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Topic: NA - page 408. (Read 893613 times)

legendary
Activity: 952
Merit: 1000
October 21, 2014, 06:14:59 AM
Review the posts of Criptoe members, Fuse, JohnDec2, and myself in particular, and you find that our advice was not heeded and we were quite confident in the current outcome.

The problem is being over complicated and confused. Give those of us with experience the opportunity to help and I am pretty confident that a solution can be found with minimal pain and delay.

Good post 24Kilo. We need experienced people. We will solve this networkissue with you guys!

We will come stronger out of this and good things to come, don't forget.
sr. member
Activity: 672
Merit: 250
October 21, 2014, 06:07:22 AM
What I can't understand is why the advice of experienced community members whose expertise is in mining and network security is being ignored, and instead the dev team and community keeps running simulations and chasing some elusive solution.

The Criptoe group is a mining group, between the 5 of us, we have nearly 10 years of mining experience using CPU's, GPU's, and ASIC's across a broad range of coins. We have been involved behind the scenes with a number of coins to test and implement code. I have successfully executed time warp, double spends, and 51% attacks against several coin networks to better learn how to keep a coin network secure and healthy. Criptoe is not a loud and flashy outfit, but we all have real life experience with mining crypto-currency.

This is not a 'told-you-so' or a 'we-are-so-good' post, but the dev team did approach Criptoe to set-up a NLG pool shortly after the launch of NLG. I have been mining NLG since it was a difficulty of 2 or so. I have sold less than 10% of all the NLG I have mined. I am most likely the largest stakeholder of NLG in the world. I am still mining and buying NLG. I have a very vested interest in seeing NLG succeed. And I believe that NLG will succeed for all the same reasons each of you do.

I am not active on the Gulden Forum nor have I joined the 1680 Club, because I don't have time to visit another forum. Just like I don't have time for Twitter, Facebook or any other social media.

Review the posts of Criptoe members, Fuse, JohnDec2, and myself in particular, and you find that our advice was not heeded and we were quite confident in the current outcome.

The problem is being over complicated and confused. Give those of us with experience the opportunity to help and I am pretty confident that a solution can be found with minimal pain and delay.

EDIT - the difficulty on the network just jumped from the high 200's to 699... the network will be unusable for a few hours now... meaning that no transactions will be able to be executed or confirmed outside of LitePaid...
legendary
Activity: 1023
Merit: 1000
ltex.nl
October 21, 2014, 05:58:54 AM
Sorry, but I am getting the feeling Guldencoin's planning and decision making is influenced a lot by the (foreign) Mining pools.

Is that really what the Guldencoin team wants?

Exactly the same issue I have with this as well. I started renting hashing power again (~2GH/s now) to combat this. It worked before my "forced" leave, it will work again (check price ramp up from 28 sept to 5 Oct). If more people would do it this, the whole switched mining issue would be non-existent. My last batch of mined NLGs via this way would sell for 630 sat to break even... that is not so much (especially when clevermining isn't dumping so much anymore).

Good one Mike! Some of us are looking into that as well. I also purchased a couple of the new Zeus Miners, expect LTEX on top of the pools again soon ;-)

Maybe we could setup a dedicated 1680-pool for NLG. "Fearless miners ONLY!"  Grin
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
October 21, 2014, 05:40:42 AM
Sorry, but I am getting the feeling Guldencoin's planning and decision making is influenced a lot by the (foreign) Mining pools.

Is that really what the Guldencoin team wants?

Exactly the same issue I have with this as well. I started renting hashing power again (~2GH/s now) to combat this. It worked before my "forced" leave, it will work again (check price ramp up from 28 sept to 5 Oct). If more people would do it this, the whole switched mining issue would be non-existent. My last batch of mined NLGs via this way would sell for 630 sat to break even... that is not so much (especially when clevermining isn't dumping so much anymore).

I rented 210MHs for 3 days.
legendary
Activity: 1658
Merit: 1001
October 21, 2014, 05:34:20 AM
Sorry, but I am getting the feeling Guldencoin's planning and decision making is influenced a lot by the (foreign) Mining pools.

Is that really what the Guldencoin team wants?

