Topic: New Official AMT Thread - page 98. (Read 149453 times)

prostitution is legal correct. it is the act of purchasing the sex that is illigal. soliciting i believe its called. that is why prostitutes rarley get fined or imprisoned unless they find some other reason to. they always arrest the guy.

That is possible. On the other hand I am willing to believe they did have manufacturing problems. The evidence of that sits with those who actually got working hardware. OTOH that could be the fault of bitmine as well BUT seeing as bitmine doesn't appear to have the same problems in that regard, it is what makes me think they really did have that issue. I am in no way defending them. Just making a pointed observation on that specific point. How they handle other stuff is another matter. I am weighing my own options in this because it looks like I would lose out bigger if I wait for the suit to take off. There may be nothing to do. And they cant file for bankruptcy. No court would let them with a pending class action in the mix. Plenty of case law to back that up. I am pretty sure they didnt get millions. In fact I am betting (nothing just pride) that they all of their orders are probably from people here on this forum. Maybe a couple that weren't. But most if not all of their orders came from here and maybe a couple other forums like this one. Of course this is just a guess but it seems likely. Considering that AMT makes reference to bitcointalk on their site at one point (being hacked) might make people curious enough to come here to check things out. Maybe.

IF that's the case I doubt they made the millions being claimed. Again this is an observation based on all the available info we have been piecing together over the last few months (Thanks to everyone involved in all the fact finding you know who you are, roll credits). At most we are looking at them getting a couple hundred thousand to half a million. Nothing to sneeze at, but still hardly millions unless someone put in some crazy ass order in. OR we were getting bad batches of chips (as they also are a chip reseller). This is all unknown really. I am basing this all on what I have been reading here over the last few months. If anyone has other ideas and can back it up with some details that might help this it could make sense. But all I see now is the lawsuit leading to the lawyers getting an assload of money and we get stuck with very little. Cases MUCH MUCH larger than this end with the people getting alot less than they were supposed to...for a recent and similar case check out the 5 toes shoes case. While not technology the case items of misrepresentation and all that are very similar.

So now knowing the score, and the fact that we are likely going to get screwed anyway what could we do? The class action might not reach class. It likely will BUT even when it does we lose out anyway. I might make my own arrangements at any rate just to get it out of the way. To be honest I want this whole ordeal over with so I can move on.

Been saying that since I 1st got caught up in this.
Pre-order issues aside, as with BFL and Hashfast's trouble it all began with the the chips being so delayed. Only difference is that only Bitmine.ch has/had resale agents. At least BFL and Hasfast only shafted their own customers whereas BM.ch spread it around like plague.

Yes here in the states AMT is the Judas goat over the A1 hardware mess and yes the sales practices used are going to have to face the courts. But, in the end Bitmine.ch is the entity that needs to be nailed to the wall. Unfortunately being in the EU that may be a long time coming

Oh and as to why AMT is making the rigs here (including the technobit based ones) instead of importing  fully assembled ones? Import fees. Chips and other components have a hugely lower duty than does assembled equipment.

By your logic prostitution is legal.  A man with $40 really needs a blow job, he meets a lady that really needs $40, they enter into an unwritten contract for services.  I guess everyone ever charged with prostitution forgot to mention the defence of "but they signed our terms and conditions"...

I actually believe that the plaintiffs lawyers will be extremely happy if they defence uses that strategy as it does nothing but help make the plaintiffs case.

Come on bro, you can't just write a bunch of shit on your website and then tell the FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION to fuck off, well you can but it likely won't end well for the company...

Submitted is not the same as class-action being granted. A judge could for whatever reason say it does not fit the requirement. Odds are it does.

For most states there are only a few things that need to be met: Several out-of-state plaintiffs filing the suit, at least X amount of dollars per-plaintiff (for the case against BFL in Kansas it was $10k) and at least 100 other customers determined from company records who would get relief from the lawsuit if ran as a class-action.

