktime/reward changes for later? Not changing too much at once and letting the simulator be of good use in the future?
Icebear
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