Exactly the same issue I have with this as well. I started renting hashing power again (~2GH/s now) to combat this. It worked before my "forced" leave, it will work again (check price ramp up from 28 sept to 5 Oct). If more people would do it this, the whole switched mining issue would be non-existent. My last batch of mined NLGs via this way would sell for 630 sat to break even... that is not so much (especially when clevermining isn't dumping so much anymore).
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
October 21, 2014, 05:06:39 AM
Sorry, but I am getting the feeling Guldencoin's planning and decision making is influenced a lot by the (foreign) Mining pools.

Is that really what the Guldencoin team wants?

What happened to the primary goal of Guldencoin to become the new digital currency for the Dutch people to be used in daily life in stores in The Netherlands?

The foreign pools and their miners are in for trading and making a buck, -and that is fine-, but is not really helping the Guldencoin goal mentioned above.

Maybe Guldencoin could work out a way to have more NLG distributed among the Dutch.
There are already a lot of merchants but far too little Dutch consumers having a wallet or even using NLG.

If we can increase the number of Guldencoin users in The Netherlands, it will boost the coin and also the value for the current big holders and miners that might not like this domestic focus.

How about starting a free distribution model among open wallets with IP's coming from The Netherlands? (like the new MCL coin is doing rather sucesfully at this time with over 5000 wallets in less than 2 weeks; every hour 5000 coins are divided by the number of opened wallets) If we would start such a campaign through social media informing the people to download and keep the the Guldencoin wallet open from i.e. 1 nov to 1 dec. to receive a percentage of coins [x coins every hour/divided by the number of open wallets] that could become a big hype and boost for Guldencoin.

Or maybe change to a cpu-mining algo like M7M (see XMG) to make mining more fair.



Proof of Dutch eh? Haha. I hear what you are saying. Mining is an important aspect of the network though, but your points are also valid. We're at some sort of crossroads. More users outside of cryptocurrency is what's needed in my opinion. And getting NLG used in NL as currency is still going on, Bitcointalk forums aren't really the place to follow Guldencoin's progress all too much. If you go to guldencoinforum.com (also have an English section) you'll see there is more done than just the DGW3.

To let everyone know. I've been contacting a lot of merchants and there will be a few new ones installing NLG and BTC in their checkout system in the next following days. Some also signed up for the official forums. Official big announcements will follow of course Wink

One more thing:
Litepaid has a referral system that pays out a percentage of each transaction fee and total purchase amount from merchants you bring on. The best part is. They pay out in Bitcoin, Litecoin and you guessed it Guldencoin! Even more incentive to get merchants now Wink
legendary
Activity: 1023
Merit: 1000
ltex.nl
October 21, 2014, 05:00:06 AM

Time to put our Guldens where our mouth is  Wink

Did you hear something from nite yet?

Not yet, and I mailed him to his direct address, but this might draw his attention ;-)
legendary
Activity: 1023
Merit: 1000
ltex.nl
October 21, 2014, 04:58:50 AM
Sorry, but I am getting the feeling Guldencoin's planning and decision making is influenced a lot by the (foreign) Mining pools.

Is that really what the Guldencoin team wants?

What happened to the primary goal of Guldencoin to become the new digital currency for the Dutch people to be used in daily life in stores in The Netherlands?

The foreign pools and their miners are in for trading and making a buck, -and that is fine-, but is not really helping the Guldencoin goal mentioned above.

Maybe Guldencoin could work out a way to have more NLG distributed among the Dutch.
There are already a lot of merchants but far too little Dutch consumers having a wallet or even using NLG.


If we can increase the number of Guldencoin users in The Netherlands, it will boost the coin and also the value for the current big holders and miners that might not like this domestic focus.

How about starting a free distribution model among open wallets with IP's coming from The Netherlands? (like the new MCL coin is doing rather sucesfully at this time with over 5000 wallets in less than 2 weeks; every hour 5000 coins are divided by the number of opened wallets) If we would start such a campaign through social media informing the people to download and keep the the Guldencoin wallet open from i.e. 1 nov to 1 dec. to receive a percentage of coins [x coins every hour/divided by the number of open wallets] that could become a big hype and boost for Guldencoin.

Or maybe change to a cpu-mining algo like M7M (see XMG) to make mining more fair.


work is in progress my friend, but at present time attention needs to be devided. But in case you have forgotten....:





Sometimes, when following a coin with a long term vision, one has to practice patience  Wink
hero member
Activity: 886
Merit: 504
October 21, 2014, 04:47:59 AM
Sorry, but I am getting the feeling Guldencoin's planning and decision making is influenced a lot by the (foreign) Mining pools.