Pretty sure that those conditions are met here.

they submitted a document so every one is in the lawsuit .. i spoke to the lawyers ..

but you can also file your own small claims court aside from the class action which I am filing tomorrow .

*edited to shorten post*

i know nothing of the ftc i am a uk citizen alls i know is if i click the terms and conditions not tos (terms of service) i am agreeing to the whole thing as is wether it succeeds any other laws/statutes as its the 'new binding agreement' like a pay day loan that gets you to tick a box or your bank with its un lawful charges. its all fine untill after someone says its not.

in all fairness im a believer of the 'freeman' ethics if it wasnt signed by both partys in wet ink it dosent count for jack no "contract" just 'agreements' and agreements can be bent twisted and broken easily.
and the only thing i am trying to get across is it seems bitmine.ch is the stem of the issue with all subsidiary resellers having the same issues. wether it stems further to bitmines supply or not i do not know. but ALL companys that have any affiliation with similar rigs i.e bitmine rigs, coincraft desks, amt's rigs. all customers receiving rigs damaged, none working, none existent and screaming refund.



how many ppl are in the lawsuit? i seem to think 5-6 individuals. so they would be the only ones to get anything in the event amt are asked to close down? and the legitimate customers whom amt claim to have shipped to (me included still running 2 months in) loose all support and mpp! that defo sucks

FYI Sabre made an interesting point in the other thread. The fact that the other lawsuit still is not a class action yet...at this point its only representing the named individuals.....which means until its given class status we are not in the process. Might be why they are trying to gag them on this. Not sure the details but we don't know anything ourselves so we are cut out of the process altogether. Kinda sucks. But if they go after AMT for everything they have then the only ones to benefit if this is not a class action are the named individuals in the complaint. Least that's how it appears. 

Right there are numerous agreements out there that try to circumvent US Law. This is why organizations like the FTC exist within our legal framework. On a couple of aspects they also cannot pass the buck onto the customer they way they did in those ToS items. Firstly, excusable delay does not mean excessive delay. Those are outlined very clearly in the FTC rules. excusable delays beyond 30 days give the customer the right to a full and prompt refund (prompt defined as 7 days by the FTC).

With the shipping issue there is a tremendous amount for abuse. They could snailmail the shipment in such a way that international shipments can take easily up to 21 days to arrive thereby screwing pretty much anyone in the international market. And running the clock down quick on anyone who bought hardware in the US by using the slowest possible delivery method. Loss or damage by the carrier is THEIR responsibility as they are supposed to insure the product as it in transit. That little shipping bit is the reason why people were getting shitty packaging and all the actions that led to alot of the current problems. Again FTC rules clearly dictate that as well.

Those terms might sound nice to the business side but they have clear contradictions with current FTC regulations. Its not just as easy to make someone sign to something like this. Besides that there is also another side to this. We did not get these terms attached with the sales receipt...OR an option to accept it when we made the purchase. We cannot agree to something we did not see or sign. So in that sense the ToS is null and void. This is why most online transactions require that checkbox to proceed. You see it with new egg and you see it with other companies. Usually once until they change the terms then you have to recheck that box.

A court is not going to give a rat's ass about some bullshit ToS.  Let me break it down, a company cannot take your money for a product that does not exist and then write a ToS that contradicts FTC FEDERAL REGULATIONS and then tell you to fuck off and wait until we are good and ready to send you anything they want at any point.  The whole FTC mail order rule is kinda written so horse shit like this doesn't happen.

Once this hits the real world (ie a court room and not this wild west Deadwood everyone seems to love), a lot of people are going to find out just how bad all the American mining manufactures have really fucked up.  Screwing around with the FTC is going to seem like fun if fraud and or wire fraud charges get brought up in the near future.

What exactly are you trying to argue here?

If AMT ships damaged goods then AMT is obligated to replace them.

If AMT is unable to ship goods due to unexpected circumstances then there should be zero 'liability to the buyer'. 