Is that really what the Guldencoin team wants?

What happened to the primary goal of Guldencoin to become the new digital currency for the Dutch people to be used in daily life in stores in The Netherlands?

The foreign pools and their miners are in for trading and making a buck, -and that is fine-, but is not really helping the Guldencoin goal mentioned above.

Maybe Guldencoin could work out a way to have more NLG distributed among the Dutch.
There are already a lot of merchants but far too little Dutch consumers having a wallet or even using NLG.

If we can increase the number of Guldencoin users in The Netherlands, it will boost the coin and also the value for the current big holders and miners that might not like this domestic focus.

How about starting a free distribution model among open wallets with IP's coming from The Netherlands? (like the new MCL coin is doing rather sucesfully at this time with over 5000 wallets in less than 2 weeks; every hour 5000 coins are divided by the number of opened wallets) If we would start such a campaign through social media informing the people to download and keep the the Guldencoin wallet open from i.e. 1 nov to 1 dec. to receive a percentage of coins [x coins every hour/divided by the number of open wallets] that could become a big hype and boost for Guldencoin.

Or maybe change to a cpu-mining algo like M7M (see XMG) to make mining more fair.

sr. member
Activity: 393
Merit: 250
October 21, 2014, 04:41:24 AM

Time to put our Guldens where our mouth is  Wink

Did you hear something from nite yet?
legendary
Activity: 1023
Merit: 1000
ltex.nl
October 21, 2014, 04:36:23 AM

Time to put our Guldens where our mouth is  Wink
sr. member
Activity: 672
Merit: 250
October 21, 2014, 04:13:55 AM
Apologies for the short reply... but any retarget method that rejects blocks based on time(example - reject a block that is found less than 60(or whatever number you choose) seconds after the previous block... is a huge exploit and leaves the network wide open for a fatal attack... both time warp and double spend.

Here is my recommendation...

Bring Terk and Clevermining on board, so we can real world test the algo and either tweak DGW3 or implement Digishield which has been successfull in POT.

I am opposed to IP banning, but if that is what needs to be done to protect the network and is the voice of the community, then so be it.

NLG has become virtually unusable... more damage is being done by doing nothing than by openly admitting that we are looking for a solution and announcing that there will be a period weeks or months of code and wallet updates to find a solution... being proactive and vocal will let the wider community know that NLG is adapting and maturing, if there are some growing pains.
sr. member
Activity: 249
Merit: 250
October 21, 2014, 03:30:25 AM

"He said he "has an obligation to his miners",
"We shouldn't be trying to cater to the multipools needs. Cut clever out of the game and say "we have an obligation to our community".

-Fuse

This. If he's nice, we'll ne nicer, he wants to play hard? We'll play harder, find some way and cut this shit, cut the multipools somehow and get it done, stay on target, finish the mission, allways.
sr. member
Activity: 409
Merit: 250
October 21, 2014, 03:22:17 AM
replied inline in green


Rejecting blocks
This sounds like a good idea, but I'm afraid it can be bypassed fairly easy. A multi-pool could implement some software to premine blocks with future timestamps, and broadcast those future blocks when the time is right (while the actual mining machines are working on different blocks on a different coin). So in the end, it will still result in multi-pools getting a lot of blocks.
Right now a jumpool gets 80+% of the coins in a couple of minutes. Even if such pool mines in advance and drops the block after the timeout expires and we asume a timeout of 75 seconds he could not mine more than 1 block every 75 seconds and thus his gains lower dramaticaly. He would have to adjust his software to act as you described but always have 10 fold less profitaility as other coins. The premining of blocks can be further prevented by randomising the timeout. If he mines in advance he can drop the block till it's accepted but cannot mine the next because he does not know in advance if he's at the right time, if another miner was lucky to be the first, hashing in advance is useless because the next block would not match.So  thats not a problem the real problem can be higher vulnerability to timewarp and a proper calculation has to be done for that
How would you randomise the timeout? The consensus algorithm for bitcoin/guldencoin is that the miner creates the blocks, and the data is confirmed by all other nodes. So the miner would decide the 'random', and no-one could check if it is truly random. One could use the block hash as input for the timeout time calculation, that would make it pseudo-random I guess.. But in both cases: the miner knows the new timeout, and can directly start mining the next block, he doesn't even have to broadcast the first block yet (giving other miners a huge disadvantage). In the end, a multi-GH/s pool can mine a 'perfect' row of blocks in advance, while the dedicated miners have just a few blocks, and will lose in a chainsplit.