Two other things to note,  (1)  AMT has never responded in an appropriate way to the return of damaged goods.  We have evidence of this and (2) AMT has never explained to customers the reasons for delays.   No mention of acts of God, etc....

snippets from t/c that all customers had to agree to prior to purchase otherwise no purchase could be made.

all shipping after amt gives it to fed ex is "your" responsibility

"• Shipping Charges; Taxes; Title; Risk of Loss. Shipping, handling and tax are additional unless otherwise expressly indicated at the time of sale. Products are delivered to you Ex Works in accordance with INCOTERMS 2010. This means title to products passes from AMT to you upon shipment. Loss or damage that occurs during shipping by a carrier is your responsibility. You must notify AMT within 21 days of the date of shipment if you believe any part of your purchase is missing, wrong or damaged"


and as far as delays goes "outside of amts controll" i.e bitmine.ch delays or otherwise

" Excusable Delay. AMT shall not be liable for any delay or failure to perform due to any cause beyond its control or the control of its suppliers or subcontractors such as, for example, strikes, acts of God, acts of Buyer, Acts of Financial Payment Processing institutions, including freezing/holding of accounts, consumer payments, and interruption of transportation or inability to obtain the necessary labor, materials or facilities. Delivery schedules shall be considered extended by a period of time which AMT deems necessary due to the event circumstances or cause of delay. In the event AMT is unable wholly or partially to perform because of any such cause it may cancel its acceptance of Buyer’s order without liability to Buyer."

them two claws in their t/c wraps up 90-100% of the cases i believe.

weve had this before where it is in contravention of yada statue law bull but end of the day you agreed to the above as a customer. short n curleys being tugged.

Got you now suckers. Thanks for playing.

Your understanding is incorrect.  AMT has a contract with each customer individually.  Amt also has sales contracts in place with the suppliers and vendors.  Those contracts are COMPLETELY separate.  If there is an issue with the sales contract with clients it will be dealt with between AMT and their customer.  If for some reason AMT's suppliers or vendors have done something to break the contract between AMT and the supplier/vendor it will be dealt with between the supplier/vendor and AMT.  Possibly the damage caused to AMT by supplier/vendor breaking contract may impact the amount AMT could go after but in no way does it matter to the sales contract between AMT and their clients.  You see not a single solitary customer has a contract with Bitmine or IMET or any AMT supplier/vendor but they do have a sales contract with AMT and that is who will pay the price for entering into that contract.  That's just how the world works.  AMT like you have failed to realize some basic business fundamentals.

If you buy a GM car with Firestone tires and a recall happens, do you deal with GM or Firestone.  Of course you return it to the dealership and they happily replace the tires at no cost to you.  What you don't see is that GM is "billing" Firestone for each tire replaced and the labour to install them.  The purchaser deals with whomever they have a contract with, good luck going to Firestone and getting them to replace the recalled tires.

it would be my understanding amt will/can pass the buck down to bitmine who in turn may pass it on to the next in the line. strengthened with the fact amt has said theyr not entertaining bitmine in favor of another supplier. so your class actions *may fall short of giving you more than answers to why amt failed thus far, as if amt can dissolve the liabiliry on to their supplier then nothing will get done other than a judge saying "case closed i find in favor of the defendants" next case "amt vs bitmine.ch" pmsl

The first time this page has ever made it to page two...whoops lol back to page one. At any rate I am guessing there are interesting days ahead for us in this whole saga. Considering the news with a bunch of mining companies this just seems like par for the course. Hopefully this all works out for the best for everyone. Honestly it would just be better if we were made whole. But the class action in all likleyhood just gets the lawyers paid and we get shafted if AMT's inability to meet the class demands falls short. My opinion but seems like one already expressed as it is.

Now if only you asshats had just started the business with normal funding methods instead of using CUSTOMER pre-order money to fund your start up and if you guys hadn't been completely ignorant to your initial investomers you may have been able to avoid the legal ass raping you fellows are likely in for.  Enjoy it, you brought it all on yourselves.

Come to think of it these guys should have just done the exact opposite of everything they did.  I bet in bizzaro world AMT is the MS of BTC mining manufacturing!