Time based block reward
When the block reward is based on the seconds that have past since the previous block, it will discourage multi pools to mine a lot of blocks at once, as it won't be profitable since the reward will be low.
For example: 150 seconds since last block would reward 1000 NLG and 15 seconds would reward 100 NLG.
As pointed out by ny2cafuse: the downside is that "lucky" blocks will have a smaller reward. On the other side, we could change the max block reward to 2000 NLG (rewarded at a block being 300 seconds after the previous block). This means that in the end exactly 1000 NLG per 150 seconds would be generated, regardless of "lucky" or "bad-luck" blocks or jumping pools. To me it's still unclear if there are exploits with this approach (for instance: invalid block times to receive more coins).
Like I said before NO limits. If there is a very tough block it is a huge incentive to gain thousands of NLG to mine it. Limiting does affect the coin supply. Here again the small miners benefit because they also can have the jackpot when their pool finds a tough block. Okay the luck factor changed from lucky to find a NLG 1000 block in three seconds to finding a NLG 10000 block in 15 minutes, but it's still there. There maybe a drawback however, right now clever stops at high diff but in this case he can wait till the blocktime is over 150+ seconds and wham mines that block fast, waits, leaves the easy low value for the small miners and hits again when the blocktime goes over 150some secs.
I think there should be a limit but it should be higher, maybe 10.000 NLG for a block that is 1500 seconds after previous block. The reason I want a limit at some point is because otherwise a huge pool could exploit the system by creating a huge diff (getting small miners stuck), waiting a few hours, then mining that one huge-diff block worth 100.000 NLG.


Beside all these solutions I still think the problem is the way DGW3 is implemented. It just does not react the way it should and that has nothing to do with being designed for... Because its a counting algo based on the last 24 blocks. One thing that also keeps me busy is the fact that KGW did not work properly either so maybe the solution is at some totally other place in the code. You sometimes see the same strange behaviour when variables are used outside the memory space and overwritten by some other procedure
DGW3 was not modified, except for some code comments and alignment. It looks like DGW3 is calculating correctly, the problem is that it was not created for jump pools at this scale. I have been thinking about increasing the number of blocks into calculation (currently 24). But I'm affraid that it will only result in multipools getting more blocks before the diff spikes. What do you think?
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1000
October 21, 2014, 03:20:22 AM
Social media project


https://www.thunderclap.it/projects/17235-de-gulden-is-weer-terug

7 left

3 days to the end
sr. member
Activity: 332
Merit: 250
October 21, 2014, 02:47:30 AM
sr. member
Activity: 1701
Merit: 308
October 21, 2014, 02:10:34 AM
A lot of good coins are in the process of going POS, even Noble because of the same problems they have. Is this a possible solution for the team? I know the miners will most likely not support the coin anymore because it hurts there own pockets but POS should be a backup plan if there isn't going to be a solution on the mining front.

I dont like pos as this will make rich only richer at this point there to little distribution. If pow works more people have a fair chance of minting coins  Just my opinion.

Can I give some pointers to look into before looking at POS.

1. Look at POW coins with similar marketcap to guldencoin.
2. Once you have that list, see which coins have similar block times around 150 seconds.
3. Then check how their blocktimes fluctuate compared to Guldencoin.

I know most basic scrypt coins use digishield but maybe those are all coins with 60 second and under blocktimes.

sr. member
Activity: 393
Merit: 250
October 21, 2014, 02:07:15 AM
A lot of good coins are in the process of going POS, even Noble because of the same problems they have. Is this a possible solution for the team? I know the miners will most likely not support the coin anymore because it hurts there own pockets but POS should be a backup plan if there isn't going to be a solution on the mining front.

I dont like pos as this will make rich only richer at this point there to little distribution. If pow works more people have a fair chance of minting coins  Just my opinion.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1000
October 21, 2014, 02:04:38 AM
hero member
Activity: 502
Merit: 500
October 21, 2014, 01:54:11 AM
A lot of good coins are in the process of going POS, even Noble because of the same problems they have. Is this a possible solution for the team? I know the miners will most likely not support the coin anymore because it hurts there own pockets but POS should be a backup plan if there isn't going to be a solution on the mining front.